WBD708 Audio Transcription

Solving the Unsolvable Problems with Michael Dunworth

Release date: Tuesday 12th September

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Peter Dunworth. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

Michael Dunworth is the co-founder of Wyre Payments. In this interview, we discuss Bitcoin, private keys and the role of technology in advancing human understanding. We also talk about the significance of security, identity, and the evolving nature of society in the digital age, when the challenges of distinguishing real from fake is becoming increasingly difficult.

“Bitcoin’s going to be the key ingredient to humanity going the next level, to something like the unified field theory, which is basically where we know how to control every particle in the universe; and, that’s not that far away.”

— Michael Dunworth

Interview Transcription

Michael Dunworth: "Baby when the lights go out, every single word you might express, your love and tenderness…"

Peter McCormack: All right, we've got a Junseth competitor.

Danny Knowles: We're still recording, we're good.

Peter McCormack: You've got to sing louder than that.

Michael Dunworth: Hey, I'm singing Five.  You guys are British, you remember the band, Five?

Danny Knowles: Yeah, of course.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I remember Five.

Michael Dunworth: Robbie Williams was the sixth member of Five, did you know that? 

Peter McCormack: Was he?

Michael Dunworth: No, he wasn't.  But that was a rumour I heard and I used to tell people that, like I knew it was true.  And I was like, the joke is in the name like, "He's the sixth member of Five!"  It's so stupid!

Peter McCormack: Were Five out here, do people know it? 

Michael Dunworth: Dude, Five were thumping, yeah.  I'll tell you what happened, because before we had the internet, the UK and Australia's charts were very tight, so breaking the UK was really easy for Australian artists.  So, Kylie Minogue, for example, she was huge over there.  She sort of did okay in the US, but generally it was between Britain and we'd just trade talent basically, I think.  But then the internet came out and then everyone could make it to America a bit better and easier, and stuff like that, it seems.  So, you've got people like the kid from Redfern that's just done all those songs of Justin Bieber.  He's smashed it.  He's 19, Aussie dude from just down the road here, and he's got like all these number ones; you know that, "I do the same…"

Peter McCormack: No!

Michael Dunworth: Okay, cool!  There's the soundbite, there you go!

Peter McCormack: All I listen to is death metal. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh, yeah, same!  No, I don't mind, I mix it up.  I'm such an easy crowd when it comes to that.  Anything that just hits the dopamine spot.  Terrible!

Peter McCormack: Dude, it is so good to see you. 

Michael Dunworth: It's really good to see you, it's really cool.

Peter McCormack: I was telling Danny, I was like, "I cannot wait to see Michael".  I even said to your brother yesterday, I was like, "I'm just going to tell you this, I upset Danny", I was like, "Michael is my favourite person I've ever met in Bitcoin.  I've met a lot of people; he is my favourite human!" and I used to get to see you every few months in San Francisco.

Michael Dunworth: I know.

Peter McCormack: And then I didn't for ages.

Michael Dunworth: I know.

Peter McCormack: I haven't seen you in, what, like three years? 

Michael Dunworth: It's been about three years, yeah.  I think the last time it was downstairs and it might have been like the 2020 Bitcoin Conference, or something, in San Francisco, or 2018 or 2019, or something.  But you were there and everyone was there and it was a huge, huge thing.  And I think it was maybe 2019, or something. 

Peter McCormack: Oh man!

Michael Dunworth: Big Bitcoin Conference, San Francisco.  I'm trying to remember; I remember coming to your office and we went, you and I snuck out, we were vaping! 

Michael Dunworth: Yes, that's right.  We went to the back to the fire stairs, or whatever.

Peter McCormack: With our, what were they called? 

Michael Dunworth: The JUULs.

Peter McCormack: The JUULs, yeah, we were down there, and it was like, "You got a mint one?" 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, we got $300 fines for that every time that happened!

Peter McCormack: And I was saying to him, I was like, "No, Michael's someone who's like, he would be an actual friend of mine", because I'd meet you and we don't really talk about Bitcoin because it's boring, geek shit.

Michael Dunworth: No, no, it's just like, "What's doing?"  Yeah, I think we've got something in common when we're in the US and we're both not from there, but we're both from some Commonwealth country, it's sort of like that!

Peter McCormack: Well, look, I've totally missed you and I appreciate every random, like every time I get a random WhatsApp, every few months from you, checking in or talking to me.  I totally forgot you sent me half a Bitcoin and I didn't even claim it.  What a fucking idiot!

Michael Dunworth: Dude, fascinating, that's part of history now.  This is fascinating; I'll tell you why and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole --

Peter McCormack: Let's go down it.

Michael Dunworth: -- but I'll give you something, right?  So, that key that I sent, so that was on the 21st.  f you pull out your WhatsApp, or I sent it to you yesterday, but I think it's on the 21 October 2021, and what I'd done is I'd locked half a Bitcoin at the end of the chain, basically 120 years from now.  And I'd locked it there and I was like, "Okay, cool".  But if you lock that coin there, I need the private key.  I want basically -- the purpose of it was to lock a huge amount of energy into the future, like giving every person today a lotto ticket.  Everyone's got the winning lotto ticket, but we're drawing it in 120 years.  And what I was trying to do was give you the other half, which to pair it, I put half a Bitcoin into the future and the other half into the non-time-locked address. 

So, you've got a private key that generates a Bitcoin address.  So, I locked half a Bitcoin into that Bitcoin address and then a half a Bitcoin into the time-locked Bitcoin address.  And to time-lock, it's called BIP65.  Peter Todd wrote that and it's unbelievable.  It's basically the strongest form of security that we've got digitally in the world.  And what it is, it basically means that this transaction can never ever, ever be spent until this block height is reached.  And that block height is like the year 2140, or something.  So anyway, basically you missed it, but I was recording it.  As I uploaded the private key to GitHub, I was saying, "Hey, man, I'm putting this here for you as a donation to your show", because I didn't really know, I was quite lost at that time, it was two years ago or so, and I sort of didn't know what to do, and I didn't really know where the space was, and I was like, "Oh, Pete's got the show, I'll just try and donate to him".

Peter McCormack: And I ignored it!

Michael Dunworth: You totally ignored it.  And it's funny, because I sent a WhatsApp, a voicemail, as I uploaded this key to GitHub and I was like, "Oh, dude, hey man, I just uploaded that thing for you and uh, oh wait, unconfirmed, oh my God", and you hear me in real time, someone stole it in real time.  So, I uploaded the private key; the purpose of it was to get the private key out there so that everyone has --

Michael Dunworth: Hold on, I've got it.  Danny, do you want to hear it? 

Danny Knowles: Play it right to the mic. 

Peter McCormack: All right, hold on. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh it's a bit of word soup probably, but let's go. 

[Recording plays]

"Hey, dude, it's me, obviously.  Sorry, I'm a bit disorganised at the moment, man.  But I just put it -- this is the doc, I'm unfinished, but it's got a key in it.  The key's got a Bitcoin on it.  Half a Bitcoin is available now, which I just gave you the instructions so that you can send it to yourself.  The other half is locked until block 7.1 million, which is, I'm building this clock thing.  So, don't worry about all the noise that you're reading on the page, but basically it's got the key on it for you.  So anyway, I'll fix up the other part for you as well.  I just wanted to make sure you read this, because I just realised it's on my GitHub, so I'm hoping no one gets it before you.  But yeah, okay, I am fucking sorry to hear about this fuck around man.  What a fucking pain in the fucking ass.  Anyway --"

Peter McCormack: I know what that is!

[Recording continues]

"-- wow, unconfirmed.  Someone's just taken that.  I think someone's literally just stolen it"!

Peter McCormack: It's the kind of thing you would have sent to me and I would have been like, "All right, I'll deal with that tomorrow", and then forgot about it.

Michael Dunworth: Of course.  It's two years later, we're dealing with it!  But the funny part is, so I uploaded that and that was all real time, no BS or anything.  But I've tested it again.  Basically what's happening is on GitHub, and this used to happen when I was at Wyre, if an engineer would accidentally upload their developer key, you'd be like, "Oh shit, their account got drained, or something".  So, you're really conscious of uploading private keys to GitHub because there's, think of these like sentinel kind of spies, like they're just bots.  People have written a programme saying, "Search private key GitHub, and copy paste any results and run them through a Bitcoin thing and if any of them are successful, send them all to this address".  So, it's like sweeping, sweeping, sweeping.  So, I didn't realise but I uploaded that and there's this "ping" straightaway, like instantly. 

It's funny actually, I think at the time, well yeah, anyway, so that got stolen.  That really surprised me.  Because that's like a heartbeat, it's like a heartbeat test.  I want to know, look, whoever's out there, how spying are you; how accurately are you spying; how tight is this feedback loop?  If a private key gets exposed, what's the feedback loop for?  It's gone.  And the premise was, if people are willing to steal it today, I wanted to see how long it would take for someone to steal it, because if it's worth stealing today and the network doesn't break, then in the future it will most certainly be absolutely worth stealing. 

So the premise is, I want this key to live forever so that everyone's got the lotto ticket, basically, and then you've got, let's say, Iris Energy, who we're in their office now, they're going to be a miner.  And so if they've got a private key that's got 50 million satoshis on it when the block reward is 1 million Satoshi's or zero, then they're going to be like, "Well, yeah, you guarantee we're going to include that in a block and we're paying ourselves that amount".  So, what's going to happen?  Everyone is going to sort of hold hands together and be like, "You know what, just to hedge this shit", Iris included.  Everyone is going to be like, "This is too big". 

Like if there were, let's say 3 million Bitcoins in a block today, everyone, Iris, would all shake hands and be like, how are we going to pull this up so that we all chop it up?  Let's compare, push all our hashrate.  And so they'd all pull together because the relative value to what their earning capacity is past, present and future is just not even in the conversation.  So, they have to hedge and kind of band together.  I thought that was kind of a cool way.  It's like, "Fuck, we might get everyone on the same page on Planet Earth just for ten minutes, but at least they're on the same page for ten minutes", because they're all going to be saying the same thing at once, and they're saying the same thing, which is this private key, because everyone's speaking digitally, so everyone's communicating the same thing.

I don't know, I just thought it was interesting.  If we can do that on a persistent ledger, like carving it into stone, I'll tell you what it's like.  It's like going in, let's say Saudi Arabia, 400 years ago and imagine we had a time machine, and we got all the oil production today, we got all these barrels, put them in this big stadium-sized container and bury it in the sand.  Then on top of the sand we put this massive fuck-off sign that says, "Heaps of oil and energy below here.  Dig".  And then today we're like, "Oh, wonder what's under there".  It says like, "Dig here, fuckface".  It's like a treasure map through time.  But so, what we're trying to do is build a treasure map, four-dimensional one, that follows the chain along to the end.  I know I said like a loopy!  Oh man, how do I disappear, like the seat disappearing act?!  But okay, that's the word salad.

Peter McCormack: I said to Danny, I said, "You're going to love him, Danny".  You're going to fucking love -- I missed out on half a Bitcoin!

Michael Dunworth: You missed it.

Peter McCormack: By the way, Danny, you haven't done your Tim Tam.

Danny Knowles: I've finished my drink as well.

Michael Dunworth: Oh, you were meant to --

Peter McCormack: Hold on, all right, there you go.

Michael Dunworth: Can in hand.

Peter McCormack: Right, so you've got to take a little chop off the corner, and then the opposite corner.

Danny Knowles: Is this you winding me up?

Peter McCormack: No, I'm telling you, this is going to open a whole new world for you.  Then do the opposite corner, and then you need to suck the coffee and then put the whole Tim Tam in your mouth. 

Danny Knowles: I'm sorry, it's your coffee!

Peter McCormack: That's all right, until you get the coffee to your mouth, and then put the whole thing in your mouth.

Danny Knowles: The whole fucking thing?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  It'll just go…

Danny Knowles: That's kind of gross.

Michael Dunworth: Kind of gross?  Really?

Peter McCormack: What?

Michael Dunworth: Oh, you don't have any Vegemite on, that's why.  "Oh, that'll fix it!"  Wait, oh, you're Pommy, not American!

Peter McCormack: So, one of my best friends, Tim, Tim Hill, who I went to school with, he went travelling in Australia with his girlfriend, Tam.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah!

Michael Dunworth: What?

Peter McCormack: Tim and Tam.

Michael Dunworth: Wait, actually?

Peter McCormack: No, I swear to God.

Michael Dunworth: Tim and Tam went traveling to Australia!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, they went traveling to Australia.

Michael Dunworth: Best!

Peter McCormack: And he got out of here and was like, "Oh, funny thing, there's these biscuits.  Like, everywhere we went, everyone was telling us about these biscuits".  So, he brought them back, he brought me back a pack.  He said, "Just bite one corner, bite the other".  I reckon I demolished that pack in minutes. 

Michael Dunworth: They're one of like the pride of Australia.  It's like that, like Tim Tams, Vegemite, like maybe beer and then Wi-Fi, the three best things from Australia probably. 

Peter McCormack: I think Tim Tams is your greatest export. 

Michael Dunworth: I think so.  Wi-Fi is a close second, mate. 

Peter McCormack: Wi-Fi? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's Aussie. 

Peter McCormack: Really? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Didn't know that.  Anyway... 

Michael Dunworth: It is now!  No, I'm pretty sure it is. 

Peter McCormack: How've you been, man?  I haven't seen you in ages. 

Michael Dunworth: It's been ages, I've been great.  I feel like you guys have been awesome and congrats on just watching the show grow and all the journey, it's unbelievable to see, so good on you. 

Peter McCormack: Thank you.  Was it you reached out to me to begin with?  I was trying to remember how we got in touch.

Michael Dunworth: I think I would have -- I think you weren't in the space as much yet and you were working maybe on a marketing contract with CoinList or you were going for a job there, or something?

Peter McCormack: No, I was working at, oh, fuck, Science in Santa Monica with Mike Jones.  I was tweeting about Bitcoin and then I was on a flight to LA.  For some reason, he was following me, he said, "Come and see us".  And then I went in and I didn't have any smart clothes.  I went in flip-flops, shorts and a T-shirt.  And then they were like, "Come in and trade for us".  I was like trading for them, thinking I was a genius, just because everything was going up, and then it didn't, so that didn't work out.  But then I did just launch the pod then. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, and fantastic.  What a dream come true.  You've done everything you've said you wanted to do, build a cool podcast, and it's like you've executed.  So, good on you, I think it's incredible. 

Peter McCormack: Good fun, but look, I haven't seen you since Wyre.  I don't need to know about Wyre, I want to know, what have you done since?  You've got thin!  You look younger.

Michael Dunworth: Really? 

Peter McCormack: Yes.

Michael Dunworth: Dude, I feel like I've aged as fuck, man. 

Peter McCormack: No, you look younger.

Michael Dunworth: My hair's grey as fuck, I just feel like I'm turning into Gandalf, or something, like aging really quickly.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but you go day-to-day.  I haven't seen you in person for like two, three years.  You look younger, you look thinner.

Michael Dunworth: Dude, I appreciate it, I'll take it!

Peter McCormack: You're a professional athlete!

Michael Dunworth: Oh, man.  No, so I'll tell you what I've been doing.  Okay, so I was just explaining to you guys before, I'll talk to you about the steps, right?  So, I've been all about walking.  When I came back, so I moved back from San Francisco and I stepped away from my role as previously CEO, and it was time for me to move on because I was out of fumes and they had a lot of better people.  They went and came into a lot better, so it was the right decision at the time.  I came back and I was just like, "I need to focus on my mental health and just I need to get my shit together.  Like as a human being, if my body's a startup or whatever, it's getting treated like absolute trash and run into the ground.  So, let's maybe try and fix it".  So, I sort of came back, had to do this two-week quarantine from COVID, when you come back into the country, and that was in 2020 and I was like --

Peter McCormack: You went into the concentration camps?

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  It was actually a hotel just down the road from here actually, but yeah, it was one of the concentration camps.  So, yeah, we had it so rough, the hotel, yeah, it was terrible, dude.  I'll tell you what was good.  Okay, so here's why I liked it, and it's weird because you open your door and there's a soldier standing there, not like, "Oh, yeah", or something, it's like a soldier.  He's like, "Any questions?"  "Yeah, may I have some fresh air, sir?"  He's like, "Close the door", and you just feel like this stronger hand than yours just squish you closed and feel your will break.  But it was great, I'll tell you why.  It was like when you were little and you got yelled at to go swimming lessons or go run in the park, or whatever it was, but you had to go do stuff, and you're like, "I don't want to!" and it's like, "Get outside and get some fresh air", or whatever.  This was kind of like, "Sit down and shut up for two weeks".  And in a way, it breaks your spirit, because you can't do anything, you can't leave if you wanted to. 

So, you get forced to kind of go, "Okay, well what's important?"  So, if someone asked me, "What's the three things?"  The first thing you want to do is have a family dinner; the second thing is go for a walk on Bondi Beach, where I grew up; and then the third thing was just see my grandma, she's like 700, so you want to see her.  I've been away for like 10 years.  She's turning into Shang Tsung, or whatever, you know the dude from Mortal Kombat that's like 1,000.  That's Goro, I think Goro's like 800, he's the dude with the four arms.  Anyway, so I came back, mental health, like, okay cool.  And what's weird, all that shit is all those three things, all of them are free, none of them cost a dollar.  And that was like the, "Oh, if I could wave a magic wand right now, what would I have?"  And it's like, "Didn't require money, didn't require money, didn't require money".  I was like, "Holy shit, that's so interesting". 

Then after that, I was like, "Okay, I need to spend my time doing something".  So, walking was really important to me.  I was like, "Dude, you haven't exercised for shit in ages.  You've cooked your brain, you've been up early, you've been staying up late, you've been burning the candle at both ends, you're working too much, no balance".  I was like, "All right, cool.  We'll get some shoes and let's start walking".  So, basically the goal was like, "Let's do 10,000 steps a day", or whatever.  You read all this motivational shit and literally, that's what you do.  You just start reading more and trying to understand shit more.  And so from then, that was coming up to four years ago, not four years ago, but it'll be three-and-a-half soon, and I just noticed, I was like, "Oh, I'm mad". 

So, we're coming up to four years and if I do 20,000 steps for the rest of the year, I think I've got like 116 days left or something, then I'll hit 21 million steps --

Peter McCormack: Amazing!

Michael Dunworth: -- which will come out to a hundred steps for every block for four years, which is one step every six seconds, including sleep time, and I just thought that was a cool metric.  I was like, you know, there's no rocket science there.

Peter McCormack: How many steps is a day?

Michael Dunworth: It's not that many.  It's about 14,500, but it's every day.  So, if you miss a day, you've got to do 14,500, 28,000 the next day.  Well, obviously you're going to do a step on any given day.  But yeah, I think it's more just the practice of consistency, whether that was 7,000 and I was doing 2,000 before, or something, I don't know.  But it's sort of more just the premise of just one foot in front of the other for a long time and something should sort of figure itself out.  And I feel like that was -- I really enjoyed that for myself and I got really lucky because the idea is trying to zero off just distractions, just everything, just trying to zero off everything.  I was really confused as a person and all this stuff, going through so much, you feel a lot of pressure nd then you kind of get a chance to take that pressure off and you start learning more about yourself, you start exercising.  

Exercising has got this thing neurogenesis.  I didn't know this was a thing, but it basically is like producing new brain cells, so it's like, "Fuck, this is free".  Dude, where everyone's spending money on stuff, I need brain cells right now.  I'm going to get those things and they're free, which is right in my price range, so I'll take that.  And then you just start walking, just every step more brain cells, you get some free brain cells, free electrons, sun on your skin.  I don't know, it sort of turns your brain back on kind of thing in a different way, but I don't know, I just feel like that was really healthy as a sort of, I don't know; if I didn't do anything else during it, nothing else, and just stay alive, eat and just walk, then it's like, yeah, that's probably not bad. 

Peter McCormack: Dude, I did it, what was it, like eight, nine years ago, after my marriage ended and I was coming off drugs and I had terrible anxiety and panic attacks.  I was having these things called SVTs and I went to the doctor and he was trying to put me on antidepressants.  And I got in the car afterwards, I've told this story a million times, but I was like, I went on my phone, I was like, "Alternatives to antidepressants", it was like, "Running, yoga, meditation".  So, I went and bought trainers, I ran nearly every day for a year.

Michael Dunworth: Best doctor in the world.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, 40, 50 miles a week.  And do you know what?  Within a year, it had all gone.  I felt great, I'd taken time off work.  Obviously, I fucked it all back up and I've stopped running and now I work too much and eat shit, sleep terribly.  But seeing you, like it's right at a time when I've been discussing this, right, thinking.

Michael Dunworth: For a little while now, yeah.

Peter McCormack: I've been traveling for six years now, constantly on the pod.

Michael Dunworth: Dude, you've been burning the candle, you've been doing a lot of work, yeah.

Peter McCormack: It's time to readjust.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, well look, you don't look bad, as long as you don't feel bad.

Peter McCormack: No, I do feel bad.

Michael Dunworth: Oh, you feel bad?

Peter McCormack: I feel fucking terrible!  I feel like shit!

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, well get that shit sorted, let's feel good again.  Happy is the new rich.

Peter McCormack: No, I'm happy, I've got everything I could want in life.

Michael Dunworth: Good, beautiful.

Peter McCormack: I've been so lucky, apart from the health.  I don't go to the gym enough, I don't sleep enough, I don't eat right.

Michael Dunworth: Who's in charge of that?

Peter McCormack: Me.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, doesn't it suck?  I'm realising you're like, "Who the fuck's in charge of this shitty joint?"  And you're like, "Oh, me again".

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's me.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, that's right, this guy.

Peter McCormack: Do you know what?  I think if I found a good woman and actually allowed someone in my life, she would be like, "Pete, get your shit together".  So, that would be helpful, but until that time, it's basically Danny's job!

Danny Knowles: You've got to make this decision yourself.

Peter McCormack: Danny tries, like we'll go away, we'll take, like I pack my gym gear, my trainers and Danny's like, "We'll go for a walk".  We did a little, short walk yesterday and then today, I'm like I'm up and I'm emailing.

Danny Knowles: We did like 700 steps or something!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I felt good!

Michael Dunworth: Hey, better than nothing.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I walked down to the coffee shop this morning and got a sandwich.

Michael Dunworth: Ubered home!

Peter McCormack: But no, look, I'm looking at you now and I'm going, "I fucking envy this".  What you've got is freedom.

Michael Dunworth: Well, yeah, you're trying to find it, right?  I think you find that with your...  Yes, at the moment, I've got heaps of time, and I'm like, I've never had this much time before.  I've never had this much time to think and just take care of life admin, like your body and stuff, and so I'm just capitalising on it before I'm going to get ram-rated without time again at some point in my life, whenever it is.  But a lot of the time, I'm like, man, I'm going to try and get this rig together or just try and get this brain together.  Tell you what's mad, Ironman.  I can't do an Ironman, but there are these like triathlons and they're really long.

But here's the thing, so you're a podcaster, right?  When you do these long endurance events, you can't have headphones and shit.  So, you're on a bike, you can't have headphones because you've got to mind your surroundings and shit.  But the whole time, like it goes for seven hours, your heart rate's at 160, so your energy signature is a magnetic energy thing, it's like, you can't see it, but your brain's throbbing and everything's going.  And then basically it takes so long, it's like you're on a podcast interview with yourself.  Dude, it's the worst.  So, every stupid thing you've ever done, every funny thing, and you're just going back in your life for seven hours and you're getting -- it's like a time warp.

Peter McCormack: Have you done an Iron Man then?

Michael Dunworth: I have done a half.  The half was, yeah, like three months ago, two months ago.

Peter McCormack: So, back when I was doing the running I started doing -- no, even before that, I did three half Ironman. 

Michael Dunworth: Wow!  That's so impressive. 

Peter McCormack: The swim was my problem because I'm not a good, strong swimmer; cycle, piece of piss; the run, not too bad; the swim killed me. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh, man, I'm a total lemon party on the bike.  It's like I've never ridden a bicycle in my life and I've been riding a bicycle since I'm five.  I'm so incompetent, I don't know how. 

Peter McCormack: Did you go buy the most expensive, amazing bike? 

Michael Dunworth: Oh no, I bought the cheapest thing, because I was like, dude, you can't get into this thing.  I was renting it up until the point where the guy was like, "Hey man, can you just buy it off me?"  I was like, "Okay, cool, whatever".  It's kind of like that almost, where you're trying to get away, because all this cycling stuff, mate, I don't know how these guys do it.  They pay $4,000 for a wheel that saves them like, I don't know, whatever, it gives them an extra 1.1 kph on the downhill or whatever it is, but it's these marginal optimisations; every marginal optimisation, $2,000, $4,000, $1,500.

Peter McCormack: What's that book about Team Sky?

Danny Knowles: I don't know.

Peter McCormack: Look it up.  There's a book.  You know Team Sky, they're the most successful cycling team ever.

Danny Knowles: Inside Team Sky?

Peter McCormack: No, I think it was something else.

Danny Knowles: The Pain and the Glory?

Peter McCormack: It's about marginal differences.  Go on Amazon and have a look.  Who's the coach?  Was it Roger Brailsford who was the coach? 

Danny Knowles: I know nothing about cycling. 

Peter McCormack: So, when he took it over and they wanted to accelerate the team, or whatever, they basically looked at every single part, every component of a cycling team, from food, equipment, and every single thing.  It's like, "Where can we make every marginal difference?"

Michael Dunworth: Yes.  Shaved legs versus non-shaved legs, all these tiny things. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, tiny, teeny things, every single thing.  And they did it all and they kicked everyone's ass for years.  There's a book, I can't remember what it's called.  Anyway. 

Michael Dunworth: That's insane.  Three Half Iron Mans, how incredible is that? 

Peter McCormack: I mean, the first one was the hardest.  I remember doing the first one, so I did the British, the UK one, and you end up swimming in St Katharine's Dock, which is fucking gross.  There's like cells of dead bodies floating up!

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, filth, awesome!

Peter McCormack: I vomited and I was slow.  And then, I did the cycle, I came back and I did the run, did the first lap and I was like, great, one to go.  And then they held up the sign, it was actually three to go, there was four laps.  So, in my head I was like, oh my God. 

Michael Dunworth: Your expectations were mismanaged. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I was raising money for this young girl.  There was this young girl who had collapsed at school and got brain damage, so I had her name on my hand, and I was like, "I'll use that as motivation".  I cried at the end. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh, good on you. 

Peter McCormack: I got to the end, my ex-wife, my fiancée at the time, my kids were there, and I was so emotional.

Michael Dunworth: You should have been because you're so proud of yourself.  It's hard work. 

Peter McCormack: It's hard.

Michael Dunworth: It's very hard because it's the day.  The day, what, it takes seven hours or five hours or nine hours, however long it takes a person.  But you got up every morning, or whatever it was, four times a week, six times a week, would have been 12 hours of training, whether it's a swim, bike or run, that whole journey.  And when you go to these events, like the Sydney Marathon's on in two weeks, right?  These events usually start at, let's say, 6.00 in the morning, or something.  The weird thing is, and it's a really healthy thing to participate in for this reason, everything you do in life basically is orientated around money almost, there's some motivation behind money. 

When you go to these events, it's usually on a Sunday morning because it's a free day, and it's 6.00 in the morning.  So, it's 6.00 in the morning on Sunday morning, and every person is there, and they've paid money to be there, and there is no prize for being there, and it's all work.  And the only people showing up, every person there is trying to better themselves almost, and it's like, fuck, that's cool, that's a rare environment.  Like here, you walk downstairs, anywhere, everyone's like, "Beep beep, honk honk, move, I'm trying to make money!" and everyone's trying to step on each other or shit on each other, and you go to this place, and it's almost like everyone's trying to get better.  It's like kind of going to church in a weird way.  Everyone's sort of there for just, "Please help build me better or make me better or give me some peace of mind", or whatever it is. 

Peter McCormack: Oh man, I know this interview is going to really sit with me and I'm going to be going back to the hotel room and be like, "Fuck, got to make some changes".  Because I remember eight, nine years ago, I had a year off work, I ran every day.  Most days I'm doing 10K, I'd do one half marathon a week.  I got slim, got in shape.  I went out to California, Topanga Canyon.  It's interesting, that sparked everything else I do now, because I was out there running, I just went to the canyon to run for a week on my own, but then I was hanging out with Rich Roll and I was like, "How do you do a podcast?"  Fucking here's a podcast!

Michael Dunworth: Unbelievable!

Peter McCormack: But anyway, so I was running, I felt good, I was a vegan at the time.

Michael Dunworth: Wow!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and I was eating well, everything was good.  And then what's happened is work starts.

Michael Dunworth: Everything in moderation, including moderation, but yeah.

Peter McCormack: Let's start a podcast, let's buy a football team, let's buy a bar, let's start doing…  So, in this two weeks, it's fly to Australia, record how many shows?

Danny Knowles: Ten.

Peter McCormack: Record ten shows, have a live event, fly to Lebanon, make a film, hopefully don't get kidnapped.

Michael Dunworth: Hopefully!

Peter McCormack: Book my flights in a way that I can get back for the football, then go up to my bar and check on it.  And I'm like, "What I fucking done?  I've filled my life with shit!"  I love it all.

Michael Dunworth: Wow, you're busy, making hay while the sun shines.  So, I think you're making lots of hay at the moment, yeah, making lots of hay.

Peter McCormack: Not with a football team, you don't!

Michael Dunworth: Well, no, that's a passion project.  But yeah, I heard that's going good.

Peter McCormack: Really good.

Michael Dunworth: Totally fantastic, congratulations

Peter McCormack: Won on the league, second season now, ladies top of their league, men third, men will go top if they win their games in hand.

Michael Dunworth: Awesome.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so need to build a new stadium.

Michael Dunworth: Well, that's a big project.  You're an architect now!

Peter McCormack: Right, your brother yesterday said you're going very -- people are going to be thinking, "What the fuck, are you making a Bitcoin show here?"  He said you're going really deep on numbers. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh, yeah.  I'm loving it at the moment.  It's really enjoyable.

Peter McCormack: Can we get out that tweet, oh, let me forward it to you, Danny. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Can we go through this tweet thread? 

Danny Knowles: Is it this one here? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: One at a time.  The reason it stuck out to me is your brother raised this Millennium Maths Problems and I saw this film a few years ago, what was it called again?  I can't remember.  We looked it up yesterday and it's about this guy who's raising his daughter, no sorry, he's raising his niece because his mum --

Danny Knowles: Is it called Gifted? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, Gifted -- committed suicide and this little kid is a genius and her mum in the film solved one of these Millennium Maths problems.  So, that's the only reason I know it existed.  Your brother brought it up.  He said, you're looking at all this shit, and I want to know. 

Danny Knowles: Should we explain what a Millennium Maths problem is first?  I've never heard of it. 

Peter McCormack: You tell us; is that relevant to this? 

Michael Dunworth: I don't think it is.  I think just in general, the Millennium Maths problem, just to give background, it's basically the leaderboard, not the leaderboard, but there's seven of these problems, and they're $1 million bounty from the Millennium Institute of Mathematics, or whatever it is, or some institution.  They basically said, "These are seven really hard problems, we'll give $1 million to anyone who can solve any one of them".  So this guy solved, I think it was a Poincaré Conjecture, a few years ago, and he was a Russian dude, and he was like, "No, I don't want the money, it's all good, but thanks guys, that was rad!" 

Peter McCormack: Total killer move!

Michael Dunworth: Whoa, beast as fuck!  Just, what a dude, right?!  Anyway, so the other one's the Riemann Hypothesis, which is this very famous problem in mathematics that's said to be, it's got an indicator on the relationship between numbers and prime numbers and all these kinds of things.  So, these are kind of the holy grails, let's say.

Peter McCormack: Could they be not solvable?

Michael Dunworth: I don't think so.  I think maths is too close to its sort of end in a way.  And I don't mean in like, that sounds weird, but maths is like a language to speak to numbers, or to interpret numbers, let's say.  And I think what will happen is, we don't dignify numbers to be a species, right?  Let's say they're not a species.  We consider plants, flora and fauna and stuff, but they've got more of an energy signature in our universe and they contribute to particles and behaviours and stuff.  Numbers, we don't treat like that.  I think we will in the future and we'll treat them more like a species. 

So, when a number shows up it's just like, why do these plants grow here?  It's like, this environment fosters these plants to grow here.  So, it's sort of like the superstition of, "Oh, why does the number 7 keep -- oh, 11.11 keeps showing up on my clock".  It's like, well there is a universe where that is all real.  And that's what I'm basically starting to see, that that's harder not to see than us having free will. 

Peter McCormack: You'll see in numbers. 

Michael Dunworth: Well no, as in like everything's a number.  You're a number, right?  Here's a really interesting thing before we get into this, right?  Numbers are the only thing in the universe that declare their identity.  Now what I mean by that is, you aren't you.  I tell you who you are.  Let's say you and I are over here and Pete walks in.  Then Pete walks in straight after, and then Pete walks in straight after again, three identical yous.  You've got all the same things, you know everything about Pete, Pete's age, date of birth, where was you first time you ate fried chicken, where was the first time you fall off your bike, all the things you'd know.  I stand there and I go, "Which one's the real Pete?"  And you pull out and you go, "Oh, this is my birthday, here's my ID and stuff", but now so do all of you.  So, how do I know which one's the real Pete?  I ask you contextual questions, and so does Danny, and we both ask these questions and we're like, "That's not the real Pete".  And you're like, "I know, I didn't think he'd say that either".  Rule out number three, okay, number three's gone. 

So now it's like, we tell you who you are based on the information you give us.  And this is what happens when you do security policies at companies with, how do we tell you you are you when you're trying to log in?  And so when you see these things saying, "Take a selfie, jump up and down with one foot, clap your hands twice and then wear a pink hat and take a selfie", and all that, that whole rigmarole that you go through, that's to basically say you're you.  And we know that you're you right now.  And so the reason why the selfie comes up is because, I'm sorry, this is pretty sidetracked actually, it's not related, but anyway, the premise of identity is going to become a really big thing, because now if we see AI, right, and everyone knows this, so you've got a lot of digital content.  So your voice is basically one hour's worth of work, effort, and then it's a deepfake, kind of type your own Peter McCormack. 

That's why Elon Musk, Tom Cruise, all these big personalities, Arnold Schwarzenegger, first to get deepfaked because we've got 1,000 Arnold Schwarzenegger reactions, movies, gifs, memes, whatever.  So, the more content flooded on the internet, the faster it is to get commoditised, let's say.  So, now, what makes you you, if the only things that are you are your keys, and your keys are only prime numbers, then prime numbers start taking the cake and the only thing that matters, right?  So, once everyone can impersonate each other, once I can look like you and sound like you, then you become really invalid, you lose value. 

So, if you're very, let's say, you've got a really awesome voice, or you're a really good actor, like Tom Cruise, I can basically download Tom Cruise's model and put him into any movie now, Tom Cruise in Willy Wonka, Tom Cruise in James Bond, Tom Cruise in wherever the fuck I want.  And Tom Cruise goes, just like Spotify or record labels saying, "Okay, cool, we're not getting $30 a hit, but look, we'll get $1 every time someone streams it.  We'll get $1 every time someone puts them in their shitty home movie that they made on Unity or whatever that basically looks like a blockbuster now because you can do it all.  So, you've got the power, tools are so powerful now.  So, now that identity has become totally blown out of the water, it's like, well, what makes you you, and how does someone tell that you are you?  So, I think it comes down to work.

Peter McCormack: So, this stuff's important.  Have you seen the Huberman/Rogan deepfake? 

Danny Knowles: No. 

Peter McCormack: So, this is where someone used AI to scam. 

Michael Dunworth: I posted this.  There was an Elon Musk ad that said, "Hey, here's my next token, here's what I'm buying", and it's Elon Musk talking.  I reached out and I was like, "This is a brilliant effort", but it's just like, that's where it's going.  I'm watching Elon Musk tell me, "This is the best token to buy", or whatever.  I'm like, "That's not Elon Musk, and why am I seeing this?"  And,  "Oh my God, this is just the beginning of the end".  So, now what other people do is they'll put themselves with a red curtain background that looks like Joe Rogan, the background of Joe Rogan's studio, or whatever, that you see the guests have.  And they'll put it there and they'll start talking and it's got the subtitles.  And you know, so much content is ripped and chopped and slapped and dapped from TikTok to Instagram Reels to YouTube Shorts, it's all sliced and diced. 

So, you see all these similar style of videos and when you see a red curtain in the back, you're just immediately see this person as a subject matter authority and they're talking to some topic, whatever it be, personal training or nutrition or whatever you're seeing in front of you from your YouTube Shorts or your TikTok, and you just immediately see them, "Okay, I don't have time to process is this person real or not, I just assume who would go to the effort to put a red curtain at the back?  Oh, wait, we're getting that desperate now".  Everyone is trying to make it look like they're on Joe Rogan to make them seem like a subject matter authority.  And then that becomes this whole fuck around of now, you know when you see the word "sale".  The word sale is so bastardised that it doesn't mean anything.  The word sale, you see, "That's on sale", you're like, "And?  Everything's on sale".  It doesn't have the oomph that it used to. 

I think that's kind of now what happens when you see these clips of people with red curtain backgrounds and all these subject matter experts or subject authority speaking, it's just hard to tell real from fake.  And once you have the real from fakes, you just get apathetic where you're like, "Okay, well it's too confusing, don't need to think about it".

Danny Knowles: There's a Drake song, an AI Drake song that's been submitted for a Grammy. 

Peter McCormack: What?  A Grammy?

Danny Knowles: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Have you found the Huberman -- 

Danny Knowles: I think it's been removed, it says, "Copyright --" 

Peter McCormack: From everywhere?

Danny Knowles: Of the one I found, yeah.

Peter McCormack: I mean, so basically it's them having a conversation about some product that they're discussing and recommending to each other.

Michael Dunworth: And there's Joe Rogan talking to Steve Jobs as well and things like that.

Danny Knowles: Yeah, I've seen that one. 

Peter McCormack: But this one was used to convince people that Huberman, who's this kind of --

Michael Dunworth: Huberman was interviewing him and they're both agreeing that this is the best product you've ever seen. 

Peter McCormack: And people will fall for it and buy that shit. 

Michael Dunworth: Of course.

Peter McCormack: So, Huberman was talking to Marc Andreessen about it on his show and talking about this being an issue, and Marc Andreessen is talking about it being an issue because there's a number of things.  One, people can use you to scam. 

Michael Dunworth: Of course.  Your likeness becomes basically obsolete. 

Peter McCormack: Well, but also deepfakes can actually destroy careers. 

Michael Dunworth: Well, I mean of course, that's a whole thing.  But then the essence of any digital content now is totally bunk because it's totally --

Peter McCormack: Is this it?

Michael Dunworth: There's the red curtain!

[Video plays]

Michael Dunworth: The script is brilliant.

Danny Knowles: I mean that to me, you can tell that's fake, but these things will get indistinguishable.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but we know they're fake now because we're critiquing it, but when you're in the vortex of just -- your brain, you're not consciously drinking content, you're just being told what you're watching, and you're not going to try and, "Oh, is this a fake one?"  You're not going to be as kind of on your guard.  Now we're looking at it, I fully feel it.  I saw another one there it reminded me of; Zuckerberg.  And I thought it was real, I watched the whole thing and I was like, "Fuck, this is interesting".  Zuckerberg, I mean, he's sitting there, he's like, "Well, everyone knows that the easiest way to make money is via Facebook reviews, like everyone knows that".  And it was him talking to Joe Rogan.  I was like, "Go on, yeah?"  It's like, "And everyone knows we don't deal with suckers", and I'm like, "Oh, I'm not a sucker".  Total sucker!  Anyway, but yeah, so that's getting very real.

Peter McCormack: But Huberman was asking Marc Andreessen what you do about this, and I think he got it half right.  It was interesting, because Marc Andreessen said, "Look, you need to have registries to prove who people are, and therefore prove that content came from that person; you can sign it as your content".  And then he was saying, "Well, how will you do it?"  He said, "Well, you can have it run by the government, but that isn't ideal; and the second option is run by a private organisation, again that's not ideal; thirdly, it can be a blockchain".  I was like, "Oh…"  But he did say, "Public key cryptography would be the way to solve it", which is kind of the Nostr thing. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, well it's the only way, because at the end of the day, we are only a key.  The only thing that makes you able to claim you as you is a key, a digital key.  And so, if that's the case, then we need to kind of reorientate all the conversation to be around one thing, and that's keys. 

Peter McCormack: I think it's going to come quick. 

Michael Dunworth: It will, it's coming really quickly. 

Peter McCormack: Just quickly, go to my Twitter very quickly, and go and pick any tweet, and there's an AI that replies to every tweet I send. 

Michael Dunworth: With a positive message? 

Peter McCormack: It's kind of, yeah. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh really? 

Peter McCormack: And a descriptive message. 

Michael Dunworth: Oh, that's cool!

Peter McCormack: No, that's a retweet, isn't it? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: There he goes, ChatBRG AI.  So, scroll up. 

Michael Dunworth: "It sounds like you've somehow managed to turn organising into an action --" 

Peter McCormack: So, scroll up, Danny, let me read the original tweet.  So, my tweet says, "Australian friends, Danny and I are in Sydney getting ready for our live event this Saturday, sponsored by Iris Energy.  Below is the running in order.  There are tickets still available here."  And so the AI says, "It sounds like you've somehow managed to turn organise an event into an action thriller.  Maybe consider giving out decoder rings with ticket purchases for an extra layer of intrigue.  Have fun in Sydney!"  Every tweet I send, this fucking AI replies, right, and I'm like, "Okay, that's an interesting one".

But Twitter's got shit because a lot of the replies are terrible.  I'm starting to wonder how many are AIs.  And my thing is, I think very quickly, a large part of the internet is going to become almost unusable, because you don't know what's real and what isn't, therefore you don't care anymore. 

Michael Dunworth: No, and now you become apathetic to everything.  So, now what happens is, this is a whole big wormhole into a whole other conversation of, well, if we have all this digital stuff and we can't secure it properly, we're not going to stay obsessed with this digital stuff, you know what I mean?  So, right now, let's say you've got 150 accounts on the internet, you've got to have 150 passwords.  Now, people have not one password manager, multiple password managers, because, "Oh, that's the one from work, and this is the one from home, and that's the one from the old phone, but I can't remember the thing, so I'm just going to keep..."  Do you see the trend?  It just keeps growing, and you see the trend in our brains, we're getting lazier and lazier. 

So, I think the trend is going to be, "I don't need that, I don't need this, I'm over that, I'm tired of this, I don't really give a shit about that, I can live without that", and we're going to start going cut, cut, cut.

Peter McCormack: This is like you're getting rid of a car. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, well you just basically -- oh yeah, sorry, that's right, getting rid of the car.  It's like too much of a hassle. 

Peter McCormack: "What do I actually need in life?"

Michael Dunworth: Need versus want, right?  So, I think once you realise, yeah, I mean you try and figure out what you need and then you work backwards from there.

Peter McCormack: Well, I'm kind of hoping all this AI fucks it up to an extent.  I'm massively positive about AI, I love some of the shit you do.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, of course.  It's awesome.

Peter McCormack: But I've also got a feeling it's going to force us back into the meatspace and doing stuff in person, which I really, really am happy about.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  Well, I think our bodies need that, right?  We just don't interact as much, we don't have as much human connection, that's just a thing.  Everyone can work from home.  And all these interpersonal skills that you develop, little things, little, tiny struggles, like let's say you go to your work and some person's always annoying you that sits near you.  You have to deal with that in a day-to-day basis, but that's good for your brain to deal with, "How do I figure this out, or how do I put up with it or how do I become more patient?" or whatever.  And so when you don't have that, it's sort of like we get a bit dumber.  It's like I used to be able to remember everyone's phone numbers.  Now, I don't have to remember people's phone numbers because my phone does that for me.  So, I just have to remember the pointer that I saved it as, or whatever. 

Peter McCormack: Did you have a StarTAC? 

Michael Dunworth: Pardon?  No.  What's a StarTAC?  Is that like a beeper?

Peter McCormack: No.  The StarTAC was my first mobile phone.  It was a Motorola.

Michael Dunworth: Oh, cool, oh!

Peter McCormack: But when you used to send a text message, you couldn't select from your phone book.

Michael Dunworth: Oh, right.

Peter McCormack: So, you had to go in there and memorise the numbers.  So, I used to know everyone's numbers.

Michael Dunworth: Of course.

Peter McCormack: I still remember my first house phone number. 

Michael Dunworth: Of course, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Of all my friends who kept their number, I remember my friend, Joe's number. 

Michael Dunworth: Yes, of course.

Peter McCormack: So, I remember these numbers.

Michael Dunworth: They were there and they're imprinted in your brain, because your memory at the time was the repetition.  Just like we used to all remember our credit card number.  Now, it's more like, "Oh, we've Apple Payed it", or it's saved on file, or this and that, and you might remember it, but personally I don't as much any more.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, do you remember a time with no mobile phones?

Danny Knowles: I think I got my first mobile phone when I was 11.  I think my mom had one for a few years before that.

Michael Dunworth: What was the first one, like a Nokia 5110, or something?

Danny Knowles: 3310.

Michael Dunworth: 3310s, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but that's a few generations in.

Michael Dunworth: Well, that's like three years after the 5110 launch, give or take.

Peter McCormack: Because I know the time of no mobile phones, I know the time of no internet.  You don't know that do you?

Michael Dunworth: I don't remember that.

Danny Knowles: I mean, I think the internet existed my entire life, but I don't remember.  We had dial-up shitty internet when I was very young. 

Michael Dunworth: I remember we got the internet in 1991, I think, and I was like 5 or 6.

Danny Knowles: So, I was born in 1991.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, okay. 

Peter McCormack: Hold old are you, because I was about 14. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I think I was -- you were 14?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I'm 44 now.  So, what are you, 34, 35?

Michael Dunworth: 37, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, that's about right.

Michael Dunworth: And I remember it was dial-up and we had a 28.8 internet modem and it made that funny sound, kind of whole symphony it used to make.  But it was so different then, because you'd go there to find something, right?  You're like, "Oh, fuck, I can look that up now", and so you go there, look it up, or, "I can go do that".  But now it's like the internet's just swallowed humanity, it just feels like, yeah, it feels like we're getting swallowed up.  I think there's going to be a big sort of revelation where we have a big aha moment as people and we realise, "Oh my God".  People are starting to see this lack of human connection or this lack of community, and all these things.  Like, yes, online is really cool and stuff, but you've got to have these local communities and stuff like that.  If you don't have that, I think people start going a bit crazy, I feel.

Peter McCormack: People are going crazy. 

Michael Dunworth: Well, of course they are. 

Peter McCormack: It's like crazy shit every day.  The stuff that you just see on Twitter, there's a lot of video streams now on Twitter.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: And it's just people being fucking crazy.  They're either fighting, or doing crazy shit. 

Michael Dunworth: Everything's really tense, everyone's really tense and things aren't helping right.  So, money is not going to help.  If money is getting harder, the whole world gets harder.  That's why this is like a barometer of difficulty in life.  For any person living today, the barometer of difficulty is how fucked was your money?  I'm not one of the, "Oh, the money's fucked, let's make money good again".  I think money is a terrible investment; in humanity, it's really shit.  It's a good proxy for energy, but it's only there because we don't have infinite energy.  It's literally only there because we have a scarcity, we're like, "Well, how do we divvy this up?  Let's get this thing called money".  If we had infinite resources, think about how quickly everything would not be a problem any more. 

Imagine you've got like some warlord in Africa or something, he's like, "Yeah, I like killing people unwillingly", or wherever it is, the big villain.  You go, "Big villain, what's your price?"  He goes, "Oh, you can't buy that".  "Big villain, what's your price?"  "What do you want?"  "Oh, this is it, okay, done, next?"  "What?"  "Yeah, go, retire.  There's the beach, there's a cabana, there's the drinks, there's whatever.  Bye, stop being villain".  "Okay, cool".  Everyone has enough.  The problem is most people don't set a target.  If you don't set a target for whatever defining enough is, then you never leave the game, you just stay in the game. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but dude, you sometimes set that target and you hit it and you're like, "Oh yeah, but now I want to get there".

Michael Dunworth: Well, that's it.  This is the thing, right?

Peter McCormack: "Now I want the yacht". 

Michael Dunworth: Well, exactly, do you want the yacht, do you need the yacht?  And then you start thinking about it, it's like, I don't know, I find I personally feel like everyone's kind of, you know, if the tensions are so high in society, I just think it's kind of the same pressure in a wartime, where huge technological innovations come because just like diamonds, the universe is under huge amounts of pressure.  That's the same as World War II.  They had to have tremendous amounts of innovation.  I feel like we're going to go through that same thing, but not with physical weaponry, but more with like a mental state of consciousness, because we're putting so much pressure on human beings, like our diets aren't good enough… 

A human being, right, we're born on this planet.  Let's forget everything else and just say we're born here, like everyone else, the plant in the corner, the ants on the ground.  We're not meant to sit in a concrete building and miss all the sunlight, I don't think.  And I'm not a rocket scientist, I don't have a university degree, but something tells me you could put as many university degree professors, whatever, in front of me, and they're not going to be able to prove against that. 

Peter McCormack: And we're probably not meant to eat chemicals. 

Michael Dunworth: Something tells me we're not really meant to eat -- so it's sort of like, all these somethings are kind of giving me a hint, and that sort of something is logic.  So, all these people are trying to slam non-logic in your face.  You're like, "Shush, stop being so noisy, can't we just think clearly for a second?"  And I feel like that's what everyone's just like, "Shut the fuck up".  No one's got any integrity for the news, right, let's say.  Personally, I don't watch it or anything, but I mean I feel the sentiment, the heartbeat of humanity's changed over the past, let's say, 12 months or 18 months or something.  I don't know whether it was the Twitter files or all that sort of stuff, but I feel there's a sentiment shift where people are now like really, they're just not buying it.

Peter McCormack: I think it's longer than 12 months. 

Michael Dunworth: Probably longer than 12 months. 

Peter McCormack: I think COVID fucked us all up.

Michael Dunworth: COVID.  COVID was the hard thing, like the hard reset where people were like, huh, yeah, go to a park on a Wednesday to walk the dog at lunch.  You mean I don't need to sit in this office all day?  What the fuck was I thinking?  That's why heaps of people have gone like, "No, I'm going to move up the coast and live beautifully with my kids.  Yes, I'm not living where I grew up, but I'm making a sacrifice because I'm living now and life's not challenging, because I'm not buying an overpriced place in Sydney".  So, in Sydney, the housing market is absolutely cooked.  It's a huge ratio between income capacity to what it costs to buy a home in Sydney, and it's like 15 times your average income or maybe more or less or something.  But it's just basically unattainable.  So, everyone now, the dynamic is now different.  People are talking about, "How do I live with good friends through my 30s and 40s?".  That's a thing, a conversation that people are having because it's just not as easy to live now. 

I'm not saying that no one's fucked it all.  I mean, sure, the money and all that stuff.  It's just, this is the game, these are the cards we're dealt.  We can point and blame, "I get it, you know what, you need to fix that".  It's like, look, some people grew up in a time where they were sent to war, and there's obviously different wars for every era.  And there's obviously a war on money now, it feels like, or whatever is going on, but everyone's confused.  There's a war on sanity, it feels like as well, but we're just hyper-stimulated.  What could possibly happen if we are sitting, feeding our brains, sitting still, so we're taking all these vibrations in, all this new content, no sunlight, new content, bad food?  Food's even a question mark, it's probably more like products, not food, right?  And so it's just like, I don't know, getting it from all angles.

I was like, "Oh man, dude", and I was reading about fluoride, and I was like, "Oh what, fluoride, this is screwed up".  And then I was like, "Man, what an idiot, drinking fluoride", and I had a glass of water, and I was like, "Oh man, I'm such a sucker".  And then in my head I was like, yeah, I'm standing in the shower thinking like, "No, I'm drinking bottled water from now on the whole time".  I'm like brushing my teeth, I was like, "Hey motherfucker, you got me again!"  And now, with fluoride, I'm like, "These cunts", they really got you, even into the shower.  They're like, "Hello, I'm still here", and I'm like, "Yeah".

Peter McCormack: So, you've had all this time to think.

Michael Dunworth: I've had all this time to think.  Try and think, sorry.

Peter McCormack: But not to be hyperbolic and an annoying Bitcoin fucking idiot, but is there like a Bitcoin lens to all this? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, it's all Bitcoin, all Bitcoin lens basically.  And I'll tell you what it is.  It is, what happens when the block rewards run out?  That's the big question, or that's a big question.

Peter McCormack: Big question on Twitter this week.

Michael Dunworth: They're all wasting their time.  Where are the coins going to go?  The coins can't go anywhere.  So, people are like, "We're going to have to issue new coins".  Why?  We have coins already.  It's like, "Oh, but they're my coins".  Sure.  You're one of, let's call it, 500 million people that will be using this network.  You're not going to give yours up, no worries.  But it's really cheap to pay off the future.  Like right now, if we wanted to build -- like basically, we can throw our coins forward into the future. 

Peter McCormack: You have! 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I have, it's there actually.  We can throw our coins forward into the future.  It's like a miner.  Think of Bitcoin miners, like Magellan or Columbus sailing through the ocean, it's really dark.  They would be much more successful if there was a lighthouse or buoys along the way, like checkpoints, right?  They'd know where they're going.  So, the miners in the future, there's going to be no block reward.  So, if we can say, "Guys, there's money here though.  So, keep fucking around on the network, yes there's no block reward, but we've made a block reward, which is we've locked all these treasure chests of Bitcoins along the way, just in the same structure as the block reward.  It's basically 1 100th.  So, instead of 50 Bitcoins, which would be 5 billion Bitcoin for the first cycle, it's 50 million satoshis, so it's half a Bitcoin.  So, it's 1 100th of the initial schedule. 

But yeah, the idea is that miners now have an incentive.  So, even if you're a miner, this is 50 million times the block reward from the previous block halving, which is 1 satoshi.  So, that means the people four years before that, when they were getting 2 satoshis, they're going to be excited about this.  The people before that, who were getting 4, everyone's going to be looking to the...  I would hope if I'm a miner, they want this.  A miner is going to have a dictionary of these kind of treasure chest maps, these coordinates of like, "Okay, this public key, that private key has got money locked in this block.  We're about a hundred blocks away from that, so we need to keep an eye on this.  We're going to want to scoop that on block 7 million", or whatever, and they'll have these checkpoints.  And that's going to be like breadcrumbs or treats for a dog.  When you're trying to train a dog to walk up the stairs, you put the treats on the steps.  Same thing, you want to incentivise the behaviour.  Now, they might not,  people might go, "Fuck this, I'm not doing that".  So, "Whatever, dude, fine.  We're just trying new shit.  We don't know what's going to happen".

The thing is with Bitcoin, the reason why it's different is because we can't break it.  And I know that sounds like, "Oh yeah, maxi-shmaxi".  I only like this thing because it can't break.  That's its big sexy thing to me, is it's immutable.  That means this is like a piece of cable going through the universe.  So, remember when you're little and get a Milo tin or a can and you put a button and a string.  So, the string, when you stand across the field, the string's tight and I go, hello.  And it goes into the thing, goes across and then comes out the other side.  Hello?  What if the string was like 126 million kilometres long or a billion kilometres long and it goes all the way into the future?  And so when you say into the future, the Earth's moving through the universe.  So, it has coordinates of where it's going to be in the future. 

So, it's kind of like if Tom Brady could stand on Earth and throw a pass to himself and catch it.  So, you throw a pass, the Earth's still moving and eventually the ball will land where the Earth is going to arrive, like a football player catching his own pass almost.  So, that's what we're doing.  We're locking this transaction today and it's going to like lock, lock, lock and then it gets unlocked in time.  You'll see the shitty gifs in this shitty thread. 

Peter McCormack: It's not a shitty thread. 

Michael Dunworth: Because, I do shitty work!  And I'm working at shitty work.

Peter McCormack: Dude, okay, talk me through this. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, okay so what we want to do is we want to prove a wormhole, right?  Let's imagine a physical wormhole.  Let's say I've got a wormhole machine, I go, "Hey, there's a wormhole here".  What happens?  You imagine, "Okay, there's probably a big ring and there's maybe some electrical sparks or some shit out of Doctor Strange, whatever it is".  But you have to see it, and for you to say this is a wormhole, you've got to see, one, something that can go through there.  So, I throw this bottle through there and you see it land on the other side, which is in New York or something, or another planet.  So, we need a bottle and we need an entry and an exit point.  So, as we look at that, basically, that's what this is.  The entry and exit points are the time-locks on the Bitcoin blockchain. 

So, the object, we want to send a key through.  Why do we send a key?  Numbers; numbers are really small.  Sending a car is really big.  I don't have technology to do that, no one does, but the difference between a car and a number isn't much.  Because sending a private key, when you generate a private key, it's cryptographically proven that that mathematical equation, there's nothing else to it, just this maths equation, but when you generate it on your computer, an electrical spark happens to make that operation.  So, that key is physically tied to that electrical spark on your electrical grid.  Now we can't see it, but actually that whole operation happened and that's a thing.

So the idea is, well, we can take this key and if everyone has it, then we can't put it through a wormhole, but we can just ensure its survival long enough until the other side of basically this transaction, which is 120 years away now.  So, yeah, it's not sending a spaceship.  The first message on the internet, the first message they ever sent, do you know what it was?  LO, I think.  Yeah.  It was meant to be log in, but it broke after sending two letters.  Yeah, true story.  But that shows how far we've come, right?

Peter McCormack: Also, you've created an experiment that you won't get to see proven.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I know.

Peter McCormack: Unless, you know...

Michael Dunworth: Well, to be proven, it means we have to get to block 7.14 -- basically, we've got to get to the year 2140, before the year 2140.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so we need some medical advancements that mean you can live forever.

Michael Dunworth: Or, we need the blocks to be produced much faster, so we need some breakthrough in mining algorithms, but we'll wait and see what happens.  But yeah, it's unlikely that I'm going to see what's going to happen.  So, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Do you know about wormholes, Danny? 

Danny Knowles: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: But it's mathematically proven?

Michael Dunworth: Oh, yeah, 100%. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  It's like Einstein, mathematically proven. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Is the issue whether they can be stable enough for things to pass through them?

Michael Dunworth: I think it's more about our perception, right?  Like, we need to perceive a wormhole.  So, is a wormhole only physical or what if I play a song to you, right, and you blink and you take in the song and you're like, "Oh my God, dude, that felt like school, like prep school.  Oh my God, that felt so real", like when you hear a song and it takes you back.  Well, taking you back, what is a moment in time?  The only thing it can be is energy signatures, what did you hear; what did you smell; what did you taste; what did you feel; and where were you, or whatever, and that produces a thought.  You think it produces a thought, but actually all it is, is that moment in time, wherever we are in the universe, that's basically all the energy signals compressed into your heart, because you're just an electrical current.  That's all we are, you, me, we're all the same thing, an electrical current.  That light bulb, electrical current; the TV, electrical current.  We just sort of manifest in different ways. 

But yeah, so the idea is basically if Bitcoin can't break, then any message that we put on the Bitcoin blockchain should be read by someone in the future.  Now it's like, "Well, there's going to be a billion messages, why on earth would they read this?"  It's like, "Well, let's try and give them a reason to read it".  And then, that's why you put a big fuck off, or pardon my language, a very big incentive basically for them to be like, "Oh my God, we need to make sure that we take this key and mine these Bitcoins, and everything keeps going smoothly", yeah.  Does that make sense? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Michael Dunworth: Does it really? 

Peter McCormack: No, it does.

Michael Dunworth: Are you sure?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, no really.

Michael Dunworth: Okay, thanks, I'm glad you're with me.  Okay, so this is the shitty gif, but basically the Earth's going to keep spinning, it's going to keep going.  So, Planet of the Apes, they feel like they've landed on a new planet.  Actually, it's just Earth really far ahead in time, or whatever it was.  And so, we can see that basically we could travel all the way, we can make a little wormhole.  So, I actually did have slides, but anyway, you can keep going.  This is a shitty gif anyway, but the idea is basically we do the Bitcoin blockchain because it's the only ledger that we've got certainty at the moment that will be around in the future.  Now, the only way it's not going to be around is if we turn it off, for whatever reason we want to turn it off.  And so, yeah, the idea is to have these timestamps for Earth.  And how will we know where Earth is?  We've got a block height of when I did it, which was from that voice recording of when I sent it to you before, and then the other block is going to be around Earth 2156. 

What we're using is Bitcoin's block height because it's really hard to bullshit, we can't bullshit that, and everyone's got the same block height at the same time.  So, we're using that kind of like our z-axis.  So, if you've got a latitude and longitude on Earth, that's where were you on the planet; but it's like, where was the planet through the universe?  And so we use the block height to kind of be our yardstick for that.  Yeah, and then if we keep going down, okay, so signal attenuation.  So, remember holding our cup, remember standing on the other side of the field.  Now what would happen if that field was four kilometres long?  You probably wouldn't get the message, it doesn't have enough oomph, right?  So, that's why we've got Wi-Fi routers in our house to give the signal a kick up the ass, because signal attenuation is, I think, where the signal drops off basically, like how long does it take to drop off?  So, if you carve something into an unbreakable ledger, it doesn't drop off ever.  So, that's like being able to send a message to a telephone line that doesn't have a telephone pole on the other side and just saying, "Whoever plugs in this side of the telephone line is going to get one message.  And it's only the message, it's the only thing coming out of here". 

So, I think that's kind of an interesting way to think about the Bitcoin blockchain when you think about it like, "Oh shit, this is basically a diary that everyone can write in and no one can change".  So, does that make sense, by the way? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, no, it's fine. 

Michael Dunworth: Cool.  So, we put 0.5 Bitcoin in there and, yeah, we've done total of like, I think there's a total of 17 transactions into the future.  So, they're all locked there.  The idea is to put 34 there, so one for each halving to show the cadence of the halvings.  But yeah, it's just another way to kind of mitigate any potential FUD, not FUD, but the idea that, "Oh, we've got to increase the block size".  Well, not really, because we can achieve a lot today, because the cost of 50 million -- people flick, "Oh, 100 sats here".  There's walking apps where they'll pay you 400 sats if you walk a mile, or something like that.  People are farting around sats like they're going out of fashion right now, and that's fine and I get it, that's cool.  But just think about every single sat is ten minutes in the future.  And at that time, think of the weight of the network, if it hasn't broken by then, or whatever, it's going to be astronomical, like it's a black hole of Earth energy, well potentially anyway. 

So, I just thought it was an interesting idea and I thought maybe it sparked some creativity on how to think about time a bit differently or to actually think about keys as electrical currents and sort of get that conversation going a bit, because I think right now we're going to start looking at keys like they're more real than we thought they were, because as we start losing who we are, so as you start losing your likeness, you start holding on to what is yours more and more, right?  So, if people start copying your this, your that, you're like, "Well, fuck, hang on, leave something for me", and your key's going to be the last thing that's left.  And so the idea is, what is your key, or what keys are you?  And so, yeah, make it a really big incentive, make sure they really want to look at it. 

This meme down below, it looks pretty, sort of tells a story really, TL;DR.  We've got a big mining incentive, and so the idea is that you come back to earth in 120 years and hopefully people are basically trying to open this, or they're trying to hang on to the key.

Peter McCormack: And so your idea is that a what is a relatively small amount now --

Michael Dunworth: Can be drastically impactful --

Peter McCormack: In the future; so high that even if you have a bunch of blocks with little to no reward in between, it's worth getting into that. 

Michael Dunworth: They're still like, this is a whole new stratosphere.  People will start mining 50 years before to comprehend, because they know that this bounty is coming and it's an absolute certainty that it's coming, unless something happens.  But I'm not sure what happens.

Peter McCormack: But it does require people to constantly pay forward like you've done.  You're paying forward.

Michael Dunworth: Sure, yeah.

Peter McCormack: And if other people do that, great. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  And sure, we can't rely on that, but I definitely think that if Bitcoin has given one person something enough that they think, "Oh, you know what, I'm --" just going to, it's like Trevi Fountain, that's what my brother calls it, Trevi Fountain, you know, flicking the coin into the future and just hoping what happens.  But the weird thing is, if that's true, let's think about let's say you and I are talking and it's 1905 and we're sitting there at a café talking.  Let's say you turn out to be really famous, right?  We know that people would want to know what we were talking about because they want to know everything that you've spoken about, but you didn't have your whole life digitised then.  So, in the future, people are probably going to watch this episode because the archives of the internet will exist most likely because the data is just going to persist forever. 

So, they'll be watching this being like, "Oh, okay, so that's sort of what the go was with it.  All right, well his maths is totally wrong and he sounds retarded, but thanks for the free coins" or whatever the response is, it doesn't matter.  But either way, it's just something to make you think, because now the question is, well, if you can do that, then every person now -- and not only that, that means that coin's out of circulation.  So, we've got 0.5 Bitcoin that is 100% not there anymore.  So, you can do a number of how that's sort of risen the value of everyone else's coins, but it can become a double-edged sword really quickly where we have these certainty of time-locked coins that are out of circulation, and now the masses have the ability to delete money, not print money.  And so you kind of think of this, it becomes a weird dynamic, but I don't know, I think people are going to get so much value from this in more than one way, just not financial value, but they'll see a lot of themselves, or grow in their own way, and they'll want to do something for the future I reckon to say, "Hey, thanks, this was a mad journey I went on".  I think a lot of people will be like that. 

Peter McCormack: So, what's the goal here; is it that you'll want to inspire people, a lot of people, to start throwing sats --

Michael Dunworth: I mean, that's one way to make sure that they've got a reward in the future, for sure.  I think the other way is just sort of connecting the relationship between numbers and physical energy displacement.  And so I think that, yeah, that was just sort of how much weight -- so, I'll give you an example.  Let's say tomorrow morning, Satoshi's coins move.  I can guarantee you, and I'm not a time traveller, but I can guarantee you what happens.  I can promise you with absolute certainty that the block.co, that website, will host something that speaks to that.  I can guarantee that you will do a podcast that will have some commentary about that.  And why is that?  And that's because the weight of that key is so tremendous to us, the weight of it.  Now, we say it's called weight, but it's got an aura to it.  So, when that does something, it's like an earthquake, a geologist shaking the earth.  You see shit's going to happen on the surface.  So, if we think of media publications, Twitter, it would be trending on Twitter if Satoshi moved his coins to Coinbase, right?  So, all this energy gets displaced on the surface layer, but it's very chaotic. 

So, if you could get an action to happen on-chain that should produce a non-chaotic off-chain response, or one of cohesion, then you can kind of use the chain almost like a lens through time to say, "Well, in this future, you guys are going to have some problems we don't know, but we know the energy problem, if this is a ledger of energy for everyone, then we know that you're going to have one energy problem", and let's try and help them out with that.  Because it's not like we're going to fix everything here tomorrow, but we might be able to fix some shit in the future.  Anyway, yeah.  Oh, do you want to know the story of when I did this?  There's a couple of funny facts to it.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, go on.

Michael Dunworth: So, the first one I did, I think the first transaction was on the 21 October 2021.  And then I was like -- 

Peter McCormack: Was that the one you messaged me about? 

Michael Dunworth: When I messaged you, yeah.  It's just basically saying, "Hey, I did it".  And so, it was actually serendipitous that you didn't take it because it was meant to be stolen by someone random, because that was more pure, it was more intellectually honest in that regard.  It's not like, "Oh, you just gave it to your mate".  Actually, no, some dude out there knows he stole them with absolute certainty, and I don't know who that is.  But the idea is that, so that was on the 21st and then it was my birthday.  The idea was, I've got to do 34 transactions, one for every block halving.  So, 0.5 Bitcoin, then 0.25 Bitcoin, then 0.125, and so on and so on.  So, I don't know if I've sent it to you, but I've got all these transactions already logged out.  

But when I did it, I did the next two, so one, two, three, I wanted to make it so it was a pattern or a trend so someone could see it.  So, the first one was done on 21 October, the second and third ones were done on my birthday, which the block fell on my birthday, so my birthday was 7-2-2022 and that block was on my birthday.  And so I was like, "Oh that's perfect, that's a sign, I'll do it then".  So, I did the other ones then.  And then the last one was on Einstein's birthday, but to do that I was like, "Okay this is all about energy signatures".  I know it sounds ridiculous but I was like, "Okay, if I'm an electrical current, my phone's an electrical current, the blockchain's an electrical current, how do I tie all these things together?  So, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to get on my bike, ride around Centennial Park", which is over there, we'll see it tonight. 

Anyway, I ride my bike around this big three-kilometre loop, and I do it over and over while I'm on my phone sending these transactions because I want, if the future can see all these energy signatures, they see this idiot riding around in a circle so he's telling me, "Hey, I know what a circle is", meaning like, "Hey, I'm trying to tell you guys I know what circles are".  And then also it's like, "Oh my God!", and you see like the bird's-eye view would look like these fireworks going off into the blockchain, because I'm going, like every 10 minutes or 20 minutes because you've got to wait for them to confirm. 

But then anyway, I accumulated all the days destroyed and it weighed up to like 2.3 million total days destroyed, and that turned out to be the same size as the pyramid blocks.  And I was like, "Oh, that's cool", because the pyramids have got like 2.3 million stones in them and they're just doing their thing. 

Peter McCormack: Which by the way, weirds me out, because you look at the photo of the pyramids and you're like, there's not 2.1 million blocks in that.  Yeah, it's weird.  Like if you just looked at it, somebody's like, "How many blocks in that?"  I don't know, 10,000?  And it's like, what do you mean there's 2.1 million blocks? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  440 cubits by 280 cubits, it's a monster. 

Peter McCormack: It is a monster.  Did you know about that? 

Danny Knowles: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's just weird, it weirds me out. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  But anyway, so that's kind of the premise, it's like, yeah, do something.  And I thought of this as, there's a lot of conversation around NFTs and stuff, right?  And I think NFTs are actually, in the current state, quite unoriginal.  But this was like, well, this key exists now and it's not a private key any more, so it's everyone else's key.  But this key is now the NFT.  Does that make sense?  So, the whole work is all embedded into this one key.  It's not a, "Oh, is it a frog or is it a monkey?"  It's like, "No, dude, this dude's been cycling for three hours in a circle like an absolute lemon.  It's taken him three years to do this and it's worth this much weight, this much energy".  Like it's real, and I felt like that would hopefully supercharge the conversation on people like, what do we think is cool or what is a valuable NFT?  Because, look, monkey pictures and shit, I have no problem with them, but I just don't know that that's like the value add right now. 

It's sort of feels a bit like littering in the ocean.  Like, yes, we littered in the ocean.  We know it's dumb now, and we used to know it was okay.  And I don't think it's bad, I like people trying everything, but let's get creative because Bitcoin quite sets a standard in things.  And I'm like, don't gronk out.  Let's make it mad, let's make it really, really cool.  I don't know.  Anyway, that's the end of my shit story.

Peter McCormack: So, why?

Michael Dunworth: You know what?  Because I wanted to build a clock.  I've been trying to build a clock, and the way that I thought that the lightest, strongest clock that you could build is one clock that is only for every Bitcoin block height, it's got a wallet, a time-locked wallet.  And the only thing is, it's based on one key and you derive a block height wallet for each thing.  And one person pours all the money, pours Bitcoins into all these, and all it was is just check the address and it's like, "Ding", the money's stolen, you know that you're at that block height.  And then that was the lightest weight way that I could think of, if I could only have one API call to the blockchain and to Bitcoin, and I didn't know if the software was tainted or not tainted or anything, then if I had this clock set up, I could always know that no matter what device I was using, that I could check my wallets and I couldn't be bullshitted.  And so I thought that was kind of interesting because now I get the whole weight of the Bitcoin Network security in my head that, "Oh, they've stolen that coin, okay, we're up to that clock".  Just like a moment in time has been stolen from you, where you know that moment has passed. 

So, I thought that was just an interesting way, because machines are going to look at -- right now we look at the sun because the sun's the heaviest energy source locally to us.  That's why our clock, like everything is set to whatever's basically the heaviest mass.  So, our clocks internally, circadian rhythms and all that stuff, machines will be the same as us.  When they'll look at the Bitcoin block height, like the sun in the sky, we look at the sun in the sky like, "Hey, it's up tomorrow.  Hey, it's up now.  Great, let's go.  Time to start my day".  My brain turns on, circadian rhythm, it all starts.  Now machines, they will look at the Bitcoin block height like, "Oh, cool, the sun's up again, we have a new block today, another block has come", because to them, objectively, it's undeniable that that's got the heaviest amount of work going into it because of all the brewing companies that are basically sucking all the energy from the grid and developing the network security.  So, when you think about that, I think that's kind of cool.

Peter McCormack: So, what are you going to do next? 

Michael Dunworth: I want to keep going with stuff like this.  I reckon Bitcoin's going to be the key.  Here's the thing, I think Bitcoin's going to be the key ingredient to humanity going the next level to something like a unified field theory, which is basically where we know how to control every particle in the universe.  And that's not that far away, I don't think.  I reckon five years, five to ten years I'd say. 

Peter McCormack: What? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I reckon so, we're too close.  I'll give you an example, right? 

Peter McCormack: Is this the quantum world? 

Michael Dunworth: Yes, but the quantum world is like a four-dimensional version of pixels, where every pixel on your screen is 2D, right, it's 2D.  But you know that every pixel can develop into every state.  So, if you wanted to put any picture or colour there, one pixel is not going to go, I can't make that colour.  It's designed to be able to make every shape and form that can be produced or processed.  Let's think of the universe is made up of quantum particles, quantum by quantum particle.  Like instead of 10 particles by 10, it's 200 billion squillion by 200 billion squillion by 200 billion squillion, or whatever, and every particle can take every shape.  Now if we look at the shape of the universe, it's probably more like a multiverse, because it's basically every possibility that can happen will happen. 

It's sort of like if you think of every timeline that you could think of and add those all up, then that's what a fourth dimension looks like.  It's basically every possibility that you could perceive in your brain.  And that's because the only things you can perceive is shit that you can draw from.  You can't draw inspiration from anything other than the sensory inputs that you've already taken.  And so now it becomes, "Well, how can ChatGPT write all this shit, or be so good and so clever?  Oh my God, human consciousness".  It's like, no, it's not that if ChatGPT is conscious, it's are you conscious?  Because your energy signals, if I took them all together and put them together, I could probably interpret whether this person will like Korn, Follow the Leader, or they won't like that song, or whatever.

Peter McCormack: Korn, Follow the Leader!

Michael Dunworth: Do you remember that? 

Peter McCormack: Do you know why that's so funny?  So, you know we talked about the internet earlier? 

Michael Dunworth: Yes. 

Peter McCormack: The first thing I searched for on the internet was Korn!  Yeah, so we got the internet at school and I went in and I was on Yahoo and then, I think it was Yahoo. 

Michael Dunworth: "Search Korn!" 

Peter McCormack: No, I was in school, I searched for Korn and it came up.  It actually predates Follow the Leader, because I think it was Life is Peachy might have come out.

Michael Dunworth: I think Follow the Leader was after Life is Peachy, or whatever it was.  The first one was really successful and then I think the Follow the Leader one was with all the animation, the girl with the bullet.  Remember that animated video that showed the trail of the bullet and it was really cool?  And at the time, everyone was like, "Whoa!"

Peter McCormack: So, in my old life when I had a fanzine and I started a fanzine as a kid, I interviewed Korn on their first tour of the UK. 

Michael Dunworth: Really? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I had a fanzine, I only did four issues and the first one was like, I got Skunk Anansie, they were playing in Bedford, so I interviewed her, she was front cover.  It was really shitty, printed in my local -- Tom's dad's estate agents.  And then I got Biohazard for issue two, their record company.  And then Korn were playing the UK, they'd just released Blind, they were playing the Astoria 2, and I phoned up the record company and I interviewed Jonathan Davis and that bassist who thinks he's a rapper, Fieldy.

Michael Dunworth: Okay.  Jonathan Davis is the main dude, right? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I went up to the Astoria 2 and I sat down and they were there in their Adidas track suits and I sat down there with a Dictaphone, pre-mobile phone. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, like Kevin McCallister in Home Alone 2. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and I interviewed Korn!  That's how life went full circle, because I did that and then I did all the advertising bullshit and came back and interviewed people.

Michael Dunworth: How good is that?

Peter McCormack: It's so funny, man! 

Michael Dunworth: That is rad. 

Peter McCormack: So, funny. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, Follow the Leader.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's a great song, man.

Michael Dunworth: Oh, I mean, I thought that was a whole era for me.  I remember that was like kind of --

Peter McCormack: Nu metal.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I was all about it.  I loved it and I really liked the animation stuff.

Peter McCormack: Do you know that song?

Danny Knowles: Yeah.  But I want to know, why is Bitcoin the key to this?

Michael Dunworth: Because it can't break.  It doesn't break.

Danny Knowles: Why is that enough?

Michael Dunworth: Because for something to persist into the future, I've got to make sure that beyond everything else -- so here's the reality, right?  Whether we know it or we don't know it, we like it or don't like it, the only thing that matters in anything is security.  Nothing matters unless you have security because you can't build on something and you never own something unless you secure it, right?  So, security is the most important thing.  Then we need to make sure that, well, how do we make sure that this thing that whatever message, whatever carrier pigeon we're trying to use, we need to make sure this carrier pigeon is made of steel, indestructible, he's going to fly through mountains, he's going to get shot at, he's going to get all this sort of stuff, so how do we make sure he's really strong?  And that's why I put it on there. 

But it's also on IPFS as well, and then there's like pointers on other networks.  But basically they're sort of fallbacks.  But the idea is that it should stay unless Bitcoin breaks.  And I can't see anything breaking Bitcoin, unless something around prime numbers happens, but even if that happens, Bitcoin's the last thing in the world to break because it's the heaviest and the hardest.  So, it becomes this kind of weird thing.  I don't know. 

Danny Knowles: But you're talking about almost unlocking the key to the universe, and so I don't understand how we go from here to there and what role Bitcoin could possibly have in that.

Michael Dunworth: Well, Bitcoin is showing us something that, one, numbers secure a lot more than just numbers, right?  They're not just numbers to us, because we put so much inference on them.  Like, this is my number.  Whatever the number is, the phone number, the passport number, the whatever number, we're a number, we're some number, some prime number.  When you secure something, anything, see, look at that lock up there.  See that lock on this webpage?  That's an SSL certificate.  You know when a page comes up and goes red?  That basically means the prime numbers don't match.  So, if that had a big sign on it, what it would say is, "Prime number mismatch", basically. 

I mean look, I don't know if I'm spot on on that, but it basically means a cryptographic error, which is usually we use cryptography, we use prime numbers for cryptography.  Prime numbers are the reason why this, why Bitcoin, did you say why Bitcoin? 

Danny Knowles: Yeah. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, because it's immutable.  So, if I could carve it into a rock legally, really gigantically, I would.  That's why they make marble statues.  That's why they made the pyramids out of stone, because they're designed to be persistent.  And if you're making something as an artwork, persistence is a huge thing, because if this is a purpose-driven project -- and we're not as purpose-driven now as we used to be.  Back in the day, let's say 5,000 years ago, we would look up in the sky and galaxies and everything, because it's so small, so it's not perfect, but it's not like now.  We had a reason to look up, and we had a reason to be curious.  Imagine how much more we're looking up back then.  Now, think about how much more intelligent those people are in terms of their consciousness.  They understand themselves better than anything, especially better than now, because they have so much less noise trying to tell them who they are.  All they've got to do is survive and then be themselves. 

When you think about all these people from back then, that basically everything that's been good has been persistent, and the pyramids are a great example of that.  And they're like a big mathematical sort of flex, in my opinion.  What the pyramids are sort of saying is, "We kind of knew everything already", and that's how it looks to me. 

Danny Knowles: Do you mean because they face true north and all the --

Michael Dunworth: Well, so when you build something, if you're building something with purpose, like let's say I'm an architect and you're the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh's like, "I need to build the biggest pyramids in history" and you're like, "All right, cool, fair.  Hey, get me Mike, the architect".  "Hey, Pharaoh, what's up?  Is this the massive project you're talking about?  What are you thinking?  Big statute?  "No, dude, massive, massive pyramid, hear me out.  We're going to make it 440 by 280, massive.  "But why 440 by 280?"  "I don't know, I'm just pulling my finger out".  No, we're getting 20,000 years' worth of slave labour right now where every single number that is in this thing has a purpose, right? 

If you're doing anything that takes 20 years, you're not going to be like, "287 feet", or something.  It's going to be, no, this is it, this is why, because the Pharaoh is going to go, "Why'd you do that number?"  "Oh, boss, because of this", and he's like, "Yeah, I don't mind that.  All right, cool, I like that".  And so they've encoded all this stuff.  That's why you look at the size of them.  So, Nikola Tesla, who it's very well documented that he liked the pyramids, he was like, "Oh, damn, that's cool".  And everyone's like, "Why do you like the pyramids?  Are they a powerplant?"  "Yeah, sure, maybe", etc.  But the reality was, if you do 440 and 280, but if you divide those together, I think you get 3-1-3-6-3-6-3-6-3-6 and this harmonic resonance basically, and that's what Nikola Tesla was all about.  He's like, "Dude, these numbers are talking to us, guys", and everyone was like, "No, you're an idiot".  He's like, "Bro, you're making everything really, really difficult by inventing all these new words, 'strong nuclear force', 'weak nuclear force', etc".  No one's ever heard of those on anywhere else but Earth. 

So, if we're actually trying to play ball like a real civilisation, like at a universal scale, no one's got English.  They don't have byte code and passcode and whatever these tap knock things are that we send into the universe.  They've got numbers.  That's why the number line is like the time machine.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, so you're basically saying numbers are the one common language through everything.

Michael Dunworth: Everywhere.  If you're dealing with an alien species, let me tell you something.

Peter McCormack: The same language they will have, because they will discover maths in the same way, but language, the way they communicate, can be entirely different. 

Michael Dunworth: Totally arbitrary.

Peter McCormack: But maths will be the same everywhere. 

Michael Dunworth: Well, this is the thing.  So, we invented maths again.  So, what comes down to it?  It comes down to just numbers.  And so the maths becomes addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.  Everything else, all these exponential numbers, complex numbers, all this bullshit, I mean, it's all real and very real, but it's sort of very real relevant to us, and it teaches us stuff. 

Peter McCormack: But hold on, if there are alien civilisations out there, we send out signals into space, we look, you know, SETI is looking for their signals. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, of course, yeah.

Peter McCormack: For them to be able to send signals out, they will have to have discovered the same maths.

Michael Dunworth: Well, they would have to have been using the same technology.  So, it's like how could the Egyptians receive microwave technology or radio technology?  They didn't have that stuff, right?  We can and we think, "Oh that's mad, we're the kings of the universe".  No, everyone has numbers.  Numbers is the dick measuring contest for any civilisation.  And you know what the dick measuring contest is, pardon the language, but it's basically if aliens come here, they ask one question to our leader and they go, "What's the biggest prime number you know?"  That's the only question they ask, because every other technical innovation is on the back of prime number factorisation, because that's the first thing.  It's the most important thing in the world to us as a species.

Danny Knowles: Why is that?

Michael Dunworth: Because that's the hardest thing, basically it's the hardest security policy.  And the reason why we have prime numbers for security is because prime numbers are hard to find if you're trying to look for them, because they don't have divisors.  Divisors are basically, you know, the number 6 is divisible by 3 and 2; that's a divisor.  And so, how do you find the number 6?  Well if I find the number 3 and I find the number 2, then I've found the number 6, right; does that make sense?  You're finding these wormholes, literally like shortcuts through numbers.  And so, if you've got prime numbers they're hard to find, because they're divisible by only one and themselves.  So, multiplication and divisors, that's almost a hint.  When you know that you can't find the next number through all the divisors that you've got, you know that the next number has to be prime, because a prime number is something that's, there's no set of divisors beneath it. 

Let's say I've got the number 7, there's no combination from 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, the divisors of those numbers, that can find the number 7 basically. 

Peter McCormack: All right, let's test you.  What's the largest prime number known?

Michael Dunworth: I don't know, but 2 to the 84,000 minus something minus 1.  Mersenne, it's a Mersenne prime.

Peter McCormack: 2 to the 82,500 -- okay, so it was discovered December 2018.

Michael Dunworth: 29 million digits.

Peter McCormack: It has 24,862,048 digits.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  See, I think what we'll do is we'll look at prime numbers a bit differently.  So, we look at them like numbers and we're brute-forcing them now, like we're Bitcoin-mining brute-forcing, right?  Just we're smashing them together.  And so, when we first actually tried to split the atom -- because if you think about a prime number, it's something that's divisible by one and itself, which means there's no ingredients in it.  We used to think that we can't split the atom because there's no ingredients to an atom.  But we figured out that we went, not literally, but we split it and then we're like, "Hey!"

Peter McCormack: All the shit fell out.

Michael Dunworth: All this cool stuff fell out, it's like cracking open an Easter egg or something.  And so, the way that we split it was we just basically brute-forced it.  It actually is funny because it almost looks like this mining nonce pattern that we have.  But what happens is basically they get all these, I don't even know what they were shooting at, uranium or whatever they do, and they have basically a whole bunch of the candidates that they're trying to split and they just smother this with just millions of bullets of this stuff hoping to split them and so it's quite uncontrolled, like it's quite inelegant in that regard, but it achieves the outcome.  And so I think prime numbers is kind of that same thing, where we thought we couldn't split the atom, but I think we'll find a way to sort of split them per se, which means we can know exactly their ingredients and understand them perfectly.  But I think it's going to change a lot.

Peter McCormack: Prime numbers are infinite.

Michael Dunworth: I mean, they don't even know that.  They say there's infinitely many primes.  And then, so one of the biggest things I think, which will be the biggest clue, is the twin prime conjecture, which they kind of say there's infinitely many.  A twin prime is something that's, imagine a number in the middle, it's got two numbers hanging off it like a scale and they're both primes basically.  So, any number is plus or minus one, take one step that way, prime, one step that way, prime.  And the idea is, like is there infinitely many of those or is there a finite amount?  I'm absolutely certain, I feel like there must -- 

Peter McCormack: But there must be infinite, because if there's --

Michael Dunworth: They've got to be infinite, right?  If we infinitely count numbers, we can keep processing a higher amount of information.  Then if we can keep processing a higher amount of information, then surely it doesn't just stop at 20 zillion.  There's got to be a whole bunch of primes waiting on the other side when we get more computational power. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, exactly.

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, and I think then it becomes sort of an exercise of, "Yeah, this is going to keep going, guys, unless you figure out why they are there or what they are".  So, it's like you keep counting them, it's like, "Hey, we've counted a million".  It's like, "Wait, do you know what they are yet?" 

Peter McCormack: So, could AI and computer power get so strong, so powerful that it could find any number of primes. 

Michael Dunworth: I reckon humans will do it first. 

Peter McCormack: Humans will do it first? 

Michael Dunworth: And a human being, not a machine controlled by a human being. 

Peter McCormack: Will do what? 

Michael Dunworth: I think they'll be able to factor primes faster than computers in the future.  I think we'll have, like all this information we're taking in, we don't know what we're taking in.  You ever hear of people like autistic savants, they have an accident, they get hit in the head with a baseball and they can all of a sudden convert any language they've heard, like any music language, into a piano language.  Piano's got keys, music has notes, they translate it.  Drawing, mathematics, all these guys.  A lot of them, like British guy, Daniel Tammet, he was probably the most famous one, because he could communicate the best out of all the autistic savants.  He recited Pi to like 20,000 digits, or something, in a day.  It took him four hours, but it's all from memory, it's unbelievable.  So, I reckon humans are capable of these, let's call them superpowers, where they're ultra, ultra purpose-driven focus. 

Now the savant, the autistic savants, give us a hint that it's possible to have this astronomically unperceivable ability to do something that we all can't do.  But they can't tie their shoes for example.  So, this guy, Daniel Tammet, was saying, "Everyone thinks I'm really smart, but I look at Michael Schumacher and I think, 'Oh my God, how does he know how to drive a car?'" because he can't drive a car.  But you're like, "Oh, I can drive a car, what idiot can't drive a car?"  Well we don't know, everyone's brains are wired so differently.  It's fascinating now, if you want to check this out, you're going to lose faith in humanity, but check out High School Kids' Analogue Clocks.  They don't know how to read an analogue clock.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I guess.

Michael Dunworth: Because they haven't been taught how to read an analogue clock.  So, it then becomes a, "What do you mean, it's just intuition.  Obviously the shorter --"  No.  The intuition's not there.  We think everything's intuitive.  It's like, no, it's because it's been smacked in your face 100 times, you know what I mean?  And we don't kind of realise, we take that for granted.  But anyway, all this kind of boils down to, I wanted to touch on one thing about the Tesla things, right?  So, we're talking about Tesla before.  This is worth talking about I reckon.  Tesla and Einstein. 

So, Einstein was asked, "What does it feel like to be the smartest man in history?"  And he goes, "I don't know, you'd have to ask Nikola Tesla".  So, obviously that's like, you know how smart Einstein is. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah. 

Michael Dunworth: But he's very humble and stuff like that, as is Tesla, or at least that's how it reads, right?  I don't know them personally, but from everything I've read, it seems like they are.  Very humble, but for someone so brilliant to say that, he must perceive in his mind that he's so far behind what this guy is thinking that it is truly just like he's like, "That's a different level".

Peter McCormack: He had imposter complex!

Michael Dunworth: But the reason why is because, so Tesla was said to say about Einstein, he basically says, I can't remember the exact, I could find it if you wanted. 

Danny Knowles: I'll pull it up here. 

Michael Dunworth: But I think it's worth actually looking at, because this is quite, I don't know if this is he said, she said, obviously, but I think it's actually accurate.  Yeah, okay, so let's go, "Einstein's relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors.  The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king.  Its exponents are brilliant men, but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists".  That's pretty scathing, right?  And look, this dude didn't seem like a scumbag, but now, so Einstein's whole equation was --

Peter McCormack: Hold on, hold on, so, what?  So, Tesla thought Einstein's relativity work was bullshit? 

Michael Dunworth: No, he goes, "Yeah, it's all true, but dude, you've done it the hardest way possible.  You've constructed all these different terms on everything", when Tesla basically only studied numbers and Einstein studied science.  But numbers are the tool that everyone has.  So, Satoshi with no premine, numbers are like that.  Everyone gets them out of the box.  When you come into Earth, everyone gets a set of numbers, we all get the same set of numbers.  And so it becomes a tool that you can --

Danny Knowles: What does that mean?  I don't know what that means.

Michael Dunworth: Well, you count to ten. 

Danny Knowles: Oh, I see, okay. 

Michael Dunworth: You get the same set of numbers as I do.  So, I can look at them just like you can, I can write them down.  Let's think of the number line like a textbook.  We all get that out of the box.  So, we can look at it, we can analyse it however we want, whenever we want.  And so, some people analyse it more than others, and we don't have a need to analyse it now.  But anyway, so the long story short is like, basically he rinsed him pretty hard in that regard.  And so, I'll actually tell you why.  Look, I'm not shilling my shit, but just let me shill my shit for one second, I promise you.  Go to github.com or just type githubmiked123.

Peter McCormack: Wow, look at that quote, "I'm even grateful to Einstein and others because through their erroneous theories, they led mankind away from that dangerous path I followed"!

Michael Dunworth: So basically, Tesla's studying numbers and he's gone all mad, numbers are everything.  So, that's basically what Tesla's landed on, numbers are everything.  And they're like, "No, Higgs boson, the nuclear force" and Tesla's like, "Bro, these are all just made up, you're not speaking the language of the universe.  Every person in the universe is speaking numbers, everyone is not speaking strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, atoms, atom smashes, Higgs boson.  No, never heard of it.  Why are you talking to me?  Don't bother.  You're not on the same playing field".  Does that make sense? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Michael Dunworth: So, Tesla said that.  So now, let's go to energy and this sounds stupid, but go down to --

Peter McCormack: Hold on, was that AI you?

Michael Dunworth: Yeah!  So, go to Unconventional Transitivity, and so basically I was trying to say, "Why are Tesla and Einstein arguing over this shit?  How wrong could they be or how right could they be?"  Tesla's the number guy and Einstein's made that.  So, look at those equations.  So, scroll up.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, is this a paper you've written? 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah.  So, transitivity means if I set my clock and then you set your clock from my clock, our clocks are in sync transitively, right?  So, that's what I mean.  So, what I'm saying is, Einstein's equation E=mc2, that's right, that makes sense; and the area of a circle, A=pr2; those are the same equations.  One says m, one says Pi.  Now, the first thing you think is that m and Pi aren't the same thing; Pi is 3.14, it's a fixed value, or whatever.

Now, the other thing is that that's not actually the case.  Pi and mass are related through what's called phase space.  So, there's a really beautiful video that I put in the time-travelling article that I wrote about phase space, because what happens is, when I say phase space, what I mean is, if you have two blocks, right, two big, heavy blocks like sliding hockey pucks, right?  One's heavy, one's lighter, 100 kilos, 1 kilo.  When they slide, the heavy one pushes this one into a wall, right?  And it pushes itself until it bounces back.  That cumulative amount of back and forth will add up to, the mass will produce a phase space, which is what is the length of the rebounds basically that push back and forth as it's getting pushed into a wall?  Does that make sense? 

Peter McCormack: Kind of, but keep going.

Michael Dunworth: Well, 3Blue1Brown, which is the best mathematical videos on earth, they did a video on this, which is stunning.  If you ever wanted to watch it, just listen, and it's got the best sound effects you've ever heard.  Anyway, what I'm saying is, this is why Tesla is like, "The area of a circle is pr­2 and everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, mathematical this, etc".  He's like, "Yeah, E=mc2.  He's right, but it's a circle, guys".  And everyone's like, "No".  He's like, "Okay, guys, it's the same equation".  And everyone's like, "No, you don't know what you're talking about".

Peter McCormack: Hold on, are you the first to say it's the same, or was somebody else previously? 

Michael Dunworth: I'm showing you it's the same.

Peter McCormack: No, but like --

Michael Dunworth: Sorry, I've never heard people talk about this, personally.  I've been trying to find people to talk about this because I'm really interested in this. 

Peter McCormack: Okay, so look, I understand the equation for a circle, right?  How is E=mc2 a circle? 

Michael Dunworth: Okay, so let's say c2, what is c2?  Pass your pen, let's do this, this is going to be great, okay.  Okay, so now I'll do it towards you, right, so we'll draw a circle.  Now let's just imagine that's our circle, so there's the centre of our circle, what's that going to be?  That's the radius, right?  And so what would we call this?  If we're using this equation, what would we call the E one?  So, this is our circle for E, you're telling me how is E=mc2 a circle, right?  So let's say, well what is this distance?  We're going to say that's the radius.  So, that's the radius and we call that c2, is that right?  Yeah? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah. 

Michael Dunworth: So, that's a blast radius.  So, imagine now, so now we're trying to think about c2 and light in the form of a circle.  So, let's say you have the universe before there's anything in the universe and we put one atom, one particle in it, and it's got an electrical current in it.  The moment we put that particle in -- it was dead black, nothing in the universe, we control the universe, hypothetical, nothing, dead black.  Now, I put one particle in the centre, it emits a light, right, but it has to because it's got a current on it.  Well, it's got a current through it, and now we've got some sort of, is there going to be any light?  But this occupies space, because we had total space, now total space minus one little thing where the particle is now occupying.  We injected it into the middle of this fake universe that we have.  So, that particle is going to have a mass of m. 

So, it's m, and what is the blast radius of the light that that particle is affecting?  Well, in one second, its blast radius is however far light can travel in one second.  Like if you had a grenade and you said, "What's the blast radius of the grenade?"  However far this grenade, like let's think of that m as our grenade, this is the blast radius of the grenade, right?  If m is a particle, then the light distance that it can travel in a second is like the blast radius of the light affecting anything.  And if light's the one affecting it, then that becomes the equation.  That's where this equation is a circle, because you have m times c2, and Pi and m are related.  So, if we say, depending what m is relative to something else, then we can use this phase space stuff we were just talking about before to show the relationship between m and Pi. 

So, now we have, what's r2?  I've just shown you, r2 is exactly like light.  It's the same thing, it's the blast radius, right?  Does it make sense?  I think the light analogy kind of gets there.

Peter McCormack: I mean, I'm hearing it all.  I'm so out of my depth.

Michael Dunworth: But that's what I mean, there is no depth, that's the thing.  It's ultra-simple.  I'm trying to make it like that.  So, remember Tesla, the purple guard, this is something dressed up as something, that's it.  How much do you affect around you?  That's the equation.  So, what's your E?  Your E is whatever your mass is times light.  Because, if I injected the Peter, you, into this black tank, whatever your mass is times the blast radius is going to be how much light you can affect.  That's why you see, like what's the Leonardo da Vinci dude, the Vitruvian Man, or whatever it's called, the circle dude.  It's like a blast radius basically, same thing, like how far can you reach with light? 

Peter McCormack: Hold on, isn't E=mc2, it's not a sphere? 

Michael Dunworth: It's not a sphere, that would be, I think, a circle, right? 

Peter McCormack: Well, 2D is a circle, 3D is a sphere. 

Michael Dunworth: Right, exactly. 

Peter McCormack: And, okay, and they're both a sphere in 3D. 

Michael Dunworth: Well, yes, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: I mean, like, I don't understand it.  I don't know what you're talking about. 

Michael Dunworth: Well, I think it's interesting.

Peter McCormack: But like, I don't even know this side of you!

Michael Dunworth: Oh, dude, I don't either.  And I found I just looked at numbers heaps, because I was like, so with Wyre, it's obviously a big infrastructure company at the time, and so security becomes this huge thing.  And the team were really conscious about it and taught me a lot about just what to look for and how to secure stuff.  And you have to think like, well, what is the things you need to secure?  You have to get very granular and think very modularly about how things are affected. 

But I just thought, look, in the world, in the future, there's going to be more of a conversation between electricity and numbers.  And just Bitcoin and nonces and finding hashes, that's a proof-of-work timestamp in a physical world connected to a number on-chain.

Peter McCormack: Hold on.  So, the reason you care about this is because E=mc2 has the energy component? 

Michael Dunworth: I think what it's going to do is prove to us, and I think Bitcoin's going to be the prover, where we realise that, Oh my God, everything affects everything, kind of thing.  And we've got equations to find equilibrium where we can say, well here's the thing with this; if you study physics but you don't know anything about some other category, if you have equations that are transitive that can be borrowed from each thing, then you can learn faster.  If we found every single industry, chemistry, biology, physics, and stuff, if they all had a same common formula of behaviours, we'd be like, "Oh my God!"  Because now those fields, let's call them fields, they're industries, but let's say, whatever, the fields exist within those industries, so like colours, if we blend two colours together, right, you get one colour, red, purple, whatever you put together, you've got a new colour.  So, if we put all these fields together, we have one field now because they're all transitively the same, right? 

Peter McCormack: Hold on, you're doing Theory of Everything! 

Michael Dunworth: Well, I want a unified field theory.  I want it really badly because I think we can get --

Peter McCormack: How are you doing, by the way? 

Danny Knowles: So, you said before -- I mean, I'm lost, but loving it.

Peter McCormack: I'm so lost.

Michael Dunworth: Sorry.

Danny Knowles: No, it's great.  But you said before, you thought that basically we could unlock the keys to the universe within the next ten years, five years, I can't remember exactly.

Michael Dunworth: I reckon someone will.

Danny Knowles: Is this it, though?

Peter McCormack: But what does that actually --

Michael Dunworth: I don't think this is it, but I think something along these lines.  Like I think I would be really hard-pressed -- actually, you know what, I would guarantee that there is no unified field theory that doesn't involve the words "prime numbers".  I don't think that's possible, because they're the only common ingredient.  You can't have something unifying all the fields if it's using something that isn't in the field, in a way.

Danny Knowles: Is it even possible to know the thing we have to discover to get there?

Michael Dunworth: Well, this is the thing.  I believe that prime numbers are the thing we're not looking at, that we should be looking at.

Danny Knowles: And, in terms of finding those prime numbers, is that like a pattern recognition thing?

Michael Dunworth: Yes.  Well, this is the thing.  This is why they're so hard, is because there is no pattern.  We believe that there's no pattern because it's one or itself.

Danny Knowles: You said there was a pattern before.

Michael Dunworth: I think there's a predictable behaviour with primes.  That's why we have… CP Willans, I think, was a guy who wrote a formula on how to discover the nth prime number.  It's a really big formula, but it's funny because this formula involves just prime numbers; it involves trigonometry and geometry, all these other non-related things that people would walk out on first glance maybe.  But I think that's the key ingredient.

Peter McCormack: I know I've heard where it's broken.  Is it between, they haven't managed to unify quantum and gravity?

Michael Dunworth: They try to unify their own made-up words, basically.  So it's like, "That's not unified".   It's like, "Why?"  "Because it's a made-up word that you talked about".

Peter McCormack: That's why you need maths because maths --

Michael Dunworth: No, but we're still making shit up. 

Peter McCormack: Okay. 

Michael Dunworth: The names are all named after someone that still exists and stuff, but I'm saying those numbers, that's the canvas, that's the final, that's the arena, let's say.  Every civilisation that's come, past, present, or future, they know the arena and its numbers.  The arena isn't, "Oh, yeah, what are we going to do about spending more money?"  It's like, "Bro, we're all meant to be on the same page.  We're all electrical currents, we're all stuck on the same planet, last time I checked, and there's not anyone around, we don't have many neighbours by the looks of it.  What the fuck are we arguing for?" 

Peter McCormack: So, when you say controlling every atom within the universe…

Michael Dunworth: Well, it's sort of like you understand the behaviour of every particle in the universe, let's say. 

Peter McCormack: Okay.  What can be done with that?  Are you talking about having the ability to control your position in space and time? 

Michael Dunworth: No, I think it's less like that and more like you can produce energy signatures.  So, let's say an energy signature is just like a Bitcoin digital signature.  It's a trail, like you drive a boat through the water, it leaves an energy signature.  Oh, actually, I'll show you, let's do this.  I promise you, this is not shill.  Go back to GitHub.  So, all this shit's in the Energy folder, by the way.  Just go back to the main Energy page.  I'll show you.  It's all super-easy to understand as well.  Click on The Twist.  So, yeah, in thermodynamics, there's a thing called Thermal Equilibrium.  So, click on number 2, the Energy Signatures 2.  So, this is actually quite helpful.  I'll rip through it super-quick. 

All right, thermal equilibrium.  So, thermal equilibrium is where you've got, let's say, two cups and they're connected, and one cup has got cold water in it and then on the other one you pour hot, and then they find an equilibrium over time, they find the same temperature across all the cups.  So, what we're trying to do is say, well, instead of cups, let's try and find thermal equilibrium between different industries or different verticals, let's say.  So, you've got numbers, thermodynamics and cryptography.  So, we go down, energy signatures, just like a normal signature, it's a unique representation of something that happened.  A footprint in the sand doesn't tell me that someone drove a car across the sand, and I don't have a time machine to go back in time, but what I can do is assume that a footprint in the sand was made by a person walking across the sand.  Same thing, a shadow in the sand, I could assume that there's people standing there because it looks like a shadow, and a melted cup of ice or a melted block of ice next to a partial block of ice I would know , the temperature must have gone up in this environment.  Now, that thermal equilibrium we're talking about, "Is obtained when touching objects within a system reach the same --" that was the example I just gave with hot water and cold water.  Now, if we keep going down, I might just keep going down a bit.

So we look here, energy signatures, so numbers leave an energy signature, just like in thermodynamics we leave an energy signature. 

Danny Knowles: Wait, what's the energy signature from numbers? 

Michael Dunworth: Well that's what they are, a number of divisors, the sum of all the divisors, sum of properties of divisors and a complete list of divisors.  Because remember, a number is only produced, it's made up, it's chemistry.

Danny Knowles: So, for 6, that would be 2 and 3.

Michael Dunworth: Right, yeah, it's 2, 3, 6 and 1 or whatever.  But yes, exactly.  And so then you've got cryptography, the public key is the energy signature, and we verify a public key by verifying the energy signature, because that took electricity.  So, scroll down a second.  Sorry.

Peter McCormack: Give me more, please.

Michael Dunworth: Is this rude to --

Peter McCormack: No. 

Danny Knowles: No, this is great.

Michael Dunworth: Cool, I just didn't want to bore you guys.  So, thermodynamics and the quantities of energy, refer to them.  So, stealth boat.  So, remember James Bond, Tomorrow Never Dies, Piers Brosnan, Q was like, "How the fuck do we detect a stealth boat?"  He goes, "Well, just like a nuclear warhead, or whatever, we can't detect it by its radar, but we can detect it by its wake".  And so that's what we look at, we detect those things by wake; a sonic boom, a burnt down house, are you going to tell me what happened there?  I don't think that house died in a snowstorm.  How can you tell me that?  Well, you can't tell me that, but I can't guarantee that, but I can sort of almost guarantee that, because it looks like it burnt down and it looks like it's summer in the photo.  So, it doesn't mean you don't need all the context, but you can make pretty meaningful assumptions of what happened in certain moments. 

So, you see three cups separated, we got the cold water, this is the shitty explanation I gave before.  What happens to the new temperature?  Ta-da!  We always get a new temperature.  That new temperature looks purple, I think, equilibrium, and that's where everything's sort of found its harmonic -- now, sorry, I've got really lazy, I'm really bad with the editing and stuff, so if you see, this is obviously hot trash.  But I was basically imagining these connective points are like connective tissues through different states of the system.  So, if you keep going down, sorry.  Oh man, look how shitty my work is.  I can't believe I put this stuff on, oh mate.

Peter McCormack: It's fine! 

Michael Dunworth: No, it's trash.  But it's fine, I'm fine, I'm fine with trash.  I'm used to trash, so it's good for me.  And then we keep going down, this is sort of more of the same, okay, so numbers.  So, I think this is super-interesting.  This is like the wake of numbers, so let's keep going down.  These are divisor plots, so there's work done by this guy, called Jeffrey Ventrella.  His work is stunning and he's a really nice guy, and basically he's got this really, really amazing software where we look at, you know, it's called Divisor Plot, and it's basically a way to scan through all the divisors.  And you look at the number line, see, this is what we're looking at.  These are all numbers along the top and these are the divisors below it.  So, what one of the things is a scroll of twin primes. 

Danny Knowles: So, this would be a prime, with the purple line coming down? 

Michael Dunworth: The ones with the purple lines, because they don't have divisors, that's right.  And so, that's a twin prime.  And so we're like, well hang on, where are all these twin primes hanging out?  And then if we look, here's an example of the conditions with the divisors.  So, every single time we see these primes occur, we see the same set of divisors occur, at least to the best of my knowledge.  So, I'm like, "Okay, cool, well can someone tell me when this pattern stops?"  Because if the pattern stops, then it means it's not a rule.  But if the pattern doesn't stop, then it means it's a rule to the universe, basically. 

What I think we're seeing is that prime numbers are almost like the inheritance of magnetism from the field.  Like if we're in a three-dimensional universe and we call our universe one of a four-dimensional multiverse, so every possibility gets wrapped up into this 4D universe, think of it like an HD private key, where you can create xPubs.  Remember the xPubs?  You can create lots and lots and lots of public keys off this one private key, like a tree, a hierarchical tree.  That's like the universe.  It's sort of like every moment is a new fork, like a new fork in the tree, kind of thing.  Anyway, so yeah, just combing through I found this, this is sort of just intriguing stuff that seemed interesting.  I was like, okay, these guys are all starting to look the same in a certain similar way.  Everything, just some more inspirational stuff for me personally. 

The idea was that everything's starting to look the same, like everything's broken down in these three cups of thermal equilibrium almost, where they have their own behaviours.  So, see, I've tried to layer over the prime number behaviour over the thermal cups, or whatever.  It took about a $100,000 worth of image rendering and Photoshop skills, but we got there with that which is good!  Anyway, this is stuff that I find interesting I think other people find it interesting too, because I mean at the end of the day, I feel like we're all going to get closer to maths as we're all looking at cryptographic signatures every day, everything becomes about keys and security and stuff.  I think, I don't know, I feel like we're on the cusp as well. 

If you think about startups, right?  Albert Einstein's got a startup, it's called E=mc2.  If you've got a startup that is a truth, like a universal truth, like an equation, the beauty of that is you get every single person to use it out of the box automatically.  He's got eight billion users on his startup and he's had that for like 100 years. 

Peter McCormack: Are you dreaming about prime numbers? 

Michael Dunworth: Oh man, yeah dude!  I'll tell you what I dream about, no not literally, but I don't really dream much actually, I really wish I did.  I don't any more, but I wish I did.  So, if you think about humans, all we've done is smash shit together.  We were cavemen, smash a rock and a stick together, what happens?  Nothing, we'd break the stick.  Until finally we find something that didn't break when we hit them together.  And we're like, "Oh my God, they didn't break".  Well, let's try and break them.  So, we get two rocks, and try harder, get the big guy, and finally it goes smash, and this little spark came off.  They're like, "No, what the fuck was that?"  He's like, "Bullshit, do it again".  It's like, you know, whatever the caveman says.  He's like, "All right, let's smash it again.  Holy shit!  And now you look at CERN, the Higgs boson and stuff, what are we doing? 

Peter McCormack: Smashing shit together! 

Michael Dunworth: We're smashing shit together, and that's all they're doing.  Except now they're not smashing the rocks together, they go, "Imagine we could smash that spark together".  And that's when a caveman would have been like, "Cool, imagine smashing that really small thing together".  So, the universe and humans, we're always either smashing something really big together or really small together, because we're trying to see black holes colliding, and we're like, "Oh, cool, they create these gravity waves", or whatever it is.  And then colliding small particles, we find things like this Higgs boson, which Higgs boson is kind of like a private key to a moment.  It's a scalar particle, so it comes before all the shit that came after it.  And so, when we smash these two particles together, we kind of say like, "There it is!" like that meme where they're like, "Hey, we spotted it".  And the Higgs boson, it's not like it comes up, it's like, "Hey, I'm the Higgs boson".  It's just a ripple in the data point on the reading, or whatever.

Peter McCormack: Have you done any psychedelics and gone in to primes with psychedelics?

Michael Dunworth: No, I haven't.  Not yet, I wanted to, but I've obviously heard all this ayahuasca stuff and mushrooms and LSD and stuff like that.  No, I smoke weed, I like marijuana.  I mean, not in a rude way, but CBD I find is quite helpful for sleep sometimes.

Peter McCormack: I almost want to be there, get Danny to do DMT and go in with a prime number.  And you might come out and go, "I've got it!"

Michael Dunworth: Dude, you know what?  I don't know, but someone will get it.  I used to get really bummed out where it was like, people would say, "Oh, we're all too young to discover that".  We're too young to discover the stars and we're too old to discover the planet, and I think that's sort of not the case.  Yeah, anyway, but if this stuff is kind of close, or if magnetism is as big as we think it is, or sorry, as big as I personally think it is, or like from whatever I'm reading, it just seems like the king, like nothing gets past it; if that's the case, then it kind of makes sense, like the Earth's a giant magnet, right, literally a giant magnet, a rock, like it's a magnet.  So, what do you think's going to happen to the climate if the climate is secured by the magnetism and we go around busting up the magnetism thing like, "Yeah, let's take this little bit of rock that's highly magnetic, or whatever, put it in this thing that he's going to carry around everywhere". 

Now that if we think of like the climate almost like it's following around metal.  Basically metal and climate probably have some relationship.  Then yeah, when our cars drive down the street and then they come down the other road, the clouds are like, "Hey guys, let's go".  "Wait, which way?"  So, the whole organic flow of a system would probably get quite scrambled.  It's super-interesting, if you look at actually how many hurricanes have passed over the equator, zero.  It's actually funny, if you look at the data of a hurricane, look at a map of a hurricane, it's the funniest thing you've ever seen.  It looks like it literally goes to the equator, it goes, "Oh, fuck that, no, hell no", like literally, it turns around and walks away.  I think, I don't know if that's bullshit there, because I don't know enough about these topics to kind of know the meat.  I'm just an elementary kind of -- I mean, I think it's exciting, just interesting basically.

Peter McCormack: Mate, I have literally no idea what the fuck you're talking about with a lot of this, but I love it!

Michael Dunworth: Someone might, I think.  There's pictures though!  If you look at it through the picture.

Peter McCormack: There's pictures!

Michael Dunworth: For me, I'm the same, I've got no fucking clue either.  Don't worry, we're in the same boat.  

Peter McCormack: But I love it!

Michael Dunworth: Anyway, look, the whole conversation around energy is going to be a thing.

Peter McCormack: It already is a thing.

Michael Dunworth: Well, it already is, right, and the people the best R&D teams in the world for energy are probably going to end up -- like, the mining companies, I would be really surprised if they're not.  And you know what they're going to be mining for?  They're going to be trying to find --think about, you're a Bitcoin miner, what are you trying to do?  We need to find the right number faster than everyone else.  How do we find the right number faster than everyone else?  Well, we can do two things.  We can try and get more mining and then as that becomes heavily aggressive and commoditised and people can't make those leap functions, those big kind of innovative things that just use micro-optimisations, I reckon you're going to get a team of numbers dudes or mathematicians, or whatever, they can come in and basically say, there's probably faster or more optimal ways to find a block. 

Because we call it finding a block, but at the end of the day, these certain numbers need to connect together to basically make a hash.  Whatever happens before that doesn't matter.  The hash needs to mean...  I just sort of think about it less like a block, and more these guys are going to figure out ways that these numbers will have certain common properties, like a block must always -- I don't know what the properties will be, but common divisors, some relationship that will sort of transcend the actual essence of what Bitcoin is or What Bitcoin Did.

Peter McCormack: Hey!

Michael Dunworth: You're welcome! Where's my $100?!  No, I'm joking!  No, but basically, you'll have it with basically, I think the Bitcoin miners will be the forefront of energy innovation.  I think we'll enter into basically an age of energy.  We're in the age of information now, but we've sort of finished the game, there's not really much more information to go.  There's a couple of areas that we've got to get, but I think soon we'll finish information and ChatGPT, those systems will probably help us get there.  But then it's going to be onto energy and more physical things, like how do we actually innovate on that stuff?  And I reckon that's where we're going to go really cool stuff.  I really I really think there's a lot of cool stuff coming.

Peter McCormack: Can we go and get a beer?

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, I'm sticking to it.

Peter McCormack: Fucking hell, man!

Michael Dunworth: I'm sorry!

Peter McCormack: Don't worry, I've had plenty of podcasts where I have no idea.  When I'm with Andrew Poelstra, I sit down with Andrew Poelstra for an hour and every time, at the end, I just go, "By the way, I've got no idea what the fuck you just told me, but it was great to see you again!"  I've got no idea what you just spoke about for about the last hour, but I love it!

Michael Dunworth: Trust me, you'll love it.  I think you might, maybe.  We'll see how we go.  But anyway!

Peter McCormack: Man!

Michael Dunworth: Is this how far down the rabbit hole I am?

Peter McCormack: Is this the first time we've made a podcast?

Michael Dunworth: Yes, I think so.

Danny Knowles: Yeah, it is.

Peter McCormack: Why?

Michael Dunworth: I don't know.  Because, oh, I think you wanted to do one, but it was like, "Sorry, I only do in person".  Yeah, I was like, "Whatever, dude, bye"!

Peter McCormack: That is true.

Michael Dunworth: No, but it was that.  I think that's good, by the way, in terms of quality control for content, I think I like that.

Peter McCormack: That might change.

Michael Dunworth: Did I say it was cool?  I said it's actually probably worth changing!

Peter McCormack: No, but do you know what it is?  There's other things we want to do, and the travel is a very inefficient way to make a podcast.  So, it's a trade-off.  The quality of in-person versus the inefficiency of having to get us two and guests in the same part of the world. 

Michael Dunworth: How far will you go for your content? 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and so, we'll still do a lot, but I'll talk to you about it after the show. 

Danny Knowles: We'll just go through the wormhole soon. 

Michael Dunworth: Yeah, probably.  Dr Strange that shit up! 

Peter McCormack: Give me that prime number, I'll jump through the wormhole, I'll be in Australia, we'll record again.

Michael Dunworth: There you go!

Peter McCormack: Mike, I fucking love you, man. 

Michael Dunworth: I love you too, good to see you. 

Peter McCormack: Can we go get a beer? 

Michael Dunworth: Let's do it.

Peter McCormack: Let's do it. 

Michael Dunworth: Thanks.