WBD698 Audio Transcription
Orange Pilling Your Kids with Samantha de Waal
Release date: Friday 18th August
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Samantha de Waal. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.
Samantha De Waal is a 12-year-old lifetime Bitcoiner. In this interview, we discuss her experiences as a Bitcoiner, including her challenges in being taken seriously as a young advocate. We also talk about the importance of considering children's needs and perspectives in the Bitcoin community and more generally in society.
“Bitcoin is – in my opinion – the future of money… so why trade it for Euro, or Pounds, or Dollars if you’re going to hold onto the Bitcoin and be able to use it in the future?”
— Samantha De Waal
Interview Transcription
Peter McCormack: I mean, my view is, fuck school. Oh, sorry, I shouldn't swear. My view is, screw school. I mean, what's going to be a better education, Riga or school?
Samantha de Waal: Riga.
Peter McCormack: There we go. I think we get it.
Samantha de Waal: My old school, for some reason, like was like, "Yeah, you can go on a three-month skiing trip, but you cannot go two weeks to El Salvador". That is absolutely not acceptable.
Peter McCormack: They have these dumb rules. I have it with my daughter sometimes, because there's ski trips and rugby trips and cricket trips and I'm like, "Hey, I want to take my kids to Glastonbury for three days", "No". I was like, "Well, this is musical education".
Samantha de Waal: Exactly.
Peter McCormack: Big part of life. Samantha, welcome to What Bitcoin Did.
Samantha de Waal: Thank you.
Peter McCormack: Is this your first podcast?
Samantha de Waal: No, not yet. Well, not my first.
Peter McCormack: How many have you done?
Samantha de Waal: I've had one in person and two over camera, not in person.
Peter McCormack: So I don't even get the first in person? What shows have you been on? You better not have been on Pomp.
Samantha de Waal: No, I've been one with, I forgot the name, but it was in the Czech Republic when I was at --
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I don't care! Who else?
Samantha de Waal: DJ Valerie and Once Bitten.
Peter McCormack: Once Bitten, who's that?
Samantha de Waal: Daniel Prince.
Peter McCormack: Oh, yeah, Danny Prince, of course, because his daughter --
Samantha de Waal: Is my age, yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, she's your buddy.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, we're friends.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, okay. Well, they don't count. This is the first big one!
Samantha de Waal: Okay!
Peter McCormack: I'm only joking, Princey. Well, thank you for coming on. You're not here as a novelty. You're here because I saw your unbelievable presentation in Prague. I didn't know you were going on after Saylor, and like a typical boomer, I don't know if I was a bit condescending, but I was a bit worried about you going on after him, and you absolutely crushed it. I think you know you crushed it.
Samantha de Waal: Thank you.
Peter McCormack: What was it like for you?
Samantha de Waal: So before, of course, I was very nervous because it's the first big stage I've been on. I've only been in El Salvador stage before then. That was only maybe a couple of hundred people, but this one was really like more than a thousand people, I think. And I was nervous before it, but when I was on stage, I tried to keep it natural, just talk about what I wanted to talk about. And after I was done, I felt proud of myself and relieved and a mix of emotions at the same time.
Peter McCormack: So, it could easily be seen as novelty getting you on, because you're 12, right?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah 12.
Peter McCormack: It could be seen as a novelty, we're just going to get you on because you're 12, and whatever, but actually there's a couple of reasons that I wanted to get you on the podcast, well, three reasons. Firstly is that it's important for us to think about kids and Bitcoin and how kids think about Bitcoin and education for the future. I've got two kids as well and so that's important. Secondly, you gave an amazing presentation on its own; forget about your age, it was a really good presentation.
Samantha de Waal: Thank you.
Peter McCormack: And the third reason is, you're better than your dad! And so, we're going to pump your numbers as well. But no, they're all reasons to get you on. And I think as a Bitcoiner, sometimes we can be a little bit, we live in our own little world. We talk about stupid things that you know about. We talk about when Blockbuster was here and now we have streaming; we talk about when there was a time when there were no mobile phones; and we don't think about the things that you think about, where this is all just natural. So, I think you can hopefully open our eyes up a little bit here. But firstly, just so people know who you are, because some of them might not just introduce yourself.
Samantha de Waal: So, I'm Samantha de Waal, I'm 12 years old, born in April. I live in Germany, but my dad is Ben de Waal. I learned about Bitcoin actually almost from when I was born, I just had it as a thing growing up. I've never really learned about banks, but have learned about Bitcoin. of course use Bitcoin as much as possible. And yeah, that's mainly about me.
Peter McCormack: So, there's no time like, say for example, with me I can go, "Well, in 2013, I discovered Bitcoin because of X, and then in 2017 I actually started using Bitcoin and then started learning about the world of Bitcoin"; for you, it's been a bit more like, "It's always been there, like mobile phones, the internet, Bitcoin"?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, it's always been like that. The most I could say to that would be, when I started using Bitcoin more frequently was about when I went to Swan Bitcoin and when I went to El Salvador, just because in Germany, unfortunately, there's not that many places you can pay with Bitcoin yet, but I will orange pill more places hopefully.
Peter McCormack: There we go. Okay, so I think a good starting point is, for us as adults, people like me, what are our blind spots with regards to kids?
Samantha de Waal: So, to keep it first on Bitcoin, because I do have a few spots there, a lot of people always think that I, as a 12-year-old bitcoiner, I'm just reading the script off that my dad wrote when I was on stage and that I don't know anything about Bitcoin. But I try to prove them wrong, of course, because well they are wrong. But I have to say that I don't get taken serious sometimes just because I am a kid, and I feel like adults need to treat kids sometimes like they are grown-ups and not just like they're 5-year-olds that don't know anything about the world.
Peter McCormack: Well, listen, I'll make you feel better. I'm 44 and most people in Bitcoin don't take me seriously. So, I won't worry too much about that, you're already ahead! I think that's a battle you're going to have for a while. But I think you'll have it more outside of Bitcoin than in Bitcoin.
Samantha de Waal: I also have it outside of Bitcoin, yes, like when I try to convince the old school that I went to, I'm now thankfully changing schools, about, "Hey, I want to go to El Salvador for two weeks, I want to go there on a Bitcoin stage and I want to talk about Bitcoin to people". They just think I can't do that because I'm a kid and my dad's just forcing me into something, but he's not.
Peter McCormack: Right, let's get into that. Okay, so during the school term, you wanted to go away for a two-week break, and what's the process; do you pitch it first, or does your dad ask, or…?
Samantha de Waal: So, I have to tell them that I'm going to go away for two weeks, they give me a paper, and then I have to have all my subject teachers sign it and tell me what to do while I'm also on my leave. And then, I also needed to have a little more discussion with them about, why do you want to do it? And then they also discussed with me, "You know, you've been sick a lot before this school year. Why are you now also leaving for another two weeks? That's going to miss a lot of your learning". But in my personal opinion, I think I learned more with being at Pacific Bitcoin and Adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador than learning in school.
Peter McCormack: And so, when you pitched this to the teachers, you're obviously bringing up the subject of Bitcoin, and most of us in our little Bitcoin world are seen as weirdos on the outside world. Is it more the fact they didn't take Bitcoin seriously or they didn't take you seriously with the Bitcoin or a bit of both?
Samantha de Waal: I think it's really both because the teachers always when they talk about a topic that's somehow connected to a student, they always kind of look at the students like, "Hey, isn't that your topic and you're passionate about it?" but then they also sometimes talk about it, "Yeah, this topic is great. But you on the other hand, you're too young to know, you're just too young".
Peter McCormack: So, they think it's your dad just feeding you ideas?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what they think.
Samantha de Waal: So how did you deal with that?
Peter McCormack: I basically just talked them into, "Well, I'm going to go anyways. I'm sorry, but I am going to go". And after a while, they just said, "Yeah, fine. Okay, we're signing it, but you'd better do online Google Classroom stuff". I did use Google Classroom a bit, but I was mainly just reading on what they posted, because I think I'm a little bit ahead of my class, so I didn't really need to actively try and learn things while I was there because I actively was learning things about Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Did you have to discuss Bitcoin with your teachers and did you have any tricky conversations, where they didn't understand it or they were not taking it serious?
Samantha de Waal: A little. So, most teachers that I actually tried to even just bring the topic up were like, "No, this is not part of a lesson plan, and [I] need to do other stuff. This is not important, just drop the idea". But there was one teacher that was actually my design subject teacher, that has already known a bit about Bitcoin and was in the Bitcoin space for a few years, and he was actually like, "Yeah, I can easily sign permission and you don't actually need to do anything for design while you're off for those two weeks".
Peter McCormack: So, has this given you a different perspective on schooling? What do you think about schooling?
Samantha de Waal: Well, in Germany, I don't like schooling that much anyways, because we have this thing called Schulpflicht that we have to go to school and there's no easy way to just say, "Hey, I'm going to a Bitcoin conference, why can't I just like get out of school?"
Peter McCormack: What do you mean Schulpflicht?
Samantha de Waal: Schulpflicht, it's a German word for, you have to go to school.
Peter McCormack: Compulsory.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, it's like requirements that you go to school unless you're sick and have a sick note, or whatever.
Peter McCormack: A legal requirement.
Samantha de Waal: Exactly.
Peter McCormack: Okay, and if you don't go, dad gets in trouble?
Samantha de Waal: Exactly.
Peter McCormack: Right, okay. I mean, I think we have something similar here. Yeah, no, I know, because if kids don't go to school, we call it truant, if they go truant and they skip school. If they skip school enough, then I think it's the police or the local authorities will contact the parents and the parents can get in trouble. So, we have something similar.
Samantha de Waal: Unfortunately, in Germany also, online schooling isn't allowed though, you have to go to school in person. Only for the coronavirus lockdown, I actually had online schooling, but there's no easy other possible way; or homeschooling.
Peter McCormack: You can do homeschooling, or you can't?
Samantha de Waal: We can't.
Peter McCormack: You're not allowed to homeschool?
Samantha de Waal: No, not in Germany.
Peter McCormack: So, you have to go to school and you have to do the curriculum they want. Is there opportunity for individualism, individual flair, individual ideas?
Samantha de Waal: I think because I went to an international school, I think it was more expressed there. In the international school, just because there's so many different people with so many different opinions, I think yes, I did express myself a little more there. But now I'm going to a German school that I actually think, for some reason, that it's going to be easier to orange pill because in the international school, I feel like they had their strong opinions like, "Hey, we are an international school, there are so many different kids of many cultures, but we stick to these opinions and we are the authority, so that's what we're going to do". But I feel like in the German school that I'm going to go to, it might be a little easier to talk about Bitcoin and why I think it's better, why I think I should be able to go to these podcasts and conferences.
Peter McCormack: I mean, I think it's pretty exceptional. Sorry, I don't mean again, not in a condescending way, but as a 12-year-old that you are invited to conferences on your own merit to speak in front of hundreds or now thousands of people, you're invited to go on the podcasts. I mean, this show will be heard by tens of thousands of people, and you're getting it by merit. To me, that feels like something, if you're going to celebrate sports, you know, individualism in sports, somebody's a great athlete, why wouldn't you celebrate this?
Samantha de Waal: I don't actually understand why the teachers would not see it that way. I think it's just because I've always grown up with it, it's a casual thing for me. It's literally just like, "Hey, I have a football team that I support, I want to go to the match", the school says sure. "I want to go to a Bitcoin conference, I want to support the bitcoiners, I want to see these presentations", the school says no. I don't understand the difference.
Peter McCormack: So they might let you come to watch my football team.
Samantha de Waal: I can ask.
Peter McCormack: We can Trojan horse some Bitcoin there for you. Okay, so again, is this another example of adults not understanding children and what would you change about schooling?
Samantha de Waal: I'd change that if the student is capable of already knowing the stuff that's going to be learned, that they should definitely be able to try and learn as much as possible. So, I think school shouldn't be, you have to go to school for school; I think school should be, you have to go there for learning. And I feel like that's not expressed enough in the old school that I went to, because when I want to go to maths class and it's too easy for me, I have to go there, I have to do it anyways; but if I want to go to somewhere else to learn something which I find more important, like Bitcoin, for some reason I'm just not allowed to because I have to go to school. And if I'm not going to learn anything, well then too bad, I have to be there anyways, I have to finish the assignments.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's like that support for this individual flair and it's almost like they're missing this unique thing that you've got, and with the wrong kid I think that could be lost. All right, well then let's talk about El Salvador. Did you go to Pac Bitcoin first or El Salvador first; which was the order?
Samantha de Waal: Pacific Bitcoin first.
Peter McCormack: Okay, so you went up to LA?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: I was there, I don't remember seeing you there.
Samantha de Waal: I wasn't on stage there, I only flew there with my dad because he worked at Swan Bitcoin, and he was required to be there, so we were both there. I hung out mostly at the arcade area, I found that area really fun!
Peter McCormack: Of course!
Samantha de Waal: I paid for the food in Bitcoin, my dad gave me a few sats before that so I could pay for a few things.
Peter McCormack: All right, let's back up a second. Okay, so Bitcoin's always been around. Do you get pocket money or do you work for your money?
Samantha de Waal: I get pocket money monthly.
Peter McCormack: Always in Bitcoin?
Samantha de Waal: Almost always in Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Almost always in Bitcoin.
Samantha de Waal: My mum gives me sometimes money to go to the mall where unfortunately, no Bitcoin yet, but if I just keep going into shops asking, "Can I pay with Bitcoin?" and walking out if they say no, at some point they're going to have to say, "Fine, we accept Bitcoin".
Peter McCormack: Is that what you're doing?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: What do your friends say when you do that?
Samantha de Waal: They get kind of annoyed because, "Oh my God, we wanted frozen yogurt today, Sam". "Well, too bad, they don't accept Bitcoin and I don't have any money with me except for my Bitcoin. Too bad".
Peter McCormack: Love it! Okay, so I mean, you never tell how much Bitcoin you've had, but so you get your Bitcoin, you have your own, I guess you've got your own custody solution, you've got your own wallets.
Samantha de Waal: So, I have a cold storage that unlocks when I'm older. That's where my main money is stored that I'm going to use in the future. I don't want to spend it now yet because Bitcoin will be the future money and I want to save it for then when I'm older. And I also have a Lightning wallet on my phone where I just get a few sats every month, or whatever, and that always is relatively low anyways because I spend them.
Peter McCormack: Okay, I'm going to tell you again why this is brilliant and why you're here by merit, because I'm going to tell you another story. So, the majority of people that come on my show are men and predominantly white men, that's a lot of Bitcoin. And I'm a single man and I was dating a girl and she looked up my podcast on YouTube and she said to me, she said, "You haven't got hardly any women on here, you need more women". And I asked her why. She said, "Well, I don't really want to hear from blokes and men how I should manage my money, I want to hear from women". I was like, "Huh". And so we've made a conscious effort to get more women on the podcast.
My daughter does not listen to my podcast. She knows what I do. I guarantee she'll listen to this, and I guarantee she's going to come back to me and say, "Dad, I want some pocket money in Bitcoin". And again, this is why you're here by merit, because that's useful. Okay, so you're like, you're like literally going into shops and harassing people. I love this!
Samantha de Waal: Oh, yeah!
Peter McCormack: Have you converted any shops yet?
Samantha de Waal: I think one of them I already kind of converted. They said they're going to think about it and they put a Bitcoin sticker up. They don't really understand how it works. I mean, when I tried to pay with Bitcoin, they opened the app and didn't really understand it. I had to press the buttons for them. And I think they only did it for me because I go there a lot, but I hope that if I just go there more and maybe even send my friends on their own, that they're going to just have it for everyone.
Peter McCormack: Okay, so have you orange-pilled some of your friends? Almost all of them, I think. What kind of volume, what kind of number are you talking about?
Samantha de Waal: We're talking about, well my class is 11 people, the other class is also like 13 people. I think I've probably orange-pilled like 20 of the 24.
Peter McCormack: So you got like 20 of the kids orange-pilled and you're trying to get the -- so it's the teachers who are behind?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: This is like a youth revolution within the school!
Samantha de Waal: Yeah!
Peter McCormack: Do you have a meetup for you all where you discuss Bitcoin?
Samantha de Waal: We always hang out after school. I always hang out Fridays with them and it's usually Fridays. I don't really know what they discuss the other days, but Fridays we usually do discuss Bitcoin quite a bit, especially for those friends that still have so many questions for me. Like, some of them were like, "Okay, so I think it's an environmental killer", then I had a huge discussion with them about why it's actually good for the environment, and now they kind of get it, and I just have to explain more and more until they finally fully understand.
Peter McCormack: Okay. So, of your 20 friends who are orange-pilled, there's going to be a spectrum. Are there any who are nearing your level where they can go and orange-pill people?
Samantha de Waal: I think five of them probably.
Peter McCormack: Okay. And I wonder, do you know if they're going home and then talking to their parents about it?
Samantha de Waal: Two of them have told me that they've talked to their parents about it. One of them, I was playing an online game and they wanted to buy me some currency in that online game, but I didn't have any money on me. So I said, "Hey, install this wallet right here. Install Wallet of Satoshi, I will send you some satoshis". And then she went to her dad and went like, "Hey, dad, there's this really cool thing". And her dad also happened to know about it before and also had a wallet installed, but just never talked about it to his daughter because he thought his daughter was a little too young to actually understand this.
Peter McCormack: See, I think that's another thing, because there are some complexities with Bitcoin technically, with managing your private keys with your wallets. I think thinking that maybe a 10-, 11-, 12-year-old can handle this, I think it may be a bit presumptuous. I've thought that about my daughter. My son's 19, right, so I'm actively in the process. He came to me, right, you'll love this.
So, when both my kids were born, I put £50 a month into a bank account for them, which by the way, for my son that started in 2004. If it had been 2009, if I'd just put £50 into Bitcoin, he'd have a lot of money. But anyway, so he had like £12,000 by the time he got access to the account. He just came to me and said, "Dad, I want to put it all into Bitcoin". Obviously I'm like, "Great", but I'm like, "Okay, because you're 19". But with my daughter, I was like, no, we should maybe wait, but I'm probably waiting too long now, aren't I?
Samantha de Waal: Maybe yeah, could be.
Peter McCormack: All right, I'll tell you what, I am definitely going to get her to listen to this and I'll give you the feedback. Okay, so your group of friends, your little revolution, you've orange-pilled a bunch of them, they're now talking to their parents, have you guys managed to get to a point where it's being discussed in class?
Samantha de Waal: It has been discussed once, but that was by the headmaster. I think she just talked about it because I talked to her about Bitcoin recently, she was like, "Okay, so there's a few things about the future that we didn't expect, like AI models are coming on, there's this thing called Bitcoin". She took a pause and just looked at me for like five seconds; I felt really uncomfortable! And then some of the class students also turned to me like, "Are you okay?" and then she just continued talking about a few things. One of the students raised their hands and asked a question about Bitcoin. She was like, "I don't know". And then that student turned to me and I discussed with them after class about it.
Peter McCormack: Okay, let's go back to Pac Bitcoin. We've backed up, we understand your backstory. Do you actually even remember how old you were when you first got Bitcoin? Has it just literally always been there?
Samantha de Waal: I think my dad bought it for me when I was really small, like I was just a few months old or something. I don't remember the exact day, no.
Peter McCormack: See, the other thing for someone like me, I've grown up with cash, and cash and my card, but Bitcoin was a new thing I had to adopt, so I had to think about volatility, I had to think about currency conversions in my head. But if you've always had it, it's a bit like the internet. You don't know a world with no internet, so this is all just natural to you.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: So, I probably should have started even younger. All right, anyway, back to Pac Bitcoin, the first conference --
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, that was the first one I was at.
Peter McCormack: -- what was that like for you?
Samantha de Waal: So, when I was watching the presentations, I found most of them very, honestly, finance-focused at Pacific Bitcoin. It was more of the trading and, "Hey, this is worth that much", but I never really had any interest in the trading because Bitcoin is, in my opinion, the future of money that is going to be used, so why trade it for euro or pound or dollars if you're going to hold on to the Bitcoin and be able to use it in the future? And if you want to put your euro, pound or dollar into Bitcoin, I never had to think of that either because I just get paid my pocket money by my dad in Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: I'm so worried for my job right now, Ben! Please don't start a podcast. I'll pack up! Okay, all right, so what talks you want to go to then; what are the areas that you were most interested in with Bitcoin?
Samantha de Waal: So, I actually found the one in BTC Prague, I found that one really good, just because they had a wide variety of speakers, and I really liked the fact that they had a mini Czech stage for just people in the area to come and also learn a bit about it. I think that was really well organised and that they had a big community hall hangout area. I think that's also how more bitcoiners can really connect with each other and not just see each other on stage, actually have conversations, because otherwise it's usually just in the audience or more kind of outside of food areas, where you just want to eat, relax, have a break usually.
Peter McCormack: Well, actually no, we want to hang out!
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, it's when I try to approach people though at Pacific Bitcoin, it was they were usually eating or just like in the corner somewhere where I thought, "Okay, maybe I won't talk to that person right now", and just waited until they were like roaming through the halls to try and approach them.
Peter McCormack: Were there specific people you wanted to meet?
Samantha de Waal: So, I was already looking at my dad's Twitter a tiny bit, I didn't have a Twitter yet, but I was looking at my dad's Twitter and Lina, the little hotdog person, I really wanted to meet her. I didn't see her there, at least I'm pretty sure I didn't see her there, but I did see her at BTC Prague.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, she's great. We've got a Real Bedford little hodler coming soon.
Samantha de Waal: I have the BTC Prague hodler and the girl hodler.
Peter McCormack: All right, well I'll get you a Real Bedford one. Okay, so let's talk about El Salvador because that's Bitcoin country. I don't know if you know, I've been a few times and I was lucky enough to interview the President; very interesting experience. I was very nervous for that, not as nervous as I am today, but I was pretty nervous for that. Tell me about your visit to El Salvador. What were you looking forward to; did it meet your expectations; was it different from your expectations?
Samantha de Waal: So personally, I was really looking forward to actually paying things in Bitcoin, because in Germany I can pay for a few things, but it's more usually here, put your card here, and I don't have a card, I can't even open a bank account at 12. But in El Salvador, I could just use the money that I've grown up with, which is Bitcoin, anywhere, which was really exciting. And I really liked the fact that when we went to McDonald's, that there was a separate button that said, "Pay with Bitcoin". It just felt right to have a button that said, "Pay with Bitcoin".
Peter McCormack: Yeah. I went to McDonald's on the day Bitcoin launched as legal tender, and went and got a, what did I have? A double cheeseburger. It worked really smooth, really smooth. Okay, so did you go into San Salvador, the capital?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Okay, did you go to El Zonte?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, we went there.
Peter McCormack: What do you think of El Zonte?
Samantha de Waal: I think it's a lot different to where I live in Germany. I think it's just the community. I mean, it's also a different continent, but it's the communities that are just different. But I think it's a really nice community of nice people, and the fact that they all use Bitcoin, well, most of them use Bitcoin at least because it's a legal tender there, it just kind of connects people a bit more. Because when everyone uses euro or dollar or pound, sure it connects people a tiny bit, but they don't really need to understand it. They went to finance school and they understand how to open a bank account and stuff, but they don't really have so many aspects to it. I mean, you pay for stuff with it, that's all most people know.
But with Bitcoin, it's a bit more, this can also help the world, this can be more environmentally friendly and stuff. And a lot of people can just kind of meet each other through Bitcoin, that are also, for example, environmentalists.
Peter McCormack: Okay, so let's now fast-forward to Prague. You get an invite to do a presentation. How do you plan for that?
Samantha de Waal: So first, I wrote down in notes what I'm actually going to have to present about, and then usually I just use Google Slides because in my opinion it's the easiest.
Peter McCormack: No, I mean what message did you want to get across? You're going to do a presentation, what did you want to leave people thinking?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, that's the thing. I put in Google Slides what I think really strongly, like in BTC Prague, it was the Kids Bitcoin Month that I was mainly focusing to try and get really people to think about, because I feel like the whole idea of Bitcoin Kids Month really just connects with what I've been passionate about, Bitcoin and Kids in Bitcoin spaces that can really find topics that they're all interested in.
Peter McCormack: Okay. But again, the message. So, Kids in Bitcoin, but what message would you -- because your message is going out to adults? And I know some kids will get to it, but it's going to mainly be heard by adults. What do you want us to hear from you?
Samantha de Waal: I want adults to hear that Bitcoin can be also used by kids and that they aren't always supposed to be so focused on, "Hey, this is trade; hey, this is this", more that Bitcoin can really be reliable for everyone, because not all adults in the Bitcoin space understand that. I mean, the Bitcoin space is a really big space and a lot of people with different interests.
Peter McCormack: Okay, so you keep talking about bank accounts. You've never had one; you can't get one?
Samantha de Waal: No, I can't get one, I'm 12 years old. In Germany, it's 16 I think.
Peter McCormack: We can do a weird thing in the UK where you can like get a card on a parent's account. I mean, my kids never had one. I guess this is -- do you want a bank account or do you think you might have to have one by necessity?
Samantha de Waal: I hope I don't have to have one by necessity. I think it might happen, but I hope I don't. I'd prefer if I just be able to use Bitcoin in the future.
Peter McCormack: Only Bitcoin?
Samantha de Waal: I think yes, only Bitcoin, just because I feel like if I am able to use Bitcoin in the future, then if everyone finally understands it, it would be more openly discussed and people wouldn't be so closed and scared of, "Hey, this is crypto, this is scary". Instead, if it were just used by more people, more shops, it would be openly discussed a little more.
Peter McCormack: Okay, look, there's going to be a lot of people in Bitcoin who have got kids, who it hasn't resonated with them the way it has with you. Why has Bitcoin grabbed you so much? Why do you think it has appealed to you?
Samantha de Waal: It helps me a lot with a lot of things that I believe in strongly, like I personally really like the environment. I've had, especially in the international school, we discussed a lot about, "Hey, this could happen to our environment. We're not supposed to litter so much, burn fossil fuels so much", stuff like that. And Bitcoin using the leftover things, I forgot how they're called!
Peter McCormack: Unused energy, wasted energy.
Samantha de Waal: That thing, unused energy and wasted energy, I think that really just helps me kind of see why both things are good and why we need it, because if I have two interests that can connect with each other, it makes me interested in both of them more.
Peter McCormack: Okay, and how do you cope with the volatility?
Samantha de Waal: Sometimes it's a little hard to cope with it, to be honest. So I'm not sure, always sure, if I always cope with it.
Peter McCormack: Because you're essentially on a Bitcoin standard yourself. If you've only ever really had Bitcoin, apart from a few euros that your mum may give you occasionally for certain things, you are living fully on a Bitcoin standard.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: That's a challenge!
Samantha de Waal: It is sometimes, especially when I want to pay with Bitcoin somewhere and I can't orange-pill them as quick as I hoped or expected, and then it's a little annoying sometimes. But if we give it time, it will work.
Peter McCormack: Does that affect your decision making on when you're going to buy certain things?
Samantha de Waal: It does sometimes. So, when I get euro in the morning to just buy bread rolls or whatever, I do it, it's easy. But if I want to use Bitcoin, which I mainly do want to use, it depends, like, "Okay, I'm not going to be able to use it today, I know it, I still need to orange-pill them". So, I'll walk into the shop, I might say like, "Hey, friend, can you help me and also walk into the shop, ask for Bitcoin", and then I go to that one shop a week later, and if they still don't, for example, accept Bitcoin, and I need, like, a birthday gift for my dad, my dad had his birthday recently, then I'll just have to pay in euro because unfortunately I couldn't make it.
Peter McCormack: You can't miss his birthday. What is this about daughters and not missing birthdays? My daughter gets mine every -- my son, he's 19, he still forgets. My daughter, every birthday, she gets it. Why are girls so good at this?
Samantha de Waal: I think I just kind of remember my family's birthday, like I know my grandma's, my grandpa's, mum's, dad's, great-grandma's. I just know people's birthday because I connect it with their identity. For example, my dad's birthday is on 11 August, so I always connect it and he always likes autumn, he just likes the leaves and the breeze and the clouds, so I can easily connect that with him.
Peter McCormack: My kids can never forget mine because it's Halloween. And do you know why that's also an important date? 31 October?
Samantha de Waal: 31 October? Yeah, that's --
Peter McCormack: Whitepaper day, yeah. Think that's a coincidence?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah probably.
Peter McCormack: Yeah of course it is, yeah!
Samantha de Waal: It's not coincidence, it's destiny.
Peter McCormack: Oh, my God, Sam, I love you! All right, okay, so you've done a lot so far. Do you think much about your future in terms of inside Bitcoin or outside Bitcoin, or is it all one to you?
Samantha de Waal: To me, Bitcoin is just part of my life, so I don't really have a life and a Bitcoin life, it's both just integrated into my main life, where of course I think about the future a lot, especially I think as a kid, people think about, well kids think about the future a lot because as kids, you always want to be older than your actual age; but then when you're adults, you want to be a little younger, because as kids you always want to say, "Hey, I want to be able to actually do things for myself, I want to be able to go out, I want to be able to be heard more, people have to take me seriously". But then as adults it's like, "But as a kid, it was easier. As a kid, my back problems didn't exist, my legs didn't hurt all the time".
Peter McCormack: Oh my God, you know all my problems! I actually had to have a back surgery a couple years ago. Look, don't grow up, it's a trick, I'm telling you, it is a trick. There's a meme of that. I think the question I was asking is career-wise, like when you think about what you want to do when you grow up, when you're young, you think about that. Do you think in terms of what you've been doing now; do you see that as a future, or is this a side gig for you?
Samantha de Waal: Both. So, I'd say I've always actually as a kid wanted to be an actor, but connecting it with Bitcoin, I think it would be really fun. Like, I recently, it's still in production, so I made an ad for SeedHammer, and I think doing stuff like that would be really, really fun, just integrating Bitcoin into an acting life.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, okay, well I wonder if you can do anything for us, guys?
Samantha de Waal: Hopefully, probably.
Peter McCormack: We've got a football club, a podcast and a bar. You probably can't do the bar, although that might be funny. I'll have a think about that. What about in terms of presentations; are you planning to do any more conferences?
Samantha de Waal: I'm planning to come to as many as possible.
Peter McCormack: Have you got any lined up?
Samantha de Waal: So, I want to go to the one in Riga, but we'd have to ask the school and stuff. I'm hopefully going to go to the one in El Salvador again this year; BTC Prague next year, I'm definitely going there. I don't really think I want to go to the Miami Conference to be honest.
Peter McCormack: Well, it's going to Nashville now, so why do you think you don't want to go?
Samantha de Waal: I think it's just not really the part of Bitcoin that I really enjoy, since there's so many aspects of Bitcoin. I think it's more of the companies and buying and trading, which isn't really the part I'm interested in.
Peter McCormack: I would pitch it to you in a different way. I think that conference probably needs you more than you need that conference. So, when you start thinking about in terms of what you want to get out of it, I think you're possibly right. But when I think of what Bitcoin can get from you, sorry dad, I actually think it'd be very useful. I mean, look, as your career in presenting, it'll be another step up because BTC Prague, I think you were in front of a couple of thousand people; there you could be in front of two, three times that, so that's a progression for you, but I think you'll nail it. But I also think it's important for those people to hear from somebody like you. This message is super-important, your education, the way you think about Bitcoin, the way kids think about Bitcoin is super-important. I'm not a huge Miami fan, but Nashville is cool, so I would pitch you to do it for us for selfish reasons. Does that make sense?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, I'll definitely take that into account.
Peter McCormack: Are you thinking about different topics you want to do? Would you maybe write a book? Don't start a podcast!
Samantha de Waal: Books, yes. I've always enjoyed reading as a kid since I was small, and I always really liked when we were allowed to write stories. In fourth grade, we had a long time where we were allowed to just type whatever we wanted like, "Today, our topic is going to be about, I don't know, the Titanic. Just come up with a story including the Titanic. It can be a Titanic in space if you want, honestly".
Peter McCormack: Love it.
Samantha de Waal: So, as a fourth-grader, I did integrate Bitcoin into one of my stories once, but I was kind of scared. Like, as a fourth-grader, I was insecure, like what would the teacher say? What if the teacher gets me in trouble? Because I've always heard from so many people that Bitcoin is bad and stuff. And I was scared, what if it's only a thing that a few people actually know that's good? But now when I'm older, I just look back at that and think I was just being a little scared and insecure about something I wasn't supposed to. And I try to include Bitcoin in a lot more of my Google Sheets and Google Presentations, just a little without my teachers noticing so much, but them still noticing and having the thought, idea in mind. Like, there was an experimental thing. If you play a movie and there's going to be a millisecond of seeing Coca-Cola, people are more likely to buy Coca-Cola and drink it afterwards.
Peter McCormack: Listen to you! I love this! All right, so you're going to do more conferences, you might write more and you're not going to start a podcast?
Samantha de Waal: No.
Peter McCormack: Okay, please don't. I think you should, by the way, I think you'll crush it. And so, when you think of the world of Bitcoin, how are you consuming Bitcoin? Because I consume Bitcoin from Twitter, some podcasts and some news sites, and then maybe meetups, meeting people and talking about it. What are your sources?
Samantha de Waal: So, I really, as I mentioned, I really like reading, so I do read a lot of Bitcoin books. I also go a lot on Twitter and read about it there and see what other people think of it, because I think when you hear other people talk about it, it's just more helpful to see what people's perspectives are and how you can agree, relate or any of that. I do watch a couple of podcasts and I actually am planning on installing one or two of the learning apps that my dad has on his phone. It's like a Duolingo, but Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Which podcast do you watch?
Samantha de Waal: I watch DJ Valerie's podcast because I think she really has a nice community there, and I watch most of the shows that my dad's on. Like, if I see one episode with my dad, I watch that and then watch a couple of other episodes of that podcast.
Peter McCormack: Keep going. Do you watch What Bitcoin Did?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, I have watched two or three episodes.
Peter McCormack: Only when your dad's on!
Samantha de Waal: No, not only when my dad's on. I saw another one, but I forgot the name of the person right now.
Peter McCormack: I love DJ Valerie. I saw her, she actually played in Miami, she DJd there. Well, maybe you should do a podcast, maybe we need one that is --
Samantha de Waal: Maybe we do.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, because maybe that's the one my daughter would listen to. And maybe then she would tell her friends and I could help you monetise it. There's good money in podcasting, by the way, I could help you with that. Okay, so when you're seeing the topics that people are discussing on Twitter, what are the ones you are drawn to and what are the things you think we're all being stupid about?
Samantha de Waal: So, I always get really annoyed when I see all those thoughts in the comments like, "Hey, follow this account, this account really helped me understand about crypto". That really annoys me, especially when other people actually fall for that, and just actually people that I know, have seen in real life, or whatever, just comment on that and actually fall for it. It kind of annoys me a lot and I try to avoid those comments. I usually just go on the tweet by now, look at the first few tweets, never go, "Show additional tweets", because that's just the bots at this point.
Peter McCormack: Yeah but topic-wise, like when you see something like ordinals were discussed a lot recently, what do you do; do you consume it yourself; do you debate it with your dad?
Samantha de Waal: I usually consume it myself, comment on a few things that I find interesting, or that I want to also have an opinion heard by. Like, if I see someone writing something that I strongly disagree with, I will openly write in the comments that I disagree with it and why I disagree with it.
Peter McCormack: Love it. What about you and your dad; what do you disagree on?
Samantha de Waal: I think we disagree on a few topics, like interests. Interests-wise, I really like anime. My dad absolutely hates it. I think I just like anime because I feel like I can relate a lot to the characters, especially because anime a lot of the time has characters that are kids and have a goal and want to achieve that goal. And I feel like a lot of the time, I can just relate to that. I want to achieve a certain goal, it's always different goals. Like today, I want to have my room finished cleaning. Something as small as that, I can just feel like I want to do that. So, I feel I have the motivation to do that, just like anime characters do.
Peter McCormack: What about music-wise?
Samantha de Waal: Music-wise, I think I take after both of my parents, and my parents have different music tastes. So, my mum has pop, my dad has more rock --
Peter McCormack: Yeah, good man.
Samantha de Waal: -- and then I'm a mix.
Peter McCormack: What rock has your dad got you into?
Samantha de Waal: Well, I really liked Avril…?
Peter McCormack: Avril Lavigne, yeah.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I can see there's a pattern to you, who your kind of heroes are. You like strong women, right?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, okay. Well, we need more of them in Bitcoin.
Samantha de Waal: We do.
Peter McCormack: There's not enough. We've got some great people. Natalie Brunell is amazing. Have you met Natalie?
Samantha de Waal: No.
Peter McCormack: I think you'd get on well with her, I think she's amazing. We have Elizabeth Stark. We have enough, but --
Samantha de Waal: I really find Anita very interesting.
Peter McCormack: Anita's amazing. Have you met Anita?
Samantha de Waal: Well, yeah, I've talked to her.
Peter McCormack: She's amazing. I can't remember when I'm seeing her next. I'm hopefully going to see her at the Bitcoin Conference in Africa. She's been on my podcast a couple of times, she's brilliant. But we definitely need more. We need more kids, we need more women, so perhaps you can help with that as well. What about Bitcoin though; do you and your dad disagree on anything on Bitcoin?
Samantha de Waal: Not that I can think of at the top of my head. But I think some of the accounts that he sometimes talks about or some of the accounts that I talk about, we disagree on just because personally -- or just don't find as interesting. Like, it was this morning, I saw a digital art Bitcoin account on Twitter, and my dad doesn't like digital art so much, but he does find it interesting when I talk about it because it's my passion, I really like doing digital art. I actually drew his Twitter profile picture.
Peter McCormack: Did you?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Okay we'll have a look at that in a minute. And if people want to follow you, where do they follow you on Twitter?
Samantha de Waal: @SamTheBTCKid.
Peter McCormack: Right, okay, we're going to pump that. If they want to see your presentations, are they available?
Samantha de Waal: Yes. On YouTube, if you just search, "Samantha de Waal", you should find all of the ones that I'm on.
Peter McCormack: Right, okay. Well, we'll try and put those in the show notes as well. I think, firstly, you're brilliant. You are so good, and I am a bit worried for my job. I think you should keep doing podcasts. I think you should keep definitely doing events, and I would love to see you at some of the bigger events, and if there's anything we can do to help you, connect you with anyone, you should definitely let us know. I think we should bring your dad in for a few minutes.
Samantha de Waal: Sure.
Peter McCormack: I mean because he's here, we don't need him do we? The support artist! Yeah, so welcome back, Ben. Might as well have a few minutes with you while you're here. So, in prepping for this, it's a weird one, because you don't want to be condescending, but you also at the same time, you are talking to a 12-year-old, you want to also be a bit of fun. That balance is a hard one to try and strike. What's it like as a parent watching her make her own journey in the Bitcoin space and having to deal with people trying to figure this out?
Ben de Waal: Yeah, I think it's actually very similar to a lot of other aspects of being a parent. You watch your kids doing something and always in the back of your head, there's those kind of thoughts, "She could have said it that way, or she could have done this, or she could have done that", but you have to let your kids be themselves. You have to let them grow and learn and be their own people. One thing I never want to do is be this kind of authoritarian father who says, "This is how the world works, this is how you have to be, this is what you have to do". I'd rather say, "I'm introducing you to the world, I'm showing you things, I'm letting you understand, this is the world that we're in. Now, I'll help you make your way, but making your way is still your way to go, it's your things to figure out".
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's interesting because you've obviously taken a different approach to parenting and Bitcoin than me. My kids are aware of it because of what I do as a job and we talk about it sometimes, so they ask questions or we're in the car. But in the back of my mind it's always been a thing like, "Yeah, I'll teach you about it when you're ready". So, with my son, I am doing that now. He wants to buy Bitcoin and we're talking about custody and we will get around to that. But he's 19 and I've waited till then, and Scarlet's 13, she's a year older than Sam.
You obviously went more proactive and it has obviously paid dividends. But the bit I'm interested in, when did that go from you educating Sam to Sam now, like how did it become that she wanted to present or did a presentation? Did you say, "Hey, you should try this", or did she come to you and say, "I want to do this"?
Ben de Waal: I'm not actually entirely sure.
Peter McCormack: Right, okay.
Ben de Waal: I distinctly recall one conversation. It was about six months before Adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador, the second one, so last year. And I was in the car driving, and I mentioned, "Hey, I'm going to this conference called Adopting Bitcoin. And she basically, I don't remember the exact words, but she basically said something like, "Hey, dad, I never adopted Bitcoin, it's just always been there for me". I'm like, "That's an incredible point. How about you actually tell other people that?" And she's like, "Yeah, what do you mean? Like, come to the conference and be on stage?" I'm like, "Yeah, why not?" And she's like, "Okay, yeah, let's do that".
So, it was kind of both of us at the same time just coming up with the idea, but yeah, I'd say I wasn't pushing her to do it, it was just, "Hey, here's an idea, let's run with it and see what happens", and I think she kind of caught the bug from there and was like, "Okay, if she wants to do this, I'll support her doing it".
Peter McCormack: Okay, so that's the genesis of the idea that we went from Blockbuster to streaming; we've gone from fiat to that, but it's an amazing point to make, you never adopted it. I guess that's one of our blind spots. By the way, Sam, if at any point you want to jump in, just say, "I'm going to jump in, I've got a point to make here". But to watch her then go and do it and then do it in Prague, that must be a proud moment.
Samantha de Waal: Incredible. I mean, in El Salvador and Adopting Bitcoin, I went up on stage with her because we weren't sure, you know, is she going to be too nervous? Is she going to have any problems doing this, or whatever? And she totally killed it. And you can actually, if you watch the video on YouTube of the presentation, she's doing all this, and I'm just kind of sitting there on the stage in the background, twiddling my thumbs and like, "Okay, I don't need to be here!" And so, for Prague, of course I didn't need to be on stage or anything with her, she totally killed that on her own. And yeah, I think it really was just a case of, I'm so incredibly proud of her and I let her know, "I think you're doing an amazing job, Sam". And yeah, it's not just, however, from me. I think she can also see the audience reaction and the way other people have come up to her afterwards and told her that she killed it, and so on, because it needs to be from more than just me.
It's also part of what I say is my parenting style. I don't want to be this authoritarian, "I'm in charge, I'm the one who says if you did a good job or a bad job". That's not my role.
Peter McCormack: Sam, do you want me to level with you?
Samantha de Waal: Sure.
Peter McCormack: All right. So, do you remember us chatting before you went on stage in Prague?
Samantha de Waal: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Okay. For people who don't know, I was MC, so Sam came up and I knew you were doing your presentation, I could tell you were a little bit nervous. I thought, all right, I didn't know anything about your presentation, I never saw you on at Adopting Bitcoin. So, I was just like, "Yeah, cool, Sam's going to go and talk for five or ten minutes about some kids' stuff, yeah. This is cool that she's doing it, but whatever". And then, I heard you start speaking and I came around and watched the front and genuine, I'm not just saying this, I was gobsmacked. I get nervous on those stages, right. You commanded that stage, you owned that stage, you spoke with clarity. But you had structurally a very good presentation, and I think a lot of us, a lot of our jaws were like, "Huh?" and we were really shocked and surprised. And this is why I talk about meritocracy.
So, I did you the disservice of discrediting you before you went on, and I kind of have to apologise, because I didn't take you as seriously as I should have. And that's why I'm encouraging people listening to go and check that out, because you've got it by merit, but at the same time, I think you're a really useful conduit to introduce people like my daughter to Bitcoin. I hope you accept my apology.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, it's fine!
Peter McCormack: But yeah, it is an interesting one because we don't talk about kids as much in Bitcoin as perhaps we should, or think about that. And the mistake I've made is that my kids are going to have to adopt Bitcoin, and they shouldn't have had to adopt Bitcoin.
Ben de Waal: Yeah, I think that it is an incredibly important point, but also related to that is something Sam actually said on stage during her presentation, "The kids are the future". They are the people who are going to be running the world when we're old. We're going to be old men sitting in a nursing home, and people of her generation are running the world. Would you rather they are bitcoiners or not bitcoiners?
Peter McCormack: Well, it comes back to that point at the moment, especially in US politics, there's so many of the politicians and people in their late 70s and 80s who are voting on policies that affect people, not even my age, but Sam's age. Sam, let me throw this one back at you. Where are we screwing up the world?
Samantha de Waal: I'd say mainly the people that think that they can control society, like a lot of governments and a lot of banks are screwing up the world. So, it's not just the people, it's the people in the small communities.
Peter McCormack: What do you mean by trying to control the world? I'm going to push you here.
Samantha de Waal: So, I think that a lot of the governments, especially for example in Germany, England and Germany, me and my dad actually talked about this while walking here, in England, everything is basically legal until it's explicitly made illegal. In Germany, it's the other way around, it's everything is illegal until it's explicitly made legal. Like, I asked him, "What about, for example let's say, I don't know, drinking orange juice after eating apples?" So, there is actually a thing that you are allowed to drink juices at any point of given time.
Peter McCormack: What, there's a law that -- shut up, come on!
Ben de Waal: Actually, to explain that a bit better, yeah, so in Germany, yeah, there is basically a law for everything. I don't remember the exact percentage, but some ridiculously large percentage of laws written in the world are written in the German language. It's way more than you'd expect. And the reason for it is just the ridiculous way that German laws are structured. And so, yeah, it really is a case of things are explicitly made to be allowed. And if you haven't explicitly made that somewhere, then it's probably disallowed as a general rule, which, yeah, it's overly complicated, is probably the only way to truly describe it. And yeah, as far as food and drink, essentially there are laws which say, you are allowed to, generally speaking, feed yourself, consume things, but it's just like a side note somewhere. But essentially, if that weren't written, then technically speaking, you would not be allowed to do it, is kind of the point.
Peter McCormack: So Sam, you've essentially I guess, I mean, because we are influenced by our parents, I guess you've got a more libertarian approach to the world because you've been introduced by your dad?
Samantha de Waal: Well, yes, but I also have to say for my mum, it's a little different because she is a German, which means she's also one of the more German style for, "Hey, I'm going to follow the rules because this is the way all the rules are written, and this is the way we do it, so this is the way we do it". But I feel like I kind of come after my dad a bit more to, "Hey, but why do we have to do it this way? Why are we not allowed to do this thing?"
Peter McCormack: I bet mum loves this! I want to have dinner with the de Waals! I want to see it, I want to just throw a few hand grenades out and see where it goes! You must have some great debates?
Samantha de Waal: Sometimes, yeah, but also at home, a lot of the time my brother, who's 9 years old, also tries to discuss with that sometimes, and my brother is more of the person that just agrees with an opinion because it is the opinion of the person. So like, if I say I like the colour orange, next week his favourite colour is orange. If I tell my dad I like orange, he says, "Well, that's cool, that's an interesting fact". If I tell my mum I like the colour orange, my mum's going to be, "Yeah, okay, I guess you like the colour orange", but my dad's going to be like, "Yeah, but why is orange a colour; do you just like it in general or what?" My dad asks more questions and I think I come after my dad in that sense.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I like that though. Is your brother adopting Bitcoin? Oh God, I just used the wrong word.
Samantha de Waal: Very, very, very slowly he's also getting into it. He did get Bitcoin at a young age but he hasn't, he's a little younger in his mental age than his actual age, so we still haven't gotten him a phone, or whatever, so he still needs to learn a little more. He's 9 years old, unfortunately can't read fully yet. He still can read a little though, but I feel like when he can read and stuff, he'll be able to understand it more also from books and not just have it as, "Hey, my sister and dad talk about it".
Peter McCormack: Yeah I wonder how much more he'll pick up from you and how much more from dad, because you had one line, which is through dad; he's got two, he's got sister and dad. And parents can be busy sometimes. I think he might come through you a bit more and you might shape him a bit more. Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, Ben, I'm so glad to do this. Like I say, I've never recommended a show to my daughter. My son listens to some, and this one he will listen to, but it will kind of bypass him, but it's the perfect show for my daughter, and that might spark a bit of interest in her.
Ben de Waal: I certainly hope so, and also I hope that's true of anyone else listening to this, any parents who are watching this. If you've got kids, especially girls around Sam's age or any other kids as well, get them to watch this, get them to think about this, comment on it, have a conversation and just see where it goes.
Peter McCormack: Well that's why I think, I just talked before, I think a diversity of voice in Bitcoin is good, and not this kind of woke culture, diversity for the sake of it, actually diversity for the sake of people identifying with that person to listen to, and this is a great example of diversity of age. I think that will help. We're going to have to try and see if we can go younger now. Can we get a 10-year-old in? Maybe your brother? He might want to set a new record. Okay, just to finish off, Ben, what do you hope for Sam?
Ben de Waal: So that's always a difficult question. I'm always very careful talking about the future with regards to anything at all. And that includes, I don't want to prescribe a life for her. So, I can very broadly say, I hope she has an enjoyable life, I hope she has the best life she can have, I hope she has a lot of fun, I hope she learns a lot of cool things, she has a lot of interests. But specifically around Bitcoin, I hope that if it continues to be her passion, which it looks like it is, that she's able to really help other people and influence other people and be this face, this way of getting people to understand Bitcoin better.
Peter McCormack: What about you Sam; what do you hope?
Samantha de Waal: I hope that for the future, I am able to continue learning about Bitcoin. I hope that people -- I think it's not just me, I think it's a lot of time also other kids, when adults say, "Hey, this is not good", then kids, because they're kids and feel smaller, they're just like, "Okay, I'll stop doing that passion". But with me, I know that I'm going to continue my passion in Bitcoin, and I just hope that no one tries to stop me, because I do feel sometimes a little insecure and scared then, but I hope that I will be able to keep building myself up and keep having this passion.
Peter McCormack: Sam, I don't think anyone's going to be able to stop you. They might put a little bump in the road and you might bounce over it, I don't think anyone's going to stop you. I think you're going to be a force to be reckoned with, and I say that as a huge credit to you, not as some kind of passing, patronising, adult comment. I'm blown away by you. I was in Prague, I am today. You speak eloquently, intelligently, you've got interesting insights, you make people think about things they hadn't thought about. I mean that point on adopting Bitcoin that you never adopted it, that is hugely important. You're a force, I have no worries about you at all.
I thank you for coming on. I apologise for not taking you seriously enough in Prague to begin with, and any of my condescending boomer points, again I'm sorry about that. But look, I wish you the best. The people we like, me and Danny say, anything we can do to help you we will, you get in touch. You want to come on again, you want to talk about anything specific, you let us know. And yeah, I wish you the best, I think you're a superstar.
Samantha de Waal: Yeah, I'm thankful to have been here.
Peter McCormack: All right, all the best.
Samantha de Waal: Thanks.
