WBD667 Audio Transcription

Bitcoin Educating for Progressives with Jason Maier

Release date: Monday 5th June

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Jason Maier. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

Jason Maier is a teacher and the author of ‘A Progressive’s Case for Bitcoin’. In this interview, we discuss the importance of teaching money and Bitcoin in schools, the future of education in the shadow of AI, and the challenges of having a public persona. We also talk about the feedback Jason has received since publishing his book and Bitcoin’s potential to bring people together.

“If the book is successful, then it’s not needed in the future, because we don’t need a progressives case for Bitcoin in a perfect world. People feel comfortable learning and understanding and welcomed into a community without needing this resource. So that’s the goal.”

— Jason Maier

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Jason Maier, how are you, man?

Jason Maier: Very good, very good.

Peter McCormack: Wow, how long has it been; a year?

Danny Knowles: Nearly, I think it was about June time last year, maybe?

Jason Maier: Yeah, almost a year, 11 months.

Peter McCormack: About a year since you emailed me?

Jason Maier: Yeah, that's right.  Yeah, I emailed you in June last year.

Peter McCormack: Wow, happy anniversary!

Jason Maier: Yeah, thank you.

Peter McCormack: What a year it's been for you, mate.  Well done.

Jason Maier: It's been the weirdest year of my life, for sure.

Peter McCormack: A Progressive's Case for Bitcoin; you got your book out.  I mean, I'm sure it has been a weird year.  I want to find out all about it.  Did you enjoy the conference?

Jason Maier: I did, I had a lot of fun.  There were so many people I got to meet in person who I've only met online or through interviews.  So, just being able to be there and feel that energy was awesome and I really enjoyed it, it was great. 

Peter McCormack: Are people recognising you? 

Jason Maier: Yeah, not as many as you, but I think that it was a weird experience for me to have somebody call out every so often, "Hey, Jason", and then want to talk to me and I'm not used to that at all.  So, it was a new experience. 

Peter McCormack: Asked for a photo? 

Jason Maier: Oh, yeah, plenty.  Plenty of photos, plenty of handshakes and smiles and stuff.  So, it was awesome, yeah, just people who know me and have heard of the book and appreciate what I'm doing.  So, it was actually kind of nice.

Peter McCormack: It's a really nice, humbling experience to go through.  I'm so happy for you, selfishly a little bit happy for you, just to see it happen, to see, you know, you drop an email, you write a book, you speak at conferences, it's just amazing.  Okay, where do I even want to start with this?  What's the weirdest thing that's happened to you, or weirdest moment you were like, "What the…?"

Jason Maier: Yeah, I think the weirdest moment, I went to a more local Bitcoin meetup, and it was my first time out in public that it wasn't designed like I was going to speak at this event, but I just wanted to go and meet people.  So, where I'm from, I'm in Connecticut, there's nothing going on, so I drove up to Massachusetts for the day, figured out, "All right, I'm going to go there and just have some drinks and meet people".  And then there's people in the day, kind of pointing at me, and then people want to come up.  And I had a great experience, met a lot of awesome people.  Of course, bitcoiners are awesome in general, and bought me a beer and, "Can I take a photo with you?" and all that. 

So, that was weird at that moment for sure.  It was the first time anything like that ever happened.  Got home, told my wife, "Somebody asked to take a photo with me", and she was like, "Oh, Jesus", she rolled her eyes!  She was like, "What am I going to deal with?"  But yeah, that was the weirdest moment.  It was the first time somebody recognised me out in public and asked to take a photo with me and engaged me about the book and about the project, and all of that. 

Peter McCormack: Are you on sabbatical or are you taking sabbatical? 

Jason Maier: So, yeah, so I'm a high school maths teacher.  My academic year is going to be done in two weeks.  So, I've been teaching; my full-time teaching job ends in a couple of weeks.  I have graduation, final exams, then I'm off.  The school has been very gracious to say I have a one-year sabbatical, promote the book, travel around, do interviews, just educate people about Bitcoin, even if it's sort of an apolitical like, "Here's the basics"; there's a huge demand for that.  So, I'll have a full year to just talk to people about the book, talk to people about Bitcoin and educate people.

Peter McCormack: And that's obviously very exciting.

Jason Maier: It's huge.  I mean, it's an honour to get a sabbatical, it's an honour that that my school recognised, even if they don't fully buy into Bitcoin as a thing right now, they recognise that I'm doing good work and trying to educate people about something that's complicated and hard to learn.

Peter McCormack: So, when you say they don't fully buy into it, is it specific people; is it your reporting line?

Jason Maier: I think my boss and my boss's boss are like, "Hey, it's awesome that you wrote a book, happy to support it, it looks like you're doing good work".  But they're not bitcoiners, right?  They're not supporting me with a sabbatical because they're into Bitcoin.  I tried to explain like, "I'm going down and I'm talking to this guy named Peter McCormack and this is kind of a big deal", and my boss is like, "Who's that, and why is there a pirate flag?"  Yeah, so it's explaining it and just trying to -- a lot of people in my normal life don't necessarily understand the attention that the book has gotten in the Bitcoin space, which is great because it allows me to live a normal life day-to-day.  But it's been an interesting dynamic where now that the book is out, people are starting to come around and say, "Oh, wow, this is actually a thing, and you are getting a lot of attention", and stuff like that.

Peter McCormack: Have you tried to orange-pill them?

Jason Maier: Oh, yeah.  Well, I think that I've offered a couple of different speaking opportunities at the school where I work to say, "Come here to learn about neocolonialism and Bitcoin's response to it".  People came out for that, they wanted to learn.  Next week I'm offering Bitcoin basics, apolitical, just learn about Bitcoin; I've like 30 or 40 people signed up to come to that, that's just all in my school.  So, I've gotten a lot of people just sort of piqued and intrigued, wanting to learn more, viewing things from a different angle. 

I think that a lot of normies out there just don't understand how unfair the current system is and so by being able to explain it through a Bitcoin lens, totally new to them.  And there are a good number of them are like, "Oh wow, I didn't realise that", and then they want to learn more, they want to engage with it. 

Peter McCormack: So, kids as well? 

Jason Maier: Yeah, so my students are all in on asking me about Bitcoin. 

Peter McCormack: Okay! 

Jason Maier: So, I teach 9 through 12. 

Peter McCormack: What age is that? 

Jason Maier: So, it's about 13 to 18, so a good range, formative years.  And about a year ago, they knew I was writing this book and okay, that's kind of exciting and, "Mr Maier, he likes Bitcoin, so if we ask him about Bitcoin, he'll just talk about it.  And then if he talks about it for the whole period, then he's not going to give us homework because we didn't learn the stuff we're supposed to learn.  So, let's just ask him about Bitcoin".  And those conversations were usually like, "How can I get rich, right?"  It's a 15 year old, "How can I get rich with Bitcoin?"  And then slowly, gradually, I've tried to change the narrative like, "This isn't about getting rich, it's about changing the world, it's about making the world a better place".  And it's not about getting out of homework, they're actually asking really good questions. 

I was with a student the other day and he's just had really good questions about monetary policy, and he understands on some level it's set by these people and that seems comfortable, but what if this algorithm -- he's just asking really deep questions about the process.  And I answered all of his questions, tried to be as neutral as possible, I can't really sell Bitcoin to my kids, my students, but tried to just answer the questions as best I could, and he just had this moment, he got quiet, and this is a 16-year-old, 17-year-old kid, and he's like, "If what you're saying is true, this has massive implications for the world".

Peter McCormack: Oh, I love this kid.

Jason Maier: And I was like, "Yes, and what I'm saying is true", and he's like, "And I mean everything", you know?  So, these kids are making that kind of connection; whereas 12 months ago, it was like, "How can I get out of maths homework and how can I just get rich, because that's all I care about?  I just want to invest money, make more dollars, and then not have to work for it", and I just slowly tried to disabuse them of that notion that this is not about making more US dollars, it's about changing what money is, and using a new technology to make the world a better place.  Those conversations have gotten a lot better with colleagues and with students. 

Peter McCormack: So, I can't stop going down the AI rabbit hole at the moment and I've been in the workplace for 25, 30, what is it, 25 years, whatever the number of years is, 25 years-ish.  But we're similar age.

Jason Maier: Yeah, we are.

Peter McCormack: You remember pre-internet era? 

Jason Maier: I do. 

Peter McCormack: So, you know, we've lived through the internet coming, we've lived through Bitcoin coming, there's lots of fads and things that come.  I know that AI is going to have a profound impact on the world.  And so you as a math teacher, teaching kids 13 to 18, I think for the large percentage of that class, by now they've learned everything they're going to use in maths for the rest of their life.  You're now on to the things whereby there may be needs for specialisms, for some form of engineering, whatever. 

Where I'm actually going with this is that I could put up a strong thesis and a strong argument that you teaching them about Bitcoin in a maths class is more important than teaching about the maths they should be learning at this moment.  And the question I keep coming back to the moment, I've had a couple of conversations here, I don't think the world of schooling, I mean I think it's been behind for a long time, setting kids up for future jobs, future workplaces. 

Now more than ever, I'm looking at it and I'm hugely questioning what my daughter's going to do for the next five years in school, and whether the majority of it is going to be a complete waste of time, and actually I should be completely rethinking her education and perhaps sending her -- there are specialist creative schools, coming up with real strong skills that may play a role, more of a role in her life.  I don't know what you're thinking as a teacher.  I mean, are teachers talking about AI?  I'm going down a different rabbit hole here. 

Jason Maier: I'm happy to talk about teaching too.  What I find fascinating is I'm on Bitcoin Twitter and I'm listening to people talk about it and they're talking about AI and ChatGPT, and what are the implications, what are the uses, what are the dangers?  Months later, teachers get wind of it, you know, the people I work with.  And they're thinking about it completely from the wrong direction 100%, where they're just worried about kids cheating.  I was like, "You idiots need to realise that this is your job, right?  This is not about a kid cheating on an essay, this is about you no longer having a job being a teacher.  This is what you need to be thinking about, right?" and try to drill it home.  Get past like, "Oh, this kid cheated on this maths test or this English essay", this is actually about something much bigger.  So, we're talking about it, the conversation's just starting.  I have a lot to say about the idea of what is maths education and what's useful and what's important for kids to learn?  You're saying, all right, by the time you're 15, you've learned all the maths you need.

Peter McCormack: Maybe earlier.

Jason Maier: Maybe earlier, and that's true for some percentage of the population, and maybe even a large part.  But there's still pretty complicated maths that goes into AI, and if you want to make AI, then you need to understand the complicated maths, right? 

Peter McCormack: Oh, of course. 

Jason Maier: And there's pretty interesting and complicated maths in Bitcoin, so if you want to really understand Bitcoin, then you should probably know the maths.  But it's almost a discrepancy where, if you're good at being a maths teacher, it's not about the content, it's about a way of thinking.  It's about being critical, finding patterns, recognising what truth is, recognising how you can explain yourself in a way that is logical, and you can make a persuasive argument.  All of those things are within maths teaching, too, right, and those things don't go away; in fact, they're more important to understand how can I be sceptical of information that I'm getting; how can I display data that I have; how can I make a calculation to confirm something being told to me; how can I do a back of the envelope understanding like, "Oh, this number that somebody's telling me seems way off"? 

Those are all very important skills, and it's not just about the content acquisition, it's the soft skills.  How do you collaborate with somebody on a mathematical project; how do you actually communicate your ideas in an effective way?  That's what I'm doing in my classroom, that's what I'm trying to do, and all my colleagues are doing that, too.  So, it's not just, "Do you know how to take a derivative [or] do you know how to solve this equation?"  That's part of it, and you think of it as building blocks for a way of thinking as opposed to, "I'm just here and I'll never use this again".  Well if you want to be a person who thinks logically and concretely and can solve problems, then you're going to need maths and you need to train your brain to think that way. 

Nobody remembers the maths that they learned in high school, right, very few people, like me and people who do it for a living.  But it's a way of thinking, and I think that's an important way to think about it.

Peter McCormack: Define cheating!

Jason Maier: Well, we went through all of this rigmarole to come up with a new policy.  You're allowed to use ChatGPT if the teacher says you can, and you cite it.  I think any time you're submitting work that was somebody else's and you're not giving them credit, that's cheating.  And we had to rewrite our rules page to include AI with that, right?  So, if you're trying to pass off a certain kind of work as your own, then that's cheating.

Peter McCormack: If my daughter came to me and she said, "Dad, I just got an A in my English essay and I used ChatGPT to write the majority of it", I think I'd be proud, because what I would be thinking is, you've learned a productivity gain that gives you an advantage over everybody else to improve the quality of your work.  And the reason I say that is, I've said on the show a lot of times, we're using AI now.  Did you see the Real Bedford Strategy I put out?

Jason Maier: The strategy?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, the multiple slides for our strategy for next season? 

Jason Maier: No.

Peter McCormack: So, I put it out on Twitter, it's a 25 slide deck.  I used ChatGPT to structure that.  And so that gave me, one, a productivity gain, but also intelligence gain.  And so, I see it slightly differently.  That's just me.

Jason Maier: No, I mean, it's interesting.  I mean, you think people have been using computers and machines to make their life easy for a very long time, right?  There's nothing new about that.  It's just a matter of, well, what's being tested and what skills are you trying to assess?  If it is writing on your own or coming up with a persuasive argument, then there might be a place for using AI to help you with that in the real world or in your job, or whatever.  That's happening, there's no doubt about it.  So, I think the way teachers are thinking about what's cheating and what's productive use and what's more efficient is all in flex, right? 

As a maths teacher, kids have calculators, right?  And there are plenty of times when the questions I'm asking, it doesn't matter if they have a calculator or not, they have to be thoughtful and creative and come up with a way to solve the problem; it doesn't matter if they have that machine in front of them.  Other times, I'm dealing with a younger student and they need to have some number sense and they need to be able to do a computation.  I take the calculator away and say, well, I'm testing a different skill right now.  So, it's just a matter of how do you want to leverage the technology; what are you trying to assess; and, what are the real-world skills that you're building?  Using AI to do your job is going to be part of the future, so it would be a misstep for us to eliminate it completely from education. 

Peter McCormack: And do you think your school's taken quite a progressive approach to accepting AI, considering AI, or does this just happen everywhere? 

Jason Maier: My sense is that our school's approach seems consistent with other peer schools and other places.  Now, I can't speak for all schools, but I think that there needs to be a balance between understanding what you can enforce, what are the goals you're trying to get at, and how can you actually leverage real intelligent use of these tools, and I think that's what we've been trying to highlight, right?  It's not like you can just plug something into ChatGPT and expect to be good no matter what, you need to actually ask good questions or you need to hone what it's giving you, you need to validate the information you're getting, so just thoughtful intelligent use of the tool. 

Jason Maier: Okay, interesting.  And you so you actually think there's a genuine threat to the teaching profession? 

Jason Maier: I think that if teachers are focused on, "My students are going to cheat with this" exclusively and they're not thinking about, "What's my role 15, 20 years from now, or 10 years from now", then there could be a threat.  I think that good teachers are not going to get replaced.  If you're teaching your students how to think critically, how to solve problems that are real-world problems, how to be creative, then there's no danger to your job.  You're going to have a job.  And if that's through the lens of teaching them maths or through the lens of teaching them Spanish or English, you'll have a job.  People are going to want to send their kids to human beings to learn those kinds of skills. 

We all have the internet in our pocket, right?  So, you don't need to teach them these facts anymore.  Like, how many US Supreme Court Justices are there?  Well, I don't need to know that necessarily, right?  I have that in my hand.  Any other fact you can pull.  You need to learn communication skills, critical thinking, problem-solving, and I keep saying it, but that's really what we need.

Peter McCormack: So, do you think there needs to be a rethink of curriculums, the entire structure of schooling? 

Jason Maier: Yes.  Yeah, I think specialist schools make sense in the future.  You have a desire to do something and you're interested in it, there's no reason you need to be sitting for one hour in this classroom and moving one hour to that classroom and then learning different things necessarily.  It's important to have a wide range of basic knowledge and ways to think, but to specialise in something, a vocation or an interest that you have, is absolutely a thing I can see in the near future. 

Peter McCormack: I just broke your pen.

Jason Maier: That's alright. 

Peter McCormack: I feel terrible. 

Jason Maier: I brought two.  I didn't know how many books I had to sign, so I brought two of those orange pens, and I got it free from my work, so it's okay.

Peter McCormack: Okay, I don't feel so bad.  You can keep it.  Would you have Bitcoin in the curriculum, or would you have economics in the curriculum early or money?

Jason Maier: Yeah, I would.

Peter McCormack: You would, yeah.

Jason Maier: I think almost nobody talks about money, and I think almost nobody understands what it is, how it works, so I think that it's apt.  And I'm not talking about a financial literacy course in high school that teaches you how to balance your chequebook or pay your taxes.  We do not teach money in schools, like how does the Fed work; how does the central bank work; how does the Treasury work?  These things are not taught and they're not taught for a reason, we know that.  So, absolutely, I would have Bitcoin, just general discussion of money, what money is, general discussion of legacy financial system within a curriculum.  I've been asked multiple times to provide that at my school, not by my bosses, but people who are like, "Hey, you should actually teach this". 

There's a demand for it, there's a demand to learn more about it because every time I explain something about, "This is how the Fed works [or] this is what's happening at the IMF [or] this is how money gets censored or siphoned away from people in developing nations", people are shocked.  They don't understand that these are real problems in the world.  So, yeah, I think that there should be a place for Bitcoin specifically and then just generally, money and financial systems, within our education system; it's critically important. 

Peter McCormack: I don't know what's involved to do this, but have you considered moving beyond high school education to maybe become s university professor so you could focus on maths, money, Bitcoin, etc?

Jason Maier: Yeah, I mean I originally went to grad school to get my PhD in maths and I was almost done before I decided that I was going to go and teach high school maths.  My high school teaching, high school maths was my original goal.  I did well in university, I was able to get a scholarship to go get a PhD in maths, realised I was not in love with it, right?  So, in order to teach at the university level, you have to finish your PhD and I didn't quite finish mine.  So, I think that the benefit that I have, I happen to work at a really well-resourced school that is obviously open to me trying new things.  So, if I can write a curriculum, if I can push a narrative to say, "This is what's important, and this is what we should be focusing on", then I think I probably have enough leeway to do that within my current institution.  And I'm lucky to say that. 

I think that not just my boss, but my head of school sat down and he and I had a conversation about this book.  I handed him a copy and he was thrilled that it touched on so many interdisciplinary things.  It's not just maths, it's not just computer science, it's not just economics, it touches on everything, and he was excited to get me in front of parents, students, teachers, alums, and wants to help me do that.  So, I think I'm at a very supportive institution right now, so I'm happy. 

Peter McCormack: And you love being a high school teacher, right? 

Jason Maier: I do, and like I said, that was my dream from the very beginning.  I think I decided I wanted to be a high school maths teacher when I was in seventh grade, that was the dream, and I mentioned that people chuckle like, "Oh, it was your childhood dream to be a maths teacher?  What a loser!"  It's like, "No, it's true, it really was". 

Peter McCormack: Fuck those people!

Jason Maier: Well I think that somebody thinks you're joking, but then they're the only one laughing.  Like, "No, I'm being serious, I wanted to be a high school maths teacher forever", and I love it, I do love my job.  I love working with the students in the classroom, I like my colleagues, so I wouldn't want to change that necessarily, but I do think there's a place for Bitcoin conversations within that sort of schematic. 

During my sabbatical, I applied to actually teach a continuing education class about Bitcoin in a town next to mine.  So, I'm going to go up twice a week, drive up to the next town, and teach people who are just adult learners, who want to learn about Bitcoin.  So, there's opportunities for me to just get the message out in other ways too. 

Peter McCormack: Start a meet up where you are, you should definitely do that. 

Jason Maier: I'm considering it.  Obviously the book has been put out, so I've been busy, but there's a handful of people near me who I think would really appreciate it. 

Peter McCormack: It always starts as a handful of people. 

Jason Maier: That's right, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Some guy was telling me, his first one, 2 people turned up, and then he said 5 people turned up, and then it was 10, and now they're at 20.  And I was like, "That's how it starts".  I mean, we've seen those videos of Andreas Antonopoulos at a conference presenting the most incredible high-level Bitcoin content to 7 people!

Jason Maier: Yeah, exactly!

Peter McCormack: That happens.

Jason Maier: Right.  Well, my first Bitcoin meetup, and that's me and my friend, we got together and we would make ourselves a nice mixed drink, and we would put on your podcast, Bitcoin for Beginners, that's how we started our journey, because this guy was like, "We should just keep learning about it".  And so, there's people near me who are into the idea and would probably support a meetup.  So, yeah, and my wife is supportive of that.  She's like, "You need to have a meetup in our town, you know that, right?"  I was like, "Yeah, I know".

Danny Knowles: She just wants you to stop talking to her about it!

Peter McCormack: Get you out of the house!

Jason Maier: Yeah, I mean she and I have had -- probably my best Bitcoin conversations I've ever had have been with my wife.  She's smart and interested and looks at things from a different angle than me, so she's never gotten to the point where she's told me to shut up about it yet, but maybe she does want to get me out of the house and talk to new people! 

Peter McCormack: Has she got to the point where she's starting a conversation about it sometimes?

Jason Maier: Oh yeah, she goes out and starts conversations with people and I think it's easy, or because she has this in, "Oh, my husband wrote this book and this is what it's about", and some people are dismissive to that, or whatever, but then every once in a while she'll get somebody who's interested and then she can answer questions too, "Well, what about this and what about this, I heard that it's bad for the environment?" and she can speak to that and then does a very good job of it. 

Then one day I got this text, "Hey, I'm with so-and-so, we're at the gym, we've been talking for 20 minutes, he's starting to ask me questions that I can't answer.  You need to come over".  So, I left the apartment, went to the gym, met the guy.  He had a lot of great questions and we got to talking about it.  So, she's out there, she's spreading the word.  I mean, she has business cards from my book and hands them to everybody that will take one.  So, she's all over it.

Peter McCormack: Well, this is why Bitcoin continues to grow and be so successful, because we have an army of people happy to recruit one person at a time.

Jason Maier: Yeah, for real.

Peter McCormack: But you're not going to do that.  You're going to recruit tens, hundreds, thousands, maybe many more through your book, through the meetup you're doing, and so it's this kind of organic, I don't want to say a plague, but it's this organic system that continues to grow through all these different projects that people are doing.  I mean, it's wild this year at the conference.  Even though there were less people, you're aware of more projects or things that people are up to that are orange-pilling people.  And the truth is that if you sit down with somebody and they've got questions regarding things that your book covers and you can't convince them, it means that they're not ready to hear them, because I haven't yet heard -- I mean I think there are arguments against Bitcoin, but there aren't good arguments against Bitcoin and certainly aren't net good arguments against Bitcoin. 

Jason Maier: There are concerns, there's things that we need to be cautious of, or things at the protocol level that we need to educate ourselves on always.  But you're right, I said to a colleague once, and I put this anecdote in the book too which is, she was saying, "Oh, you're into Bitcoin, right?" because she saw this little poster above my desk, and a year ago she laughed because I mentioned I was going to work some extra hours over the summer and I was going to buy Bitcoin with it, and again, she laughed at that.  So, a year later, she came to me and said, "Oh, you're into Bitcoin, right?"  And I said, "Yeah", and we got to talking.  I said, "You don't know anybody intelligent who's studied Bitcoin for 100 hours and thinks it's a bad idea, you just don't".  And she said, "Oh, so you're saying that I should buy Bitcoin?  I said, "No, I'm saying you should study Bitcoin for 100 hours.  Just learn, learn about it". 

There are arguments against it, but like you said, there aren't good ones, and there aren't ones that are negative; this is a way to improve the world and help people.  So, yeah, I think the message is just keep learning and educating.  I think that the book is one way to do that.  Having conversations with people is super-important, and just being open and meeting people where they are; that was the motivation behind the book, meet people where they are, help them learn, care about teaching them about Bitcoin, and if they're wrong about Bitcoin, focus on that, don't focus on all of the other things that you care about that you think they're wrong on.  You don't need to convince them of those things before you convince them that Bitcoin is good.

Peter McCormack: Amazing, well let's talk about the book.  Not everyone listening would have heard our previous interview, although I would encourage them to go back and check it out.  It did do very well, but I think because there has been this bubbling movement of progressives into Bitcoin, my argument's always been the same, it's the most important book written for conservatives about Bitcoin.  I stand by that argument, but just give people a bit of a TL;DR, a bit of a reminder of why you decided to write this book, what the spark was. 

Jason Maier: Yeah, so if we go back, I know that this is true because I have a Google Doc where I created it, I said to my buddy, "We should write a book about this because there's nothing in the space that addresses this.  We need to write a book".  So, I started that Google Doc in September 2021.  At the time, I was still head of my maths department, so my work, my fiat job, was just all-consuming, I didn't have time to actually write a book.  So, I spent a long time just sort of thinking and doing bullet points and learning and reading as much as I could.  Quickly became, the buddy of mine, I offered, he said, "Oh yeah, let's write a book together", and then it became clear that I need to write this book by myself because this guy's pretty awesome, but he's just not -- he's going to be a super support for me, and he actually was the first person to edit it for me, but he was not into writing a book with me.  So, I wrote the book. 

The motivation is interesting, right?  It's called A Progressive's Case for Bitcoin.  And it's very clear to me, and maybe, hopefully your audience will hear this, I did not write the book because I was trying to learn about Bitcoin and I was offended as a progressive person.  I was not on a political level like, "Oh my God, this is horrible, something has to be done".  I wrote the book because I'm a teacher and I know that it is impossible to teach somebody a complicated, difficult concept if they're not comfortable.  So, I've been in a maths classroom for my whole career teaching people mathematics.  If they don't want to learn and if they're not comfortable or they don't feel safe or they're afraid of it, they're not going to learn from you, you cannot do it. 

So, when I looked at the resources that were out there and saying, "All right, well there seems to be a lot of name-calling, a lot of assumptions about people on the left, a lot of rude comments and assumptions going out there.  People will not learn if that's the environment they're walking into.  They just are going to dismiss it, refuse to", and my instinct is always to help teach people, educate people, help them learn, and I realised it was not possible in the environment that we had at the time.  At that time, when I created a Google Doc, Troy Cross had not been on your show, Margot Paez had not been on your show, Alex Gladstein's first book, Check Your Financial Privilege, had not come out.  It was as if I was sort of swimming in this void alone, or it seemed I was alone.  And it was only sort of during the process of writing the book that I got to meet those people. 

All of a sudden, I remember being on the treadmill, and all of a sudden there's Margo Paez, and I was like, "Holy shit, there's somebody else!"  So, through the course of writing the book, I got to meet people, there is a community, it is growing, it is important to have different voices.  But when I started that Google Doc to write a book, which I never thought I'd actually finish, none of that existed in my mind, that world wasn't there, so I was trying to fill a void and I think there is still a void to be filled, and that was the environment of starting the book was like, "Hey, there's nothing out there like this and I need to do what I can.  What skills do I have to bring to the table to help?"  So, that was the idea behind the book.

Peter McCormack: Well, we recognised it at the time.  Alex is great.  We're huge fans of Alex Gladstein, I love the guy. 

Jason Maier: Same.

Peter McCormack: I think he's a great person.  We've had Anita Posch on the show, but what was happening is, when we would have some like Anita on the show, you would see the YouTube comments and it would be very critical of the left, very, very critical of the left, a lot of people having a go at her.  And then people would be writing and accusing me of being a woke, lefty liberal, whatever, which I'm clearly not to anyone with an intelligent brain.  But I'd even reply to them saying, "Okay, let's go through our shows".  Libertarian, libertarian from the right, libertarian from the right, maybe centrist, oh one from the left.  It would be one in twenty interviews would perhaps be someone from the left.  And so we recognised that if we didn't help and support a push from the left, even though by the way, let's just put it out there, Bitcoin is politically neutral.

Jason Maier: Correct.

Peter McCormack: It's a politically neutral tool, but you have to meet people where they are to help them explain things, and I think by doing that you bring people together.  But anyway, we recognised that, so me and Danny just made this conscious decision.  We're going to try and support and bring - we put out there publicly, "Anyone from the left wants to come on the show, let us know, we'll fly you in".  We did a whole bunch of shows. 

Then obviously, we heard from you as well, and I can't remember the order of things, but we knew this was a really important problem to solve because it was self-defeating for people who are conservative to almost only see the conservative arguments for Bitcoin.  I think it was you who said to me, "Elizabeth Warren won't be convinced by a Texas Republican why Bitcoin is good.  But she might be convinced by a Jason Maier, or her staffers might be".  So, we knew it was important thing for us to become part of.  And we were so fortunate that Alex has been doing a great job, you decided to write a book, Troy decided to start becoming public, Margot came, and everybody else.  I think it was just this thing bubbling up around us, but I think it's been great, and I think it's working. 

Jason Maier: I find two types of people who don't agree with me politically.  There are people who do not agree with me politically; they say, "I'm right, I'm libertarian, but what I think you're doing is great for the space"; and then there's the people who are just like --

Peter McCormack: "Go fuck yourself"! 

Jason Maier: Right.  Well, I mean I went on your show, Peter, if you remember I didn't have a Twitter account before I went on your show. 

Peter McCormack: Well, you did, didn't you have like 200 followers, or something?

Jason Maier: No, I showed up the morning of that first interview, I had 30 followers; that's what I had!  So, one of the first tweets I ever got after appearing on your show was, "You look you got hit in the face with a sock full of shit".  That was my introduction!

Peter McCormack: Welcome to Twitter!

Jason Maier: Yeah, exactly, right?  So, you have people that, and it's really what your motivation is.  Do you want money for everybody that will be a global force on a global stage to help people and to change the monetary system; or, do you want to progress to advance your conservative ideology and make it so all liberals are poor and can't participate in the new monetary system?  And there's people out there who just want to squash anything that is --

Peter McCormack: Can I add to that? 

Jason Maier: Yeah. 

Peter McCormack: I don't think they just want to make liberals poor.  I think what they're doing is, if they do, they're actually also making conservatives poor; because if they're holding back Bitcoin, they're holding back everyone, and that's the key point.  You need to understand this, "Money for everyone".  I couldn't word it as eloquently as you, but this is this is money for everyone and you therefore have to put that before ideology.

Jason Maier: And it's just an example of just one first-order thinking, "If only the people that agree with me are into Bitcoin, then I'll be rich and powerful and then everyone I disagree with, they're not realising that they're just holding back adoption to something that actually is useful and is going to grow one way or the other".  So, do you want to, again, do you want to spend time convincing somebody that they're wrong about the climate or that they're wrong about Bitcoin?  Because you can teach them that they're wrong about Bitcoin and get them into the tent and explain things to them without having to call them names and say, "Well, you're a climate hysteric and you're an idiot and you don't understand anything".  You don't need to do that. 

There's a perfectly reasonable argument.  If you care about the environment to support Bitcoin, and it's laid out in the book, many other people are making that argument too.  You don't need to call names in order to prove your point.  What do you care more about?  Do you care more about Bitcoin, or the fact that some people don't agree with you about the environment or something; what do you care more about?"

Peter McCormack: How many Twitter followers have you got now?

Jason Maier: 5,000-something.

Danny Knowles: You've got 5,500, I just checked.

Peter McCormack: And after that interview, did you go read the YouTube comments?

Jason Maier: I didn't. 

Peter McCormack: Good, do not read the comments.

Jason Maier: In fact, I don't necessarily want to read the YouTube comments!

Peter McCormack: Do you not read the comments?

Jason Maier: No, I don't read the comments.  But people have sent them -- so, my students have logged in and watched it.  I was like, "Guys, just so you know, the YouTube comments, don't read them", and of course, they read them, and they're like, "No actually, Mr Maier, these are pretty good comments, people are supportive of you.  So, I haven't read the comments.  I think it's interesting, for the first time recently I had to sit down with my eight-year-old son and explain, "Sometimes people on the internet say bad things about dad.  And, I don't want you to be upset, I don't want you to think that any of this is real", and you know, just trying to set the stage for him.

Peter McCormack: He's going to Google you.

Jason Maier: He's going to, and it's funny because he's not so hung up on people saying I'm an idiot or a statist, or whatever, he doesn't know what that means.  But when people mispronounce our last name, he thinks it's this huge thing!

Peter McCormack: Oh, I do it because I say "Myer" and you say "Mayer".

Jason Maier: Which is fine, but he's really upset.  He's eight years old, whatever.  But it was kind of an interesting moment where I had to sit him down and say, "Look, sometimes people are going to say I look I got hit in the face with a sack of shit and you need to be okay with that"!

Peter McCormack: You've been through all this, haven't you?

Connor McCormack: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Do you want to come and explain?

Connor McCormack: Not really!

Peter McCormack: You're too tired?  Yeah, Connor had to go through it all, googling me and finding articles or finding comments, and Scarlett's the same.

Jason Maier: It's interesting because I'm not famous.  I had actually a pretty insightful student of mine tell me, "You don't want to be famous".  You want to be famous in your field, in your specific thing.  You want to still be able to go to Starbucks, or whatever, but you want to be well-known.  And so the fact that some people recognise me, or that there's some attention, or that I'm doing an interview like, "Kids, just be quiet, I'm going upstairs to interview about Bitcoin", it's kind of a big deal for him, right?  So, I'm just trying to set expectations about what it's like to have a somewhat of a public persona about something that. 

Peter McCormack: It's a very weird thing to go through.  It's hard to prepare for in a number of ways: learning to deal with negativity, I have to deal with a lot of that, it's not great; learning to deal with saying stupid things and then permanently living on the internet and people bringing them up and screenshotting, and however many times you say, "Yeah, I was wrong there, I walk that back", it still lives with you, that's something to live with; and then the latest trend is in-person attacks, I had it this week. 

Jason Maier: Oh is that right? 

Peter McCormack: Pretty much had a guy try and start a fight with me in a bar. 

Jason Maier: Wow! 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it was awful.  And it's rare for the online trolling to go into the real world, it's happened twice, and I expect that can grow and, yeah, there's a lot of things that to deal with.  And I think that's why people who have had fame, they say to people, "You don't really want this".  I mean, I'm just a shitty little Bitcoin podcast, I've got no idea what it's for people with real notoriety, what it's like to live with, whether you're a pop star, a footballer, you're dealing with constant shit.  All I get mainly is like, "You're thick [or] you're fat", I just get that.  But we know black footballers in the Premier League get a constant barrage of racism online.

Jason Maier: Exactly, yeah.

Peter McCormack: And I have no idea what it's to live with, but it makes your world smaller.

Jason Maier: Yeah.  Well, I'll say you've been a great model in terms of just being online and admitting if you've made a mistake or that you don't know something or that you're learning; I think that's a great model.  I found, and again, I don't get the same attention that you do, so it's not a comparison --

Peter McCormack: It's coming!

Jason Maier: -- but I get people who are shitty to me online and I just realise if I ignore them, then they run out of steam.  Even the most persistent people who just every tweet that I send, are just going to write something shitty, but that lasts for a day-and-a-half, two days, and then they run out of steam and they go onto something else.  I don't give them any energy and I don't realise -- they don't know what they're talking about.  And people who want to engage with me in good faith, I'm happy to have that conversation. 

It's probably the most common mistake I've made on Twitter is assuming that somebody's engaging with me in good faith, when actually they're trying to be shitty and I didn't realise it at first!  You learn that mistake, but I mean you just sort of ignore those people.  And I've never had an experience where somebody's brought that into the real world.  Everybody's been kind and polite, at least on the surface, towards me, so I can't imagine. 

Peter McCormack: I think you're a really great advert for somebody who wants to do something in Bitcoin, and I think it's a really good advert, these people who are really shitty online who are yelling.  I think always a really good reply from maybe a dev is when somebody's really criticising Bitcoin, and they reply and say, "Well, go and build something, go and code Bitcoin, go and change it, go and create the world you want".  But yeah, one of these things about Bitcoin is, once you're in…

So, you're going to do your sabbatical, and I'm going to imagine, I don't expect you'll -- you might tell me I'm wrong, I could be completely wrong, it's wrong of me to say this, but I don't imagine you're now going to teach high school for as many years as you maybe would have without the book.  There may come a time where actually your role changes, something changes, because it's really alluring to be part of this.  You're now at the forefront of one of the most important technologies of our time.  If we talked about post-industrial revolution, the digital age, it's probably internet, Bitcoin, and AI, and probably the three. 

You're at the forefront of the change of money.  And then within your field, the bit you're covering, you're at the forefront because you've written the book.  You've essentially written the Bitcoin Standard of your cohort, which is explaining it to your cohort.  It's a gift and an honour for you to have that, and so you're going to want to do it more and this is going to grow and you're going to play a very important role.  I can't even remember where I started with that bit. 

Jason Maier: No, I mean we're talking about fame and growing. 

Peter McCormack: Oh yeah, so that will grow. 

Jason Maier: And I think, just to be clear, I don't have any specific intention of stopping my teaching career, but I'm also fully ready to take the next 15 months and put myself in the way of opportunity and to talk to as many people as I possibly can about the book, behind the ideas, behind the book, behind Bitcoin itself, and just try to educate people because that's my skill set.  I know some coding but not enough to contribute in that way.  I can teach people things; I've made a career out of teaching hard, difficult, scary concepts to people.  And so, that was my intention and that's how I hope to contribute.

Peter McCormack: Sorry, I remember I was going with that.  I was saying you're a great advert for somebody who is maybe on the edge of this thing and they think, "I want to do something".  We get emails all the time, "We will work for you for free, can I intern for you?  Can we translate the show?"  There's people who want to do stuff, and people are always asking how they can contribute.  I mean, you're just a great advert.  You recognise there's a missing piece of the education; you said, "I'm going to write the book"; you dropped us an email; you came on the show, people became aware of you; you sold out your Kickstarter. 

Jason Maier: That's right, yeah.  I double-funded the Kickstarter. 

Peter McCormack: What was the original target? 

Jason Maier: So, I wanted to get $7,000.  I thought that I could probably get it typeset and edited for that much, right? 

Peter McCormack: And you got $15,000? 

Jason Maier: Yeah, I got close to $15,000.  And that happened, I mean again, a huge support from the community that I don't even think I realised the hunger for the book that was out there.  There's people coming out of the woodwork constantly since then saying like, "This is the book that I've always wanted, this is the book that I want to hand to my relatives".  There's a lot of people out there who don't want to hand the Bitcoin Standard to their relatives because there's things in that book that are off-putting, and then there's things that they're going to look up, "Oh, who wrote this?" and they're going to google some videos and, "Oh, I don't want to learn from this guy".

Peter McCormack: "This is not my guy". 

Jason Maier: I know, "Not my guy", and that's fine.  I'm not going to bash anybody for what they believe or what they're advocating for, but if your goal is to teach people about Bitcoin, then you've got to do it in a way that meets them where they are.  So again, you can't convince them that they're wrong about seed oils and the environment before you convince them about Bitcoin, what's your priority?  If it's Bitcoin, then you got to give them a resource that they can relate with and feel good about.

Peter McCormack: Well, so you're this great advert, anyone listening thinks, "Yeah, I'm going to do something", Jason did it! 

Jason Maier: I did it!  And I'll repeat for the record, I wrote you an email the day I stepped down my term as Department Chair, terminated five years, now I'm no longer the boss of that department, I have more time, I'm going to write my book.  I think that morning I dropped you an email, you and two other people, you're the only one who got back to me.  That email didn't ask you to help the book, it didn't ask you to go on the show.  I just wanted to interview you so I get a quote for the book, that's all I wanted.  And obviously since then, you've been a huge support for the project and of me.  It's been a huge deal and thank you. 

But that was the moment where I said, "Why not?  This guy's got an email address, I'll just drop a mail, 'This is what I'm doing and this is what I'm trying to do'".  And it obviously it spoke to you in a way that resonated.

Peter McCormack: You do understand this is a symbiotic relationship though?

Jason Maier: Well, I know. 

Peter McCormack: It isn't just charitable, I wasn't just like, "Oh, what a nice guy, I want to help him".  I recognised the gap, you filled it, I was like, "Well, we should get you on the show because that's a topic".  We monetise these shows. 

Jason Maier: I know, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: So, we monetise these shows; you come on, we sell ads on them, I'm fully transparent about that.  And I also knew that if we did this, you and I would have a very strong relationship from the start.  If you deliver on the book, then you're going to be on this show for years to come.  I wanted to support you, but I also recognised it.

Jason Maier: And it means a lot, I'll tell you, because the two other people that ignored me, they're not as big as you.  It was like, "Oh well, I'll never hear back from Peter, but maybe I'll hear back from this other person"  They just ghosted me or ignored me, and they have every right to, nobody's ever heard of me.  But you didn't, and I think you're right, it's symbiotic, it's not by any measure equal.  The book exists because you saw a need for it.

Peter McCormack: No, the book exists because you wrote it.

Jason Maier: The book exists because I wrote it and people know about the book because of you.

Peter McCormack: But they would have found out anyway.  This would have happened anyway, maybe a different time, a different level, but it did start with that email.  Danny and my relationship started with an email.  My relationship with other people started with -- I emailed Jameson Lopp and said, "Can I interview you?" like third one in, he did it.  Or even before that, I said to Rich Roll, "Can you teach me how to make a podcast?"  All these things just start with somebody putting one foot forward and saying, "Can you help me?"

Jason Maier: Right, and it really was that moment where I said, "All right, if there's a book out there that you'd to read and it doesn't exist, then you need to write it".  And I've never written a book before.  I said, "Well, all right, I'll try".  I've gotten feedback, before the book, about my writing in two categories that it was positive feedback.  One is that I write very efficient and effective work emails.  I give details in the way that needs to happen that's productive, and so I get compliments about my work emails sometimes.  The only other time anybody told me I had any decent skill at writing is when my wife and I, before we were married were going out, and we had a long-distance thing and I would write her emails, and some of those were amorous and I would describe things and she said, "You're really good at this".  So, that was the actual --

Peter McCormack: You big romantic! 

Jason Maier: So, I thought I'll try, you know what I mean?  I know how to explain things, or I think I do; I care about this quite a lot; hopefully I can speak to people.  But the idea to write the book and then to reach out to you, I mean again, it's just if you have an idea for something, go out and do it.  My life has totally changed since I made that decision and it's been a wild ride and I just feel it's been a net positive for Bitcoin and a net positive for me, for sure.

Peter McCormack: And anyone listening, if they've got that idea, they can email us.  I mean, the emails in the show, we say email us.  We don't care if you've got 30 followers on Twitter or 300,000 followers on Twitter. 

Jason Maier: I'm proof! 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we want Bitcoin to be successful.  Yes, it's great to talk to Michael Saylor and hopefully Jack Dorsey one day, and get all those downloads; but at the same time, the strength of this show is a diverse audience and it's important to have new people coming in with new ideas.  The libertarian Bitcoin group is a smaller part of Bitcoin.  I mean, it's probably net more people but a smaller part.  Bitcoin will be successful because it will meet people where they're at, and anyone listening, they've got an idea, they can email me and Danny and we read every email, we reply to every email, we want to find the next Jason Maier, we want to talk to the next Troy Cross, because you people are so interesting, you're different, you've got a new conversation.  So, yeah, I'm so glad you wrote me that email.

Jason Maier: Me too!

Peter McCormack: Not to be a dick, but I'm really proud that you delivered it.  I was honoured when you asked me to write the forward, it's not my wheelhouse.

Jason Maier: I think the forward is great, it's the highlight of the book, and people should buy it just to read its forward.

Peter McCormack: Shut up!

Jason Maier: No, it's true.

Peter McCormack: Did I tell you I used ChatGPT for that as well?

Jason Maier: Did you?! 

Peter McCormack: Yeah!  So, I had all my arguments and I had a writer's block and I kept delaying.  Let's be honest, I kept delaying.  Jason asked me and I was months late on a forward of a few hundred words.

Danny Knowles: It would have been out last year otherwise!

Jason Maier: Yeah, I know!  I mean, at one point you said, "Set a deadline and every day I'm late, I'll send you 0.1 Bitcoin".  I was like, "I'll have more, I'll double my Bitcoin stack if he does this!"  I mean, in all honesty, the forward you wrote is great and it really sets up the argument for the book and the need for the book very well, because there's people still out there who don't understand, why does the book exist?  I think that there's a lot of people in the Bitcoin narrative and culture and space right now who are living with this privilege of being in that dominant culture of saying, "Well, I'm libertarian, I'm conservative, I think Bitcoin does this, this is how I feel about the government", and totally willing to talk about all of the politics and the political ramifications of Bitcoin when it suits them.  And then as soon as I drop this book, it's like, "Well, how dare you make Bitcoin political?"  It's like, "Wake up, this has been". 

I'm perfectly on board with saying Bitcoin itself is a political technology and it transcends politics in a way that it has been defined recently, I make the argument in the book.  But if you want to reach people, you need to actually make that connection first and make them feel comfortable so you can get to that point where it transcends, because otherwise you're only transcending people who agree with you already.  So, I get this criticism all the time, "Why are you making Bitcoin political?  "Well, the culture of around Bitcoin is already political and if you don't see that, then that's just because you're in it in the same culture already, and if you actually believe in Bitcoin and you understand it, this is not a threat.  There's nothing I can do to make Bitcoin worse or break it.

Peter McCormack: But just don't judge it by the cover, the old cliché.  If you've got a criticism of the book, go and read the content and get in touch with Jason and say, "I disagree with you here" and come at the arguments, but not the scope of the book.

Jason Maier: And I don't I don't block people, so if you disagree with me and you don't threaten me, then I'm not going to block you. 

Peter McCormack: But blocking is a great strategy for growing your awareness and sales.

Jason Maier: Well, I'll say there's been a number of people who I think are very well-intentioned and say, "Well, I'm just going to bite my tongue, I'll read the book.  I don't agree with you politically, but I'll read it".  Do you know how many books I've read about Bitcoin where I've had to bite my tongue or swallow things I disagree with, or read through chapters all about shit that isn't really about Bitcoin, but you're going to try to make it sound like it's about Bitcoin; you know how many books I've sat through and read and listened to?  You can do it too.  If you care about Bitcoin, you'll make it through the book, I promise you!

Peter McCormack: I've sat at dinner with you and watched you bite your lip.

Jason Maier: That dinner is infamous.  I've told my wife and my friends about what happened and I've only told them a third.  I don't know if you want to name names; I saw him at the conference and we gave a hug.

Peter McCormack: He's a great guy.

Danny Knowles: You can only repeat about a third of anything Junseth says! 

Peter McCormack: Junseth doesn't mind! 

Jason Maier: I told him we were going to be on the show and again he's like, "Well, make sure you talk about this".  And it's just a cheeky way of --

Peter McCormack: He's a provocateur. 

Jason Maier: He's a provocateur and I'll tell you, it's not unfamiliar to me.  I am in a classroom day in and day out with 16-year-old boys who think that they're the most clever person in the world because they found a way to say something that's insulting or offensive, and you can't really call them on it because they did it in this really clever way, and I got to say something really offensive to you just now.  I get that all the time, right?  I get that that's a 16-year-old boy's brain and that's exactly what some people in this space do.  They're like, "Oh, if I find a way to talk about this issue because you're a liberal and you're progressive in a way that you can't exactly call me out on it because I'm not quite being offensive, then I'm the most clever person in the room right now".  That's not new to me.  So that's what happened at that dinner, and that's what happened a couple of days ago at the conference too. 

Peter McCormack: That would actually be a fascinating show to make, with Jason and Junseth together. 

Danny Knowles: The problem is, Junseth knows he's just trolling a lot of the time, he doesn't believe everything he says, he's just trying to get a reaction. 

Jason Maier: Right, exactly.  And again, that's exactly to the point where I have students in my classroom who don't -- and I'm not trying to compare Junseth to a teenager.  He's a very smart and capable person who knows a lot about Bitcoin and cares a lot about it.  But I get that a lot already, right?  I already get that, like, "Oh, I know that the school doesn't allow me to criticise this kind of thing, so I'm going to do it in a clever way", and it's like, "All right, fine, good for you.  You won that".

Peter McCormack: Junseth does have very solid, intellectual, strong arguments.  I mean, I could think of a number of people I'd love to pair you up with.  I actually think you and American HODL would be a great interview. 

Jason Maier: I would like that, too. 

Peter McCormack: I think because he's, to me, one of the smartest, well you said this first, one of the smartest bitcoiners out there.  Unfortunately, he created this caricature at first which masked that.  But I'd love to see you sit and do well with Saifedean.  I'd be fascinated to watch it.  I just think there's so many different people I could pair you up with now.  So, what happened at the conference? 

Jason Maier: Oh, I mean, we just saw each other. 

Peter McCormack: No, you said another thing at the conference, a couple of days ago.

Jason Maier: Oh, with Junseth?

Peter McCormack: Oh, it was just Junseth? 

Jason Maier: Yeah, just Junseth, right, and he was just being himself and I was being myself and I'm not looking to have conflict and he was trying to egg me on a little bit like, "Oh, make sure when you go on Peter's show, you mention this".  And I was like, "Oh, funny, I'm not going to do that".

Peter McCormack: Did you speak at the conference?

Jason Maier: I spoke on the news desk.  So, I was up in between shows, but I wasn't on the stage.  Maybe next year.

Peter McCormack: Okay, so you released the book, went number one in digital currencies. 

Jason Maier: I did, yes. 

Peter McCormack: Broadly, how did it do, as well? 

Jason Maier: I think it's hard for me to say, right?  The book is published by Bitcoin Magazine, I mean, they did a great job with it, and I get quarterly reports.  So, every quarter I'll get to know how many books sold and I'll get my cheque for the books.  I think it's doing very well in the sense that David Bailey the other day went, "Oh, you're selling more books than Gladstein.  You know that, right?"  I was like, "I didn't know that, and you don't need to make it a big deal".  That's probably not true anymore, but it's doing well enough. 

I think that it's gotten a lot of traction, at least on my scale, it's gotten traction on Twitter.  People are reading the book, saying nice things about it.  So certainly, I think the publisher is happy because they're going to make their money back, no problem, and I'm happy because the book is in a lot of people's hands. 

Peter McCormack: And do you know if it's got in the hands of any politicians who've actually read it? 

Jason Maier: Not that I know of.  So, I do have an event in Washington DC next month, where I'm going to go to Capitol Hill with the Satoshi Action Fund and I'm going to actually deliver books to House of Representatives, person-to-person, just me handing the book to them, or maybe their staff, depending on the person.  The book is also going to get mailed to every Democratic Senator in the US Senate, that was part of the Kickstarter project.  So, the book will get to politicians.  I think that it's a very good book to let them know what's on the horizon.  I don't think that these Democratic politicians understand that this is going to be the next thing, you're not just going to be able to bash Bitcoin to get votes, you actually have to understand it and some of your voters are going to like it.  They don't know that yet. 

Peter McCormack: What about their staffers, because what I'm starting to understand now is they're the influential people; do you know them all; are you getting copies to them?

Jason Maier: I think that the through the Satoshi Action Fund, they are in very close connection with staffers and they kind of know the deal.  I'm not a political operative in any way, so I'm going to try to leverage the connections I have to get the book into people's hands.  For sure, getting this book into a hand of a staffer is almost more important than the actual politician, right, cause that's the person who's making decisions, the filter to the politician.  And so, it's a long game.  Try to orange-pill the voters, try to orange-pill the staffers, try to get the politicians making good decisions, try to get the politicians understanding what the hell they're talking about, all of that takes time. 

Peter McCormack: I mean big shout out to Dennis Porter, he's actually doing a great job.  I think he's found his niche.  He's good at it.  It's been interesting watching him find his niche, I think he's found it and he's had a great impact.  Again, big shout out to Dennis for that.  Is there anything we can do to help; can we donate books?

Jason Maier: Yeah, so there's actually a Geyser Fund for that particular project, right?  It's geyserfund/progressive, something like that. 

Peter McCormack: We'll put it in the show notes. 

Jason Maier: Yeah, put it in the show notes. 

Peter McCormack: Is there a target raise? 

Jason Maier: So, the target is to get as many copies as possible purchased for members of the House.  So, I think there's probably 2 million sats that have been donated so far, but that trip is at the end of June.  So, I'm flying down to Washington, DC, it's the day after my son's birthday, going to fly that morning, just be there to just hopefully orange-pill some politicians and hand the book out.  Any donations given will go directly to buying a book for a politician.  So, that's one thing that people can do to help. 

Peter McCormack: Well, we'll make a donation.  What's 2 million sats?

Jason Maier: It's not a lot.  It's not enough.

Danny Knowles: It's about $600.

Jason Maier: Yeah.  I mean, it's a nice start, but if we want to get books into more people's hands then all the support... 

Peter McCormack: Well, we'll give some more.  I was definitely one day late on the thing, so I owe you 0.1 Bitcoin.  We'll put 10 million sats in there!  We'll do it.  Remind me at the end of the show, we'll make a donation.  Anyone listening, make a donation.  This suits everyone, this is good for everyone.  Okay, feedback.  Good, bad, ugly?  And any negative feedback where you were like, "Oh, actually that's a good point"?

Jason Maier: It's a good question.

Peter McCormack: "No, it was perfect"!

Jason Maier: So, on Twitter, it's funny, I've proceeded to talk about the book and the ideas behind the book quite a lot.  I'm just trying to, again, and I really mean it, the Twitter account exists because the book exists.  I wouldn't be on social media otherwise.  And so, I don't think I've ever tweeted anything that wasn't specifically about Bitcoin.  But people have been, I mean honestly, in general, even before the book came out, I was maybe expecting much more vitriol and hatred pointed at me.  And to my surprise, it's been nine to one.  Like I think 90% of people are supportive or respectful and only 10% are not. 

Since the book has come out, there has not been a person to reach out to me who's disagreed with something in the book, or maybe just people haven't read it, or critics haven't read it who are critical of my ideas.  But nobody's reached out, I mean literally one person reached out and was like, "Hey, just wanted to let you know, on page whatever, there's a little typo".  I was like, "Great, I'll fix that".  But it was literally no arguments to say, "Hey, what you said here is wrong [or] I disagree with you".  And again, if you're into Bitcoin, even if you're not a progressive, you can get through the book.  It's not going to ruin you. 

I've read a lot of books that I don't agree with politically to learn more about Bitcoin.  If you have somebody in your life that you care about who considers themselves a liberal or a progressive and you want them to be orange-pilled, it's good for you to read the book.  Talk to them in a way that resonates with them.  And if you don't have anybody in your life that you want to orange-pill that's liberal or progressive, you need more friends, that's it!  Go meet people. 

So, the feedback has been really positive and people are saying things that speak to the purpose behind the book, which is to orange-pill people that they love and care about.  So you say, "This book is great because it's the first book that I feel comfortable handing to people", or, "You explain things very clearly and you make it accessible".  Those are things that speak to me because that's exactly why I wrote the book, and that's been great. 

In real life, people have been very supportive, my colleagues and people that I know in real life.  There's been a large contingent who are just interested like, "I didn't know this about Bitcoin, teach me more".  And then there's a contingent of people in my real world that are smugly dismissive.  They just look at me as if they know everything and just like, "Oh, well, you're wasting your time".

Peter McCormack: Okay, you get used to that.

Jason Maier: I've been realising that those people are going to have to learn about Bitcoin eventually and there's going to be a moment where they realise, "Oh, shit, I had Jason in my life and I could've asked him some questions in an intellectually honest way, instead of being smug and dismissive", and they're going to come back to me possibly, if I'm still around, and it's going to be a real test to see if I can respond with love and care because I want to. 

Peter McCormack: You will. 

Jason Maier: I will. 

Peter McCormack: You know you're a loving, caring guy, come on. 

Jason Maier: I try to be. 

Peter McCormack: You are.  Have you got examples of people you've fully shifted?  They were dismissive, they read it and went, "I get it now"?

Jason Maier: Yeah, I've gotten a lot of people who have been open to the idea and then read the book and been like, "All right, well, I get it now.  This is bigger than what I thought.  This isn't just an investment to make more dollars.  I get the social impact, I get the reason why money is broken and I want to learn more".  I've gotten people who are maybe not against Bitcoin yet and have totally changed their mind, but a large number of people who just didn't know the first thing about Bitcoin and who just thought that it was this magic internet money and it was fake and it was just copy and paste and it's not worth anything.  And I've just been able to reach a large number of those people by explaining both Bitcoin and the legacy financial system. 

It's a theme throughout the book, right?  You can't learn about Bitcoin without learning about the legacy financial system.  And when you do that, you get a lot of people who start realising, "Oh, this is why I feel things are broken [or] things are unfair [or] that the world is set up to enrich certain people and not others".  It's a completely different lens than what the politicians give you and what the media gives you.  It's just a new lens to look at, and people have been really receptive to that.  They already feel that the system's broken, but they don't have a vocabulary for it yet, and that's been really great to see them gain that conviction and that vocabulary to talk about the problem.

Peter McCormack: And what about yourself?  Have you found you've changed in any way, maybe become also, the other way, a bit more receptive to conservatives, a bit more tolerant, a bit more --  I'm not sure that would be the correct question, but do you see where I'm going?

Jason Maier: Yeah.  A lot of people ask me that, right, "Well, you started out progressive and now you learned about Bitcoin and you're not progressive anymore, right?"  "Well, no".

Peter McCormack: No, I don't mean that. 

Jason Maier: No, no, I know. 

Peter McCormack: But sometimes --

Jason Maier: Other people do mean that.

Peter McCormack: No, I think what it is, is for example, I definitely wasn't a conservative child, even though my dad was, right?  I think it's hard to be a conservative child because you see the world with empathy, joy and happiness and you want fairness and then you learn how the world works and delivering fairness isn't exactly how you think it should be.  But I would say there's definitely conservative ideas I've become more empathetic to through coming into Bitcoin, things I hadn't thought about before.  A perfectly good one is the understanding of the welfare state, its role and what good it can deliver and also, what negatives it can cause.  That's just an example. 

Jason Maier: So, I mean to the extent my views have changed, I think that I have become probably a little bit more sceptical of politics and the political establishment than I was when I started the journey.  I think it's fair to say when I started, it was like, "All right, well there's politicians that I agree with and politicians I don't agree with, and if we get the right person in charge, then good things will happen".  And I think through my journey of Bitcoin, I've realised I'm less faithful to that idea.  I think that the incentives don't match up for either side of the political aisle to do the right thing; I think that there's people who are very good at talking to both sides and telling them what they want to hear; and I think that I'm probably more open to hearing conservative arguments about a variety of issues and thinking about them in a more nuanced way than I was before. 

I think I've been a little bit more able to take apart what you get, just sort of mainstream liberal media sends you a message, and then I've been able to sort of see that in another dimension, "All right, well, maybe I agree with that and it feels good because I'm hearing something I agree with, but there's actually a depth to it and a nuance that I can appreciate that not everybody agrees with what this was just told to me".  So, I think that and that's important, because you want to have a conversation with somebody you don't agree with.  That's not happening now.  I'm not having conversations in my life day-to-day with people I don't agree with, but by discovering Bitcoin I can see the arguments.  Even if I don't have to agree with them, I can say, "Well, this makes sense, and I understand why you would say that". 

There's a lot of things about the welfare state or the political establishment right now that exist because of the fiat money system, right?  There are Band-Aids put on top of an unfair and unjust system to try to make it look a little bit more fair or to try to ease the suffering of people who have been mistreated or financially abused by the system.  I don't think we can snap our fingers and say, "Well, the right thing to do is just get rid of all of that", because it's based off of a faulty system in the first place.  So, you have to get a new system in place, you have to move towards a new system, and you can't just dismantle all of the safety nets and all of the welfare state that exists now, because those are in place for a reason and that reason is mostly fiat money.  It's just ruining the social dynamic of money and all of that.  So, much more nuanced views about lots of things.  I've not become necessarily more conservative! 

Peter McCormack: I think that's a fair way of explaining it, understanding the incentives of this political, industrial complex. 

Jason Maier: No, and it's true.  And I'll get people who interview me about Bitcoin who are conservative, and I'll make that point, "Well, Democratic politicians are just saying this because they know that it's going to resonate with certain people and they're not giving you the whole story".  And they think, "Oh, it's great".  The same thing is happening on the other side, right, it's happening all over.  So, I think that it just sort of transcends this political... 

I had a conversation with my wife the other day.  And I'll just say my wife is the smartest, most capable person I know.  She's also way more liberal even than I am.  And we watched this documentary the other day in which the police and government had misused their power to arrest somebody in this documentary.  And we ended it and said, "That's horrible that they would abuse their power and break the rules to arrest this person".  And we got into a conversation, and through that conversation you sound a Bitcoiner!  And she's way even more left than I am in a lot of ways, right?  And she had this epiphany, it was like, "Yeah, there is common ground here and there's people who are incentivised to keep us fighting". 

So, even though she wouldn't agree with necessarily Republican politicians or the conservative movement on lots of things, there are moments where there can be overlap, if you can get past that narrative piece.  It was a beautiful moment for me for her to say, "The people in power are incentivised to keep us fighting with each other, instead of seeing our common ground".  That's the power that Bitcoin has, we just have to get the book into people's hands, have to get them orange-pilled, so then they can transcend.  They're not going to transcend first, they have to understand Bitcoin first. 

Peter McCormack: Well, this is why I think a lot of people hope that Bitcoin will bridge that political divide.  I think most of us see what's going on now.  Balaji put out a great tweet recently, I can't remember the dates on it, but it was blue dots or red dots. 

Danny Knowles: I saw that, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: And then now it's just completely separated.  But when we talk about money, the issues of money affect everyone.  It is apolitical, inflation affects every single person the same, recessions affect everyone. 

Jason Maier: They do and they affect some people more than others. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but we're all affected.  And so it is the place we can all meet and agree that we all benefit from a better financial system, every single one of us.  So, that could be the start of bringing people back together. 

Jason Maier: Absolutely, and I found just in general, if you want to learn about money and understand money, stop listening to economics, economists, start listening to philosophers and sociologists.  Talk to people who study how we think and talk to people who study society, because that's where money is and that's how it works.  And the more you can learn about money and the monetary history and how it works and how it's supposed to work compared to how it's working now, the better off everyone will be.  And it is a common ground.  There's nothing political about it, to have money that works, so you can transact in a way that's free and fair and transparent in the way that how money is created.  None of that is inherently political or needs to be fought about; that is a common ground. 

Peter McCormack: Oh, and I think that's why it's been a good time for Troy and Andrew Bailey and these philosophers coming to Bitcoin.  I think the libertarian arguments of Bitcoin suited it at the time, the four to eight years ago, and I think right now this arrival of yourself and other progressives, I think the arrival of the philosophers, I think the arrival of the macroeconomists, that's a reflection on how much Bitcoin has permeated different parts of the world, society, culture, and we need this growing body of conversation and nuance.

Jason Maier: Yeah, let's have competition of ideas, let's talk about what Bitcoin is, how it affects people, let's not just pigeonhole it.  I mean, the goal is in 100 years, they're not called bitcoiners, they're just called people, that's the goal.  And if that's not your goal, then I'm sorry, then we're not on the same, and we're not working for the same thing.  My goal is in 100 years, it's just people, and everyone's using it in one way or the other.  And that's philosophers and economists and libertarians and Democrats and Republicans and everybody else.  So, that's what I'm hoping. 

I think that I wrote this book thinking that one day it's not going to be needed anymore.  If it's successful, then we don't need the Progressive's Case for Bitcoin anymore because it's just seen as a neutral money that anybody can get into.  This is for the class of 2024, 2028.  It's not for the class of 2030, 2032.  People aren't going to need it anymore if it's successful, so that's the hope.

Peter McCormack: Because the robots will have taken over as well!

Jason Maier: Maybe! 

Peter McCormack: We'll all be dead. 

Jason Maier: I'll have to write a new book like, "All right, well now we need a new argument".  But if the book is successful, then it's not needed in the future, because we don't need a Progressive's Case for Bitcoin in a perfect world.  People feel comfortable learning and understanding and welcomed into a community without needing this resource, so that's the goal.  And in the meantime, buy it and give it to people so we can get to that point. 

Peter McCormack: It'll be The Robots' Case for Bitcoin! 

Jason Maier: They'll know, right?

Peter McCormack: They'll know.

Jason Maier: There's no world in which AI has taken over, they're not using Bitcoin, obviously.

Peter McCormack: Do you think you've got another book in you?

Jason Maier: Yeah, so I'm on sabbatical to promote the book and to educate people about Bitcoin. 

Peter McCormack: Here we go! 

Jason Maier: I promised my family that I wouldn't write a book for one year, so I'm not against the idea of writing another book.  I think that there's potential for a more apolitical conversation, to which I'm happy to engage with.  There's room for actual curriculum that can be written that I would like to be part of.  I think there's lots of potential for more projects. 

Peter McCormack: I think an apolitical book framed as, "This is apolitical", framed as, "This is money for everyone", would be a fantastic book.

Jason Maier: Yeah, and again, I did not get into writing the book because I was this offended, snowflake progressive, it was because I was a teacher and I knew that people weren't going to learn otherwise, certain people weren't going to learn otherwise.  So, my goal has been what is the pedagogy of this, how do you teach people about Bitcoin, how do you reach them? 

Peter McCormack: Me and Danny both looked at your email and were like, "What's that word?!"

Jason Maier: Pedagogy is how you teach somebody something, right?  And the goal of the book is to teach somebody a complicated, difficult concept that's scary to them, in a way that's comfortable and gets them on board with wanting to learn more.  If you're a teacher who cares about something like that, then this is what you want to do.  You want to get them hooked, you want to get the student interested, asking questions, continuing their journey in a way that's very welcoming and not scary. 

So, the pedagogy, I mean that's the primary thing.  It's not about the Progressive's Case.  I mean, that's very important and very useful and important right now, but it's about the pedagogy; how do you teach people about something that's difficult and scary and important to them?  They need to learn it.

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, again, I don't ever want this to sound condescending in any way at all, but I'm just so proud to have seen you do this and watch it and just watch this journey you've gone on.  It is brilliant.  And, again, I say it's an advert to anyone listening.  If you're listening and thinking, "I want to do it", just do it, just start.  Put one foot in front of the other.  One day, Jason opened up a Google Doc and started something; one day, I went on Amazon and bought this microphone; one day, Danny dropped an email; one day, Connor came to me and we had a conversation about university, and you put that first foot forward and you keep going and if you're listening, you want to do something, we will help.  Reach out, if we like the idea, we'll support you.  Anything I've not asked you about that you wish I had; any part of this you wanted to explain?

Jason Maier: No, well I think that obviously the book is a passion project, it's something I care very much about.  The intention is for people to buy it for themselves and for people that they love.  If you have people in your life that you love and you want to orange-pill and you think this book is good for them, then I hope it serves that purpose.  The website for the book is bitcoinprogressive.com, so you can buy it either through Amazon or Bitcoin Magazine.  And I think that the real hope is that we just reach a new audience, right? 

The marketable target audience here is huge.  There's a lot of people who consider themselves left of centre who know nothing about Bitcoin, and who will be open to learning if they're presented with an argument that makes sense to them.  So, we're talking about an absolutely huge population of people who can get orange-pilled through conversations that you're having with people and by reading the book and looking at other resources.  So, I'm very optimistic about the future and about how we can actually start educating people about Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: Audio book?

Jason Maier: Yeah, so great.  The e-book is coming out this summer, audio book should be released in the fall.

Peter McCormack: Are you reading it?

Jason Maier: No!  I'm going to have a professional read it, I don't like my voice. 

Peter McCormack: Nobody likes their voice.

Jason Maier: Yeah, no, I know.  So, Bitcoin Magazine who published the book is taking it very seriously, they're going to have it professionally done.  There's going to be a nice audio book available for people in the fall.  That's how I consume most of my Bitcoin learning, with headphones on.

Peter McCormack: I want it to be Guy Swann.

Jason Maier: Well, it might be.  I think that they're working on a way that makes it work within their time frame, because they want to get it out.  And I think Guy, from what I understand, Guy is backlogged.  He's got a lot of work to do, which is good.

Peter McCormack: I saw him at the conference.  I said, "You're the official voice of Bitcoin". 

Jason Maier: Of course. 

Peter McCormack: "You're the official narrator of Bitcoin".

Jason Maier: I think that they've got somebody else who I think is a really good choice.  I won't divulge who, but I think if that person agrees to do it, I'll be very happy.

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, we're here for you, anything you need.  Hopefully you don't get too big that you won't come on our show in the future.

Jason Maier: Yeah, it's not going to happen!

Peter McCormack: But we will support everything you're doing.  Stay in touch.  Honestly, I'm so happy for you, and thank you for asking me to write the forward, that was a real honour.

Jason Maier: Well, thank you for doing it.  And thank you for all your support.

Peter McCormack: Thank you, ChatGPT, for helping me do it!  No, sorry, I didn't even finish that thing.  So, what happened was, I just had to block.  I was like, "How do I structure this?"  I put in ChatGPT, I said, "Help me write a foreword for a book.  These are my arguments, put into a structure".  And so obviously it spat something out.  So, I copied and pasted that out and then rewrote it based on the structure, but it was that kickstart that gave me the structure.  It's super-useful, and I barely write any long piece these days without using ChatGPT to get started.  I use ChatGPT and Grammarly; they're my two tools.

Jason Maier: I use a calculator sometimes to do arithmetic, you know, it's fine.

Peter McCormack: ChatGPT is a language calculator.

Jason Maier: That's it, yeah, it just helps you get started.

Peter McCormack: All right, man, well done, stay in touch, good luck.

Jason Maier: Yeah, thank you.

Peter McCormack: I don't know when I'll see you next.  Are you going to PacBitcoin? 

Jason Maier: No. 

Peter McCormack: Pacific Bitcoin? 

Jason Maier: Oh, I'm actually trying to, yeah.  I think my wife and I would like to get out there. 

Peter McCormack: Oh yeah, that would be great.

Jason Maier: I would absolutely love to do that.  I think there's an audience for the message out there. 

Peter McCormack: I mean, it's LA! 

Jason Maier: Yeah, I've just got to get people I like; some people don't reply to my emails! 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but then come to us, tell us what help you need. 

Jason Maier: All right, I will. 

Peter McCormack: All right, man.  Listen, keep doing this, thank you, congratulations, this is all so cool.

Jason Maier: All right, thank you too.