WBD622 Audio Transcription
Scaling Bitcoin Culture with Amanda Cavaleri
Release date: Wednesday 22nd February
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Amanda Cavaleri. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.
Amanda Cavaleri is a Bitcoin entrepreneur and board member of the Bitcoin Today Coalition. In this wide-ranging interview, we discuss the upcoming Bitcoin Ski Summit Amanda is organizing, how Bitcoin can help the United States, whether Bitcoin should be radical or conservative, the importance of values in Bitcoin culture, and the promise of Nostr.
“If I were a decision maker in the US I would probably want to figure out how to embrace Bitcoin to make the US dollar stronger. I think that’s a pretty smart move. We’ll see if that happens.”
— Amanda Cavaleri
Interview Transcription
Amanda Cavaleri: You've been here before, right; Pubkey?
Peter McCormack: No, it's my first time.
Amanda Cavaleri: Me too.
Peter McCormack: It's my first Pubkey.
Amanda Cavaleri: Me too.
Peter McCormack: And you're not here tomorrow? Damn shame.
Amanda Cavaleri: No, I stayed a day for you.
Peter McCormack: I would stay two days for you.
Danny Knowles: What is a Pubkey, Peter?
Amanda Cavaleri: Well, next year you're coming to Jackson Hole for me.
Peter McCormack: What was that?
Danny Knowles: What is a pubkey?
Amanda Cavaleri: Something you can share; you can share the other one.
Peter McCormack: It's a npub?
Danny Knowles: Yeah, well that's the Nostr one, right?
Peter McCormack: That was Peter's first tweet.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I mean that would be interesting to talk about; Nostr.
Peter McCormack: We can talk about Nostr. My first -- not my first -- was it my first nost?
Danny Knowles: What do they call it?
Peter McCormack: Notes. They call them notes.
Amanda Cavaleri: Notes, it is notes.
Peter McCormack: My first note was, "What the fuck is an npub?"! We can talk about Nostr.
Amanda Cavaleri: A Nostr public key.
Peter McCormack: I've been playing on Nostr today for my first time.
Amanda Cavaleri: Have you?
Peter McCormack: I have.
Amanda Cavaleri: Welcome.
Peter McCormack: You know we're recording now? We're live. Do you know about the story when I first met Amanda?
Danny Knowles: No.
Amanda Cavaleri: Oh, yeah.
Peter McCormack: I had a very early drink, didn't I; wasn't it like midday?
Amanda Cavaleri: No, it was afternoon.
Peter McCormack: Was it afternoon? Like 2.00pm.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, 2.30pm.
Peter McCormack: It was a whiskey sour, bit aggressive. I went to interview David Chaum.
Danny Knowles: Where was that?
Peter McCormack: In London, it was in a hotel.
Danny Knowles: I thought it was in London. Why were you in London; just visiting?
Amanda Cavaleri: Working with David Chaum.
Danny Knowles: Oh, okay.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it didn't work out, the interview, but we've stayed friends ever since.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, we bonded.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, which was cool. That was, what, how long ago?
Amanda Cavaleri: I don't know; four years ago almost, or five?
Peter McCormack: And this weird thing happened. I'd never heard of Jackson Hole and after I met Amanda, she mentioned Jackson Hole to me as a place and everywhere I'd go, I would see Jackson Hole here, Jackson Hole -- I even met that dude on the plane.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I remember that.
Peter McCormack: What was his name? He was that lawyer guy.
Amanda Cavaleri: Bob? Yeah, I know who you're talking about.
Peter McCormack: So, this Jackson Hole thing was building up and up. Anyway, I get on this plane and I sit down in my seat and this guy sits next to me, really cool guy, and we start chatting away, "Are you from the UK?" I'm like, "Yeah, from Bedford. Where are you from?" He's like, "Jackson Hole", I was like, "Motherfucker!" This place keeps coming up, why does it keep coming up? He was like, "You should come and visit", and Amanda has been telling me for how long?
Amanda Cavaleri: Four years.
Peter McCormack: Four years, "Come to Jackson --"
Danny Knowles: Have you not been?
Peter McCormack: I've not been and I can't come to the ski event.
Amanda Cavaleri: Next year.
Peter McCormack: Do you want to shill it; do you need more people?
Amanda Cavaleri: We don't need more people, but if people want to join and ski and have fun, and there are a few tickets left for Beefsteak, but it's pretty much tapped out because it's an enclosed environment so we can't --
Peter McCormack: A citadel?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, the Four Seasons' citadel, I guess. But it's a cool spot. The reason we do it there is because the Fed meets out there every summer.
Peter McCormack: What?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, just north of Jackson Hole.
Peter McCormack: What? You didn't tell me that! Now I want to go.
Amanda Cavaleri: That sounded bad, yeah!
Peter McCormack: What are the dates again?
Amanda Cavaleri: It's the first week of March, I think, yeah, the first week of March. I mean, it's really interesting, we try to save 50 tickets for locals. So, part of the reason why I moved there is it's kind of, as you found out, it's kind of like a magnet for really interesting people to visit or live. So we've got everything from extraordinary athletes, because the mountains are so extreme there, very steep.
Peter McCormack: I'm an extraordinary athlete.
Amanda Cavaleri: You are, so you'll be out there next year.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I should be there!
Amanda Cavaleri: And then we've got Fortune 500 board members, folks involved in policy. So my ulterior motive for moving there is I started orange pilling people on a ski lift when I couldn't travel for work because of COVID. So, I spent two months just every day on the ski lift, "Do you know about Bitcoin?" experimenting.
Peter McCormack: Did it work?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I mean I actually made some friends doing that, a lot of boomer friends. So, some of them come out, will be coming out to the ski summit.
Peter McCormack: How many people live up there; how big a place is it?
Amanda Cavaleri: 30,000.
Peter McCormack: Okay, and it seems to me like it's a rich person's place?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, it's tough to live there. So, I think 96% or 98% of the land is protected, so it's either forest or ranches, so it can't really develop much more. It's definitely a bubble, so there's a lot of issues with affordable housing and definitely some problems having normal humans living there. It's hard, it's hard for me to live there.
Peter McCormack: Normal, just not rich assholes!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah!
Peter McCormack: How far is it from Wyoming?
Amanda Cavaleri: It is in Wyoming.
Peter McCormack: Oh, it's in the state?
Amanda Cavaleri: It's right on the Idaho border.
Peter McCormack: Oh, I thought it was in Idaho.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, you have Jackson Hole here, the border and Idaho. But the Tetons are the border, the Teton mountain range.
Peter McCormack: That's so cool that you're doing it where the -- why do the Fed meet there once a year?
Amanda Cavaleri: I mean, maybe because the Rockefellers had some land out there. Who knows?
Peter McCormack: And what do they meet for? Just how they can fuck with us?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, how the year is going to go.
Peter McCormack: So, what have you called the event?
Amanda Cavaleri: Basic: The Bitcoin Ski Summit! It is what it is.
Peter McCormack: Oh, I thought you could have done a play on the Fed.
Amanda Cavaleri: We totally can, yeah, miss, miss. Maybe we can rebrand it, it doesn't matter to me. This is a passion project, this is not a money-maker, it's just fun, fun to have people out.
Peter McCormack: What's the main challenges of pulling it together?
Amanda Cavaleri: It's not an easy place logistically. So, pretty much everyone, the first year they come, I talk to them and explain where to fly into, where to stay, all of the logistics, which day is skiing; and we have a lot of side events. There'll be a Beefsteak there and a Pubkey popup one night with a DJ, so it's just explaining all these side events and then really trying to figure out, "Do you ski or snowboard; what level are you?" and then I do this thing for very good skiers and boarders where I'll rank guides for experts, like black diamond skiers, as a reward for your proof of work for putting in the work to become a good skier or boarder.
Peter McCormack: I really want to go.
Amanda Cavaleri: I know.
Danny Knowles: It sounds so much fun.
Peter McCormack: What are the dates; 1st of…?
Danny Knowles: March.
Peter McCormack: What day of the week's that?
Amanda Cavaleri: So, you can arrive on Wednesday, the 1st, at night.
Peter McCormack: So, I'd have to come on Thursday, the 2nd, because it's my dad's birthday.
Amanda Cavaleri: I mean, you could stay through the week. A lot of people leave Sunday, most people leave Sunday, the 5th.
Peter McCormack: Who are Real Bedford playing that weekend?
Amanda Cavaleri: I mean, we could see if a bar could play it.
Peter McCormack: No, it's not that. Do you know what, this is unbelievable. I've got 12 guys flying in from Eastern Europe --
Amanda Cavaleri: Oh, amazing.
Peter McCormack: -- to come and have dinner and come and watch a game. They've already been out. They loved it so much, they're bringing 12 of them back.
Danny Knowles: Holmer Green.
Peter McCormack: Holmer Green, yeah, so I can't do it.
Amanda Cavaleri: Okay, next year.
Peter McCormack: Next year. It's the craziest thing, these guys -- they didn't come from Canada, but two Canadians made a pilgrimage up to Bedford to watch our game. We're getting them in from everywhere.
Amanda Cavaleri: You should get them in. I think the interesting part about what you're doing is you find, if our greater mission is to bring in more bitcoiners and help people have access to freedom and equality rails at the most authentic, genuine level, finding these networks where you can influence is so great. So I mean football is such a universal connector for football that it's brilliant; I love it.
Peter McCormack: So, you've done this up in Jackson Hole, you know the area, you know the people, you know what makes them tick, you're building a community, you're now running a ski summit; here in New York, Thomas is running Pubkey and doing Bitcoin events, there's a mining thing today; I've got a football team in Bedford, England, which is a Bitcoin team and I've got orange people; but there's these overlaps. So, I'm here in New York. Tomorrow we're going to watch the live stream of the Bedford game here. So, these networks, they're like nodes, aren't they, of the network. There's the football node, there's the ski node, and we start connecting with each other. I love it.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I do too, it's so exciting, especially when you're passionate because you can connect to people on a more genuine level and so then it's like, "Oh, you're into football? I'm into football. I'm also into this and here's why", and you're able to teach in a way that maybe no one else has ever been able to teach them before and the light comes on.
Peter McCormack: Well, that happens. So, we do these meetups before the games, some of them, and it's really mixed. Sometimes we've had 80 there, I think the most; the one on the weekend, I'd say we had 30. By the way, let me tell you this brilliant story. So, I presented for the first time, I don't usually like to present, but the one area of Bitcoin I'm really interested in presenting about is why we need Bitcoin; we made a show on it once, and talking about all the different use cases and why this is important.
So, there's 30 people in this room, one guy brought his two kids, one of them is like 10 years old. And anyway, I put out, I said, "Why do we need Bitcoin?" A couple of people said something. Anyway, this kid puts his hand up and it's like, "Yeah, why do we need Bitcoin?" I swear to God, this 10-year-old he was like, "To limit the scope of government". I was like, "What the fuck! How old are you?" He was like, "I'm 10". I was like, "Wow, that's good parenting there".
But super-interesting. We get all these people come in, they come for football and if they want to come to a meetup, they can, and if they don't give a fuck about Bitcoin, they can just watch the football. But they can't help but notice it and want to know what it's all about. And I think as we become more successful, as we win the league, people are going to go, "Well, what is it?" even to the point, I've written the programme for tomorrow, I don't know if you've read what I wrote?
Danny Knowles: Not yet.
Peter McCormack: Danny has to doublecheck it. The problem with football is all these clubs, Amanda, they're all the same, they all have the same messages, "What do you stand for?" "Sporting excellence". They'll all have a ladies' team as they should, all have a disabled team as they should, and kids' team, because they're following due process. They'll all have the same anti-racism message; the only difference is the colours of their kit. They don't stand for anything, and so I just think that's bullshit. I think you should stand for something.
We stand for financial education, people understanding money, and I wrote all about that in this because I think it's an opportunity when you've got a platform here, you've got an opportunity to tell people what they're not being told elsewhere, because no one wants to take a risk.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, it's easier to take a risk as a group, much easier, so that's where team sports is really fascinating too.
Peter McCormack: But sometimes when you take a risk, you can be isolated; Kaepernick.
Amanda Cavaleri: Sure.
Peter McCormack: He took a risk and was isolated.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I mean that's the risk in taking a risk.
Peter McCormack: Yeah!
Amanda Cavaleri: There's a lot of dignity in taking risks though, right? I think that's a big reason why this is so important and open-source technology is so important. The more centralised things become with AI or CBDCs, the less risks people will take and the less innovation we'll have and the less we will fulfil our potential. And that's actually back to Chaum. I believe that, that privacy is innately tied to human potential, but so is the ability to take risk, entrepreneurial risk, creative risk. So, when you're monitored a lot, that goes away. And so it's hard, because that monitoring could be if you're a well-known person, it could be afraid to send that tweet or try this idea because you have too much to lose, but that's where maybe with a group, sometimes it's a little easier.
Peter McCormack: Well, we're a group now! Chaum was the one who said, "Privacy is a fundamental pillar of democracy.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I'm sure he said that, and I'm sure I read that when I was reading about the development of DigiCash. His big thing was, without privacy you don't have democracy.
Amanda Cavaleri: Right, and I don't disagree. I mean, I spent a lot of time in Asia before COVID and I was in Hong Kong consulting during the protests, and that was pretty heavy. I think that taught me a lot about which direction things can go in, and I think that's really tied to control of money, control of communications. Control of those two aspects are probably some of the most important vectors for us to protect right now. So, that's where things like, and we were talking earlier about Nostr, is really fascinating, because you don't have to use an email, phone number; you don't need any of that for this. So, while some anonymous accounts can be a little --
Peter McCormack: Aggressive?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah. Sometimes they're not wrong and those things need to be said, and if everyone is too worried about what others think so they're not going to say it, then that's a problem too. So, I think there's a balance and there's a natural equilibrium, so it's really important to protect the privacy of those people.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, and I think alongside that, to make yourself as antifragile as possible. I mean, Jordan Peterson was talking about this recently where he said one of the things he's learned is that he needs to have multiple revenue streams, because he was essentially being cancelled in his traditional career. What is he; a psychologist?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, he's being cancelled, and he said, "The risk I had is I only had a single income stream". He's now doing events and podcasts and he does his stuff. He said, "The reason to do that is to make yourself antifragile". We're trying to do the same with our podcast. It's a fragile business based on advertising, which is why we're trying to do that as well.
When you talk about what you saw in Hong Kong, is that a lens that you look through here in the US, or what's happening in Europe, and do you worry about the fragility of democracy and these kinds of western liberal democracies we live in now?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah. I mean, yes, I think the more monitoring we have, I think the less people will feel comfortable to go out and protest and voice their dissent, or to feel comfortable speaking their mind. So, that's actually something that I find really fascinating. And then you look at this bigger -- Hong Kong was one thing; really, the UK didn't do much for Hong Kong, and it was what it was, we don't have to judge that or go in the past.
Peter McCormack: You can do.
Amanda Cavaleri: I'm not impressed. I think having more time -- because I know a lot of people from Hong Kong and I know how it affected their lives and their families' livelihoods in very negative ways, and then COVID came and the world forgot about it, and now it's China. So, I think that happened so quickly that it makes it easier for Taiwan to be next, for countries, or emerging markets that have quite a bit of debt, they owe China quite a bit. Imagine China saying, "Well, we'll forgive your debt, but you have to use our digital currency".
So, their currency's probably already inflated that's an alternative to the US dollar; it's kind of the dominoes going. Then, there's already this ownership of infrastructure, physical land, communications. So, I think if we're looking at this, not necessarily China versus the world, but control versus freedom or democracy or republics, or whatever that is, we need to have an alternative and help people around the world access this alternative. So, it's really quite a beautiful thing to see bitcoiners creating these companies with these larger missions; it's so much bigger than a few of us, it's such a massive undertaking.
I think a lot about how Satoshi even created this and it's miraculous. It's like, how? It took a few years of hard lessons and pain for me to get it and come back full circle, but I think I really needed to see what else was out there and be, "No, this is special".
Peter McCormack: You talk about the digital yuan and you talk about freedom versus control. That says to me you're thinking about the digital yuan versus Bitcoin rather than against the dollar. Is that almost an admission of defeat that the dollar is dying essentially as the global reserve currency, it's losing the race against the digital yuan?
Amanda Cavaleri: It's losing its stronghold, I believe. If I were a decision-maker in the US, I would probably want to figure out how to embrace Bitcoin to make the US dollar stronger. I think that's a pretty smart move; we'll see if that happens.
Peter McCormack: Why do you think Bitcoin makes the US dollar stronger?
Amanda Cavaleri: Because it gives people a couple of things. I mean, we're seeing companies being built, like Strike, where you can go in and out of US dollar to Bitcoin, and I think that's extremely important for cross-border payments and globalisation of business. I don't think we're getting out of that. I think we'll have more and more currencies -- just like languages have been going extinct, I think we'll have more currencies go extinct at a pretty rapid pace over the next 10, 15 years. I mean, it could happen faster than that or not at all, but that's my thought.
Peter McCormack: I'm with you, I mean I think it's happening. We've seen the Lebanese pound, another 90% devaluation again.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: They need to get away from their own currency; that country cannot manage a sovereign currency and it's destroyed the economy of the country, it's destroyed people's lives.
Amanda Cavaleri: It has.
Peter McCormack: We're seeing what's happening in Nigeria now, we're seeing even Turkey with massive inflation, Argentina's always a basket case.
Amanda Cavaleri: I was just in Argentina.
Peter McCormack: How bad is it getting there?
Amanda Cavaleri: So, it was right after they won the World Cup, the next day, so everyone was happy to win the World Cup. But when you talk to people one-on-one, I mean they're suffering. Some of the locals I talked to who are around my age, they said normally there's this gloom, heavy feeling, but because of the win, everyone's amped up, speaking of football right, amped up. But I think it will go back.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I mean there's multiple cycles of going through the same shit in Argentina. I mean, having been there and spent time with people from there, I mean there's no trust in the money, people don't want the money, they want dollars. I don't know about you but I'm agreeing with you that these currencies are dying and every time they're trying to create one, there's no confidence in them internationally and there's no confidence with them locally. And for these economies to have a chance to rebuild themselves, they need something stronger.
I think the biggest risk is countries trying to compete with China with their own CBDC. I think they lose because they will not do it as well.
Amanda Cavaleri: I know.
Peter McCormack: The only benefit to a CBDC is control and surveillance and you won't get away with as much control and surveillance in a western liberal democracy.
Amanda Cavaleri: No. Imagine trying to tell an American from Texas that they have to use a CBDC, and then when you go to the grocery store, these are the groceries you can buy and if not, it expires. I mean, it's just mind-boggling. So, I think in the US, it's going to be really difficult. It's fascinating though speaking with folks in DC, especially on the Democratic side, and it's chilled out a little bit now we have FTX FUD to deal with; but a lot of times, Democrat offices will say, "We don't need Bitcoin, we have CBDC", and it's like very fundamentally different.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, we don't need planes, we've got cars!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, or donkeys! I do like donkeys though!
Peter McCormack: I just think the way to compete with control is freedom, sell the world freedom, sell the world on freedom technology, which is Bitcoin. I think that's the way you win and I think freedom will always win. I mean, it's like the North Koreans looking over the border in South Korea and trying to escape, they're trying to escape to freedom. Why would you -- you want to escape to freedom and freedom money.
This is why sometimes with some bitcoiners, they say, "Forget DC, forget all the politicians, just keep building, tick tock, another block", but there are a lot of people now trying to work with preventing some regulatory overreach. Danny brought it up earlier, the Nic Carter article, which I haven't read yet, his Operation Choke Point; but my fear is this regulatory scope creep that just makes it harder and harder to be a bitcoiner. You know the DC crowd better than I do, do you think there's effective work being done?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yes and no. I mean, it's a lot of work, that's the problem. So, I'm a part of the Board of Directors of the Bitcoin Today Coalition which is a (c)(4), so we go in and teach. So that's on the Hill. We also have a subgroup called Veterans for Energy and Technology Security, we have a former Army Ranger, we have a former State Department Marine, across the board, and we're working on getting those people out to DC and teaching and just building trust; that's the main thing, building trust and doing this in a way that speaks the language of DC.
If you go into DC and you come in hot to trot and, "We're going to do it this way", what's going on behind the scenes for the staffers is probably not as positive as we would want it to be, so we focus on building trust and education and finding people who have the potential to be bitcoiners in these offices and then helping them feel supported so they can take that risk and be that person in their office. Another thing we're doing is trying to staff bitcoiners in jobs in DC.
Peter McCormack: Oh, wow!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, just Trojan horse it.
Peter McCormack: Wow, sneaky!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, and that could go two ways. That could be in the private sector in DC or it could be the government sector in DC, but I think the more we can do that, really the name of the game is, I don't disagree, I think it's slowing it down, not in a defensive way, but slow the train down because right now, it is just barrelling through. They'll use any excuse to push legislation that will look like they're protecting consumers. So, this FTX thing really did hurt everything, including Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, so the whole consumer protection thing kind of pisses me off, because the people who are the most reckless spenders of our money is the government and if anything, we need consumer protection from the government. For these people to preach about consumer protection is massively critical.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I mean politics is pretty icky. I don't feel good when I come back home from DC; I have to go ski it out, I'm not kidding!
Peter McCormack: Get in the fresh air.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Is it itself fundamentally broken, or do you think it's always been that way? The reason I bring it up is that we've had this chart on before which shows how the US is becoming more and more partisan. And to me, if it's become more partisan, it's becoming more broken, because the incentives are such that there's no reason to cross the aisle to do what is right for the electorate, it is to do what is right for you and your career. A lot of people recently in various interviews I've heard talk about how people now, they become senators to become famous; they don't become senators because they're people of strong ethic moral. Like, who's that Gaetz guy I've been reading about recently, what's his name?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I haven't --
Peter McCormack: Matt Gaetz?
Amanda Cavaleri: -- his office, but yeah, maybe one day.
Peter McCormack: He just seems like an unusual person to be a senator.
Amanda Cavaleri: There are a lot and I think that isn't totally new. What I would say is, from where the US has gone from the Bill of Rights to where we are now, and there were a lot of people who did not agree with each other back then and there was a lot of passion and headbutting, but it created a beautiful product, a beautiful ideal-based country; but I feel you're right. The nickname for DC is, "The Ugly People's Hollywood" for a reason!
Peter McCormack: Yeah!
Amanda Cavaleri: Some are not ugly!
Peter McCormack: Who?
Amanda Cavaleri: There are a few inside. There are a few who really have made it all the way to the Hill and have some moral code left, not many. But Senator Lummis, I mean she strives very hard to work across the aisle. She is a true cowgirl, I have a lot of respect for her.
Peter McCormack: I think I saw her on Nostr earlier!
Amanda Cavaleri: Good!
Peter McCormack: That's like, "Go on!" I saw her at Beefsteak, a senator at a Beefsteak. I think she's amazing.
Amanda Cavaleri: She is. I mean, you speak with her and you know that she's actually listening and not trying to sell you something.
Peter McCormack: Oh, she's the real fucking deal.
Amanda Cavaleri: She's genuinely connecting and trying to understand where you're coming from, which is the point of --
Peter McCormack: But this is what I would want from all politicians, to be ideal-based, who want the best for the electorate, and there seems such a brazen disregard for the people who voted them in. Actually, sorry, even further than that. My belief is that any politician who's voted in represents the entire electorate, even the ones who didn't vote them in. If you're a senator for Texas, you represent the Democrats and the Republicans in your state, not just the Republicans. It's to the point of the question I put to Senator Cruz, I was like, "Tell me something about Democrat policies that you like"; he wouldn't give me anything. I was like, "Wow, so you just don't give a shit about --" You can disagree, but you should give a shit because that's the electorate, and I just don't think these people care any more.
Amanda Cavaleri: Well, DC's a total machine, right. The way they become so partisan is they get these talking points, test them out and unfortunately, algorithms and the people who vote in primaries prefer the more extreme. So, to vote in a primary, you have to be registered Republican or Democrat, and that's where we're getting these more extreme candidates.
Peter McCormack: Marjorie; is she considered extreme?
Amanda Cavaleri: I would just -- there's so many.
Peter McCormack: You don't want me to name anyone, I get it. I do it by who I see the most from. But it seems to me there are these quite extreme labels being put from one side, like they're groomers and baby-killers.
Amanda Cavaleri: And then on the other side, it's just as bad though.
Peter McCormack: Oh, yeah, that's what I'm saying, they were just the first two I thought of, and I think you can make a much more nuanced point about abortion without calling people baby-killers, you can fundamentally do it. I mean, I disagree with abortion, but you fundamentally disagree with it and make a nuanced argument why rather than just going, "You're baby-killers", because that puts them on the defence knowing -- I think to have an intellectual debate, you have to have nuance.
Amanda Cavaleri: So, this is also a very grand desire, because humans are very flawed and when they've been rewarded for being a certain way, it's harder for them to cross that chasm. And as it gets wider, as the gap gets wider, it gets harder and harder to cross. I think eventually what will happen is, I hope not, but I think something will have to break and I don't know what that is exactly, and I would hope that we can prevent that and maybe Bitcoin's part of that because it's higher than anything.
I mean, there's the idea of the Orange Party from the Lex Fridman podcast. I think that's a big, like CJ and I were on about Bitcoin and the American Dream, that's a big piece of it, is this is bigger than a party, so transcending the political divide. It also unfortunately requires a lot of emotional intelligence and really humbling yourself and pushing your ego down, or dealing with the stuff that created certain aspects of your ego, and most people in this fast-paced world just don't have time for it.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think that's a really important point because for Bitcoin to succeed, it has to be apolitical as a tool. Bitcoin isn't political, it is a tool for sending value around that everybody needs. This is why someone like Senator Lummis crossing the aisle with Senator Gillibrand I think is brilliant and I would love Ted Cruz to do the same, because if conservatives have really bought into Bitcoin, they really need to have a relationship with Democrats on this issue and not become something that is another partisan fight. This needs to be understood as a tool for everyone, like the internet, like AI. All these are are tools; they're only weapons if you point them the wrong way. Any kind of partisan fight would be terrible for Bitcoin, but it would be terrible for the conservatives who like Bitcoin.
Amanda Cavaleri: Both sides. One of the things that's really frustrating is that Bitcoin, I see it as two things: the rails for freedom and equality. And so, you look at those two things and neither side of the aisle disagrees that those are extremely fundamental, important characteristics of a functioning United States, and at the same time for different reasons, maybe energy for example. And maybe it's a lack of understanding of how the grid works and how much energy is actually stranded or wasted, and looking at ESG, completely forget about the S and the G, the governance of Bitcoin is beautiful, it's one of the most amazing things there that exists; the S, creating jobs in rural areas that there were no jobs, based off just a stranded resource, something that's been created and wasted; and the E is it allows for innovation and infrastructure. So I believe I'm a nuclear fan.
Peter McCormack: I think we are now.
Amanda Cavaleri: I heard.
Peter McCormack: Did you hear the Anthony Jared show we did?
Amanda Cavaleri: I haven't yet.
Peter McCormack: You've got to, you've got to check this show out, it will blow your mind, the guy is incredible. We're pro-nuclear guys now.
Danny Knowles: That's one of my favourite shows we've made in a long time.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, apart from today.
Danny Knowles: Obviously!
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I mean it's very obvious to me that Bitcoin ticks every ESG box almost more than anything else there is. It was designed for ESG, at a time where ESG's kind of dying, it's reputationally dying.
Amanda Cavaleri: It is.
Peter McCormack: And I think the problem with ESG is that it was used to virtue signal some ideas and push some narratives and there was a lot of hypocrisy within the scoring systems of ESG companies, a lot of bullshit, so I think it naturally failed. But I think the issues that people care about within ESG are important issues.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah. I think living in Jackson Hole, I mean there's so much protection for the land around there. And one could argue that's because the billionaires are protecting their property value and don't want more neighbours. At the same time, you could argue that this is a very special place and needs to be protected from us ants.
Peter McCormack: Peasants!
Amanda Cavaleri: No, I don't mean peasants! We've got a lot of amazing ski bums and a really interesting community and visitors.
Peter McCormack: I'm teasing you, come on!
Amanda Cavaleri: So, we need the bald eagles, it's fascinating. So, I definitely appreciate that and protecting parts of the world physically. I also think the way that we do things, when it's controlled by government or utilities, which are almost worse than government because they can't be voted out, it's fascinating, that whole world is fascinating. And some utilities are amazing and super-innovative and you're like, "Why is it just this state or this region?" And some energy co-ops are very innovative, but I'd say some of the larger ones maybe are very stuck and they're trying to protect their moat, and that's the thing, that's what we see with centralised entities; they're protecting their moat and making it wider and wider and wider until eventually, they can't get out or nobody can get in, and that's what's happening with so many things, I mean so many things.
Peter McCormack: What role do you think Bitcoin culture will play in the future adoption acceptance of Bitcoin, because there is no longer a single Bitcoin culture? I think you could argue there perhaps was quite a singular culture in the early days, and I think it's fractured and there's multiple subcultures. But there are consistent threads, consistent strands, consistent ideas, but there's quite an anti-government, anti-state side of Bitcoin at a time where we've got regulatory scope creep coming from the state at the same time. Do you think there's a need for culture to adapt and change; or, how do you think about that whole area, because we spoke in advance that we'd maybe discuss Bitcoin culture?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, and that's part of why I got involved with Pubkey and the Ski Summit and the policy. I think it's time for us, at least for me, I'll speak for myself; a lot of us come to Bitcoin because we didn't fit in the current systems that exist, or we ask why. And whether that means we're, for me, dyslexic or whatever someone's thing is, we just see things a little bit differently or just can't conform to the norm. So, I think that helps that pain or that struggle or that difficulty, maybe younger in age, that might have caused some trauma or some self-esteem, or whatever the issues are. Now we've found this thing and we've found our tribe, whether a subculture within something larger, and a larger mission and are very passionate about it.
So, it's hard when life was so hard for so long and now you have your "A-ha" moment, not to rub it in people's faces, or not to project fear, shame or guilt that maybe you had projected onto you when you were younger. So, I think it's time for us to go in so that we can be better out. So, I hope more bitcoiners can go in, especially during the bear market, it's a perfect time. Go spend time in nature or somatic work, whatever it is, I think there are so many different modalities that people can try and experiment with right now because we're going to need those tools, especially as the centralised entities, like the FDA, give us fewer and fewer options. I think there's a real connection overlap with the Venn diagram between the holistic health world or wellness world and Bitcoin.
We already know we probably shouldn't eat seed oils, we figure these things out just through research and the network effect of enough people doing the research to validate these ideas. So, one thing that I really love is I haven't had alcohol in eight years, so I think the more inward we can go and clean up our streets, our individual houses, I think that will help us be more powerful in bringing the next wave of bitcoiners in with a very values-based approach versus this Number Go Up, FOMO-like fiat; I really don't enjoy bull cycles, honestly, they're brutal.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I know. I feel a little bit embarrassed. I used to do this tweet thread that still exists. Every time it went up $1,000, I would retweet the last one and go up and now I just feel like such a dick for it.
Danny Knowles: We'll see you at $65,000!
Peter McCormack: We got up to $69,000, didn't we?
Danny Knowles: Oh, did we?
Amanda Cavaleri: No, $69,420 though! I know, soon.
Peter McCormack: Hold on, didn't it go $69,000 and crash to $42,000?
Danny Knowles: I didn't think it got that high.
Peter McCormack: I think it crashed from $69,000 to $42,000.
Amanda Cavaleri: We're trying so hard!
Peter McCormack: No, I'm pretty sure it did.
Danny Knowles: Yeah, just under $69,000.
Peter McCormack: Then to what; $42,000?
Danny Knowles: Well, I mean at some point between then and now.
Peter McCormack: No, but wasn't it very quickly to $42,000?
Danny Knowles: Yeah, you're right actually, it was, in like two weeks, I think.
Peter McCormack: Come on, man. Eight years, no alcohol, that's impressive.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: You know I've given up drinking?
Amanda Cavaleri: Oh, I didn't know actually. That's amazing.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I stopped at the start of the year and I refused to say I was doing Dry January, because I kind of said I wanted to do Dry 2023, and I thought I'd see how the first month will go and I'd report back on the end of the year how I've done, but I'm -- you know how some people do it and they say, "I've got to give up", and they try and give up for the month and get through? It's been a relief not drinking and I've drunk a lot in my life.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, same!
Peter McCormack: I didn't give up because I'm any kind of alcoholic; I don't drink a lot at home. But when we used to do this trips, I'd drink on the flight and then we'd hang out together and drink most days, and I'm just, I don't know, it's just gone and I'm not missing it, I'm not feeling like I want to drink, I just don't, I'm just cool with it. It's a weird thing.
Amanda Cavaleri: It's freeing.
Peter McCormack: I think sometimes you get to a point, it was like when I used to take drugs, I smoked weed, when I was younger I used to smoke weed and I wanted to give up and I just never did. And then one day, I just did, and it was like, the time was right, same with cocaine, same with alcohol. It's just habit. There's a time when it's had its time. Yeah, it's definitely liberating.
Amanda Cavaleri: But also thinking of it this way, alcohol's a depressant, so it's a very low vibe, it brings you down.
Peter McCormack: It never did that for me actually. A hangover would.
Amanda Cavaleri: Well, a hangover, but I think over time, well for me, once it was out of my system for a year I was like, I sleep better, life is easier, things are flowing, not everything's a struggle, it just became easier. I mean, I started drinking when I was 12, I was in 7th grade. I mean, this is crazy but my friends --
Peter McCormack: 12? Shit, that's my daughter's age.
Amanda Cavaleri: I know, I got myself kicked out of Gifted and Talented. I was bad. My mum almost sent me to boarding school but she didn't know what was going on because I was still able to hide it, because it was just on the weekends. But it was totally, I mean, it just took me down fast.
Peter McCormack: 12! Jesus!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I was a special kid. Who knew? Who would expect that? But I think, kids, you know, that's what I'm saying. I think a lot of bitcoiners have these things and it's like, where did it come from; how do you heal it within yourself? Because, until you do that, we're not going to be able to build the future in the most amazing way we can. We see this bigger vision. To get to that, you've also got to leave your stuff behind to get to it.
Peter McCormack: That's so funny, that just makes me think of that first time we met and I turn up at like 1.00pm. I still think it was midday and we had to wait for the interview and I was like, "I'm going to have a drink, do you want one?" You were like, "No", I was like, "I'm going to get a whiskey sour or an old-fashioned". You must have been thinking, "You fucking degenerate!"
Amanda Cavaleri: I don't care what other people do, I just care what I do.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's interesting, so I think there's lots of different subcultures, or different aspects of Bitcoin culture and fiat gets attached to a lot of it all and sometimes I find it a bit cringy. But there is diet, alcohol is one thing, exercise, how you exercise, approach to building businesses, what is ethical, what is non-ethical.
Amanda Cavaleri: Are you a high-time preference, or low-time preference; VC, no VC, like that?
Peter McCormack: Yeah. And that was quite interesting actually because we interviewed Danny Scott when we were in London, wasn't it? He's from Coin Corner and he was like, "Yeah, we've never raised any money, we have no one to answer to, we just do our thing", which I thought was super-interesting. I guess that's a consistent thread part of the Bitcoin culture, because it's intrinsically tied to holding Bitcoin, this time preference. So, I think a lot of these things are kind of natural.
Where I think the culture is -- well, I think there's two parts of the culture that are fragmenting. I think there's competing ideologies whether you are somebody who believes in democracy like myself, or somebody who is anarcho-capitalist; that is a competing ideology. But I think right now, we're seeing a resurgence of the competing ideology of the role of block space.
Amanda Cavaleri: We're going there? You're going to make me talk about Ordinals, aren't you?!
Peter McCormack: We don't even have to talk about Ordinals.
Amanda Cavaleri: Okay.
Peter McCormack: I actually wrote a list and this is something that's quite interesting to compare to the ETH weirdos. Everything that happens on ETH is seen as opportunity and seems to be everyone's like, "Oh, there's this new thing, let's do it and let's see what happens". Everything that's done on Bitcoin is seen as, "Oh, this is a threat. Don't trust, verify". Would you say I'm being fair there, Danny?
Danny Knowles: Yeah, I get what you mean. You mean because they're not worried about block space?
Peter McCormack: I think it's build fast, break things.
Danny Knowles: Yeah, totally.
Peter McCormack: Whereas, I think Bitcoin's move slow like a glacier, move slow, it's hard to change, and it's competing. So, whatever the new fucking idea on ETH, whatever it be next time, we've had ICOs and NFTs and exchange tokens.
Amanda Cavaleri: I think there are IFOs now.
Peter McCormack: What's an IFO?
Amanda Cavaleri: I don't know, I thought it was a UFO and I'd read something wrong.
Peter McCormack: What could it be, an IFO? Look up this shit, Danny. But it's always a new thing. And I think what it is, I think ETH is essentially a solution for trying to find a problem.
Amanda Cavaleri: Okay, so yeah, Bitcoin has a product market fit with Hard Money You Can't -- With.
Peter McCormack: "Fuck with", you can swear.
Amanda Cavaleri: Thanks, Jason.
Peter McCormack: Jason Williams.
Amanda Cavaleri: I know, he's a trip.
Peter McCormack: But yeah, so because they haven't found that consistent use case because Bitcoin did it first and they didn't do it as well, they're always trying to find something. What's on IFO?
Danny Knowles: I can't find it.
Peter McCormack: Did you just make that up?
Amanda Cavaleri: No, I'll show you later because there's an article.
Peter McCormack: And so, whatever the next thing is, "Oh, we've got another use case, let's do it". Like, NFTs, whatever the fuck. Whereas with Bitcoin, they kept product market fit from day one. No, that's not fair, I can't say when they had product market fit, but they have product market fit now, it is sound money, censorship-resistant money, fully decentralised. So, anything that comes in that fucks with that, it's like, "Why?"
I've got the list. Firstly, it's alts themselves as a threat, like why do you want an alt? You only need Bitcoin, it's a maximalism; we had block size back in 2017; we've recently had zero-conf as a debate and I've got a lot of empathy towards John Carvalho's position on that, a lot of empathy towards Sergej from Bitrefill; that was a use case that's got removed for whatever reason. And now we have Ordinals. But what's interesting is that this fractures the Bitcoin community around ideas.
Amanda Cavaleri: I think really, deep down, it's like, "What is the market going to decide?", as well. At the same time, there's value in protecting the integrity of the base layer and keeping -- I see both sides of it and that's the hard part, so I'm not trying to be friends with everyone; I don't have the answer either right now. So, I'm just trying to keep track of both sides of this. The way I think of it, Bitcoin compared to alts and fiat for that, I think of it like music in a way.
So in an orchestra, you have the bass, so maybe that's the blockchain, that's the ledger; then you have the open-source technology, we'll make that the triangle; then the cello is maybe the "every ten minutes" tick tock, next block. You've got all of these different aspects, this immaculate conception, maybe that's the horn. All of this to me is like Beethoven's Symphony number 5. Then you look behind the curtain with fiat and alts and this is 2.00am KTV, like 2.00am karaoke, or Nickelback.
Peter McCormack: Nickelback! The first time I ever went to the West Coast, I drove from LA to San Francisco. I got to the Golden Gate Bridge and as I was coming up to the Golden Gate Bridge, Nickelback was playing on the radio and I was like, "I cannot fucking cross the Golden Gate Bridge listening to Nickelback", so I quickly got AC/DC Highway to Hell on; fucking Nickelback!
Amanda Cavaleri: Okay, good. Commercials are better than Nickelback.
Peter McCormack: Jesus, I'd rather have white noise.
Amanda Cavaleri: Sorry. Poor Nickelback.
Peter McCormack: No, I get it. So, on the Ordinals thing…
Danny Knowles: By the way, before that, it is Initial Farm Offering.
Peter McCormack: A what?
Danny Knowles: For like DeFi farming.
Peter McCormack: Initial Farm Offering for DeFi farming? Fuck this shit.
Amanda Cavaleri: It's just really bad timing because DeFi's like a very low-hanging fruit. That's the interesting part about Bitcoin is there are all these other things around it that are emote, so I get the attack vector, speaking of Ordinals, of the attack vector on the policy side with Ordinals could be, if there's stuff that's on the chain, we can come after it now. So, I get that, I completely get that. At the same time, voted Taproot in, so it's kind of a conundrum.
Peter McCormack: I mean, look, for a thicko like me, this is an unintended consequence of Taproot; or people already knew?
Amanda Cavaleri: I don't know.
Peter McCormack: Because why is it only just now that people have figured this out and are debating it?
Amanda Cavaleri: I don't know. Who knows how there's a critical mass of these things behind the scenes as well, right.
Peter McCormack: I mean, the funny thing is, it's one of those things where I haven't really chirped up on it yet, because I was talking about it earlier to Ben Prentice; I kind of don't care, but I am starting to care, in that when I first saw it I was like, "I don't care if people want to put jpegs on Bitcoin. I'm not going to buy them, I think it's stupid, but I don't care". And when I saw somebody say, "Yeah, somebody's paid 9.5 Bitcoin for a Punk", I was like, they probably didn't, they probably sold it to themselves, come on, get a grip.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, just like the previous NFT.
Peter McCormack: Exactly. And then when people are saying, "It's a waste of block space", I was like, "I don't care, I can still get my things in the blocks". But actually, what I really care about Bitcoin, Bitcoin's so simple, right. So, when I explain it to somebody, I steal something that John Pfeffer told me. You know John, right?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: John's a great guy. He told me about the first time he met Wences and how Wences orange pilled him. He said, "Money is a ledger, Bitcoin is the best ledger ever created". And when I explain to people I say, "Bitcoin does one thing really well. It allows you to send value from one person to another. It is very secure, I can send it to you instantly and it's got no middleman". So, I get them to download a wallet and I send them some Bitcoin and it instantly appears and I say to them, "That happened without going through any centralised entity and you hold that Bitcoin. Show me your bank balance, you don't own that. Literally, you've got control of that Bitcoin, no one can take it from you unless you lose your private key. It does that very well".
That's why I think we got product market fit so well because Bitcoin is just so simple and pure in how it does that. When I see this Ordinals thing now, I think it kind of clouds that a little bit. It's like, "Bitcoin does two things really well now. It moves value around and allows us to send jpegs", and a lot of the people defending Ordinals, there are three main defences: free market; all right, fuck off. The second one has been, "It's using up block space, miner rewards have improved", and I'm like, yeah, but that's time preference. And then, what was the third thing? I think it's just an opportunity for people who aren't maximalists to poke the maximalist bear, to go, "Ha-ha, we've got Taproot Wizards, we've got this, fuck you, we can do what we want with it. I know you hate it, so we like it". It's becoming a troll-y thing.
Amanda Cavaleri: Maybe, but I think it's also, this is an open-source technology and if the rules exist to do something, then exploring that, we're explorers and innovators, so it's hard to say, "No, don't do this".
Peter McCormack: It's not a "no", it's just, "This is such a shame, what a distraction".
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, it's interesting, it's tough. I'm glad I've been distracted by Nostr! I literally started using that about the week the Ordinals thing lit and I'm like, "What are Ordinals?"
Peter McCormack: I signed up to Nostr today.
Amanda Cavaleri: Congrats. Are you going to Nostrica?
Peter McCormack: What the fuck's Nostrica?
Amanda Cavaleri: You should go. It's I think March, the 18th or 19th through 21st in Uvita, Costa Rica. Okay, this is a crazy story. So, speaking of inner journeys, I've done a lot of self-work this year and I think that's been really nice, it's changed a lot in my life and really grateful to have the bear market to do that. So, I heard this song in April that just really hit home for me and I've been trying to find this song since April and I found the song three weeks ago. The musician is Estas Tonne. And so, I heard this song, sent it to my friends who were there also. I was like, "This is the song!"
I went to go and look at where he's playing next and it's in Uvita, Costa Rica at this place called Awake. So then I'm like, okay, I could go there before New York and go and see the show because it's going to be less than 100 people, when else can I do that? That's pretty amazing. So, I then signed up for Nostr after I'd already bought the tickets to the show. Turns out Nostrica is something that is being put on by Nostr folks, and Jack Dorsey's been really behind Nostr, so he's helping with it, at Uvita, Costa Rica at Awake, literally the same place I just went to a concert at, out of the blue. So I was like, now I have to go.
Peter McCormack: What are the dates?
Danny Knowles: Let's have a look.
Peter McCormack: This is right at the crucial part of the season.
Amanda Cavaleri: I know, but it's so good.
Danny Knowles: 19 to 21 March.
Peter McCormack: Who have we got on the Saturday?
Amanda Cavaleri: I got you!
Peter McCormack: Look, first football, then freedom, okay? I've got to get my priorities right! I've always wanted to go to Costa Rica. Where in Costa Rica is it; is it near a major airport?
Amanda Cavaleri: I think you can take a regional flight in. So, flying so San Juan, and then take a regional. Or they have shuttles.
Peter McCormack: It's an away game on the Saturday.
Danny Knowles: Northampton Sileby on the 21st.
Peter McCormack: Away?
Danny Knowles: That's on the Tuesday though, so you'd have to come back early.
Peter McCormack: Who have we got on the Saturday?
Danny Knowles: Rushden & Higham.
Peter McCormack: That's away?
Danny Knowles: It is.
Peter McCormack: So, I could miss the Rushden game. When are you going; are you going on the Saturday?
Amanda Cavaleri: I'm going a couple of days early and probably staying a couple of days late.
Peter McCormack: So, I could go on the Friday, but I need to get back to that Sileby game. I'd be tempted. If you're going as well?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: Let me definitely think about that.
Amanda Cavaleri: I mean, the reason also, there's something called Bitcoin Jungle, have you heard of this?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I have.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, so that's in Uvita.
Peter McCormack: Hold on, didn't those guys reach out to us?
Danny Knowles: I don't know, I don't know anything about that.
Amanda Cavaleri: They're cool.
Danny Knowles: I've never heard of that.
Amanda Cavaleri: So, I got to hang out with them, because one of the owners of Awake is one of us. So, it's cool, I got to spend a little time with them while I was out there and I got to pay using Lightning at a couple of different local restaurants. They did an amazing job.
Peter McCormack: So, what do you make of Nostr?
Amanda Cavaleri: What do I make of it? Okay, this goes back to the algorithms thing, right. So, Twitter, I think part of the divide with Bitcoin has to do with algorithms and more likes for breaking news or controversial tweets. So, Nostr, there's no algorithm yet, which makes it harder to find content that resonates with you, unless you follow people. But at the same time, it's more, I'd say, much more positive, and I feel like there is a momentum behind it that's authentic and sticky. So, I really dig it.
Peter McCormack: I got a little bit lost in it today, didn't I?
Danny Knowles: Yeah, you've been on it a lot.
Peter McCormack: Do you know why I like it? I like it for everything I've hated recently about Twitter. I think Elon Musk has truly fucked up Twitter.
Amanda Cavaleri: I think Twitter was messed up before Elon. Once they started kicking Jack out, I think things changed quite a bit.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, look, it wasn't great before but it was a useful tool for finding interesting conversation and marketing. Whatever people say, it's a great tool for marketing. But I think he's truly fucked it in a number of ways. I got a notification through the other day that my Twitter Blue's been cancelled, and I don't know if they've got rid of Twitter Blue or they've changed it, but my Twitter Blue got cancelled, I don't know why.
When he changed the verify badge, he didn't really think that through, and this is going to sound super-elitist; but there was a really useful thing with the blue verify badge, is that every now and again, you would get followed by someone with a blue verify badge and you'd go, "Oh, who is that? Oh, they're that", then I would reach out to them and say, "Hey, thanks for the follow", and maybe that would end up being an interview. But when he changed it that anyone can get the blue, it just had no meaning, "So, you're just telling me everyone who's paid for it".
Amanda Cavaleri: Scarcity.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it just lost meaning. And that's not to say that other people shouldn't be verified, it was just a useful way of identifying people that there's a reason to connect with them and talk to them about certain things, as a podcast maker. My entire feed now is basically Elon Musk saying stuff, whatever the latest fight of the day is, and then actually people in fights, like fight videos!
Amanda Cavaleri: It's aggression. The algorithms are aggressive.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's super-aggressive. I barely see stuff from -- there's certain people, I just don't see their stuff at all. I feel like I haven't seen Saylor tweet in ages. I don't know if he's tweeting, or whatever reason, but I feel like I don't see it. And then also, when I put stuff out, if I put stuff out about Bitcoin, I'm getting hardly any reach. My reach comes from general things.
So, I sent a tweet about the UFO thing; 1,700 likes. I put a thing about Bitcoin; 50 likes. He's changed so much and I think he's gone in there like a bull in a china shop, fully thinking he can do something better and I think he's actually undone a lot of what -- they've stumbled towards what they've become.
Amanda Cavaleri: Maybe Twitter will have a spiritual awakening and it's going down in its depths so it can rise again.
Peter McCormack: Fuck that.
Amanda Cavaleri: I have no idea, but it definitely has a broken wing.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, but you go on Nostr and it's like, "Oh, great, there's loads of good conversation, this is brilliant".
Amanda Cavaleri: Purple bird, yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's a bit like Twitter's my Joe Rogan now of generic content, and Nostr's my Rabbit Hole Recap, it's my Bitcoin show.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I see that.
Peter McCormack: But I feel there's a lot of UX stuff to sort out, but that's fine.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, it will get there, it's a process. I mean, it's so early for how -- I use, I don't know how to say it exactly, damus.
Peter McCormack: Nostradamus.
Amanda Cavaleri: Nostradamus, thank you. Damus, and that's been a lot better. I used Iris, or something, before and Nostradamus, or damus, is much better.
Peter McCormack: A lot of these historic, decentralised things have looked shit and been shit to use. Pirate Bay was always just a bit fucking shit; pgp, I never even ever figured out how to use; this isn't bad.
Amanda Cavaleri: For how quickly -- I mean, they're doing amazing, their iterations. And then I think the part that I really love is that Jack is sharing his wisdom and lessons learned from Twitter. So, if you look at Jack's feed and his posts, he's saying genuine wisdom and insight he's contributing to this community so we can build something different from Twitter, break the mould.
Peter McCormack: I don't think it will replace Twitter.
Amanda Cavaleri: Different.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. A lot of people won't recognise or care about what's wrong with Twitter, they will just use it.
Amanda Cavaleri: I think the thing that they're looking at doing in the future, if I understand it correctly, is you will only need one Nostr account for whatever account you have on any social media platform. So, Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp, any communication or social app.
Peter McCormack: No KYC.
Amanda Cavaleri: Right, yeah.
Peter McCormack: So, we're getting to the stage where you can have your entire experience online without giving away data.
Amanda Cavaleri: Right, yeah, it's beautiful. So, there was an influx of people from China who were downloading the app as well. I think it's now banned from the WeChat store, but there are ways, you know, there are always ways.
Peter McCormack: Of course it's banned; China bans everything.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, but it was pretty fast, faster than some other things.
Peter McCormack: If you lose your private key and you lost your phone, would you have lost your account and have to start again?
Amanda Cavaleri: I think so.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I'm just wondering what's an easier or better way of doing that.
Amanda Cavaleri: They're doing face ID as well, so maybe that will solve it.
Peter McCormack: Okay. And there's no reason to chop your head off and hold your head in front of a camera, because there's no money involved, right!
Amanda Cavaleri: Well, there's some zaps, sending Lightning.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I pissed somebody off earlier, they were like, "Set me up, I want to zap you, I want to send you 100 sats". I was like, "That's 2 cents, I haven't got the time for this shit", and they got really upset with me! But I think it's really impressive and the fact that, how fucking cool is it of Jack? He could be working on anything; he's right in there with these communities helping.
Amanda Cavaleri: He seems like a really special human, so really grateful to have people like that that aren't just, "I'm done with the world". He's still very optimistic in building.
Peter McCormack: So, what's coming up for you, Amanda?
Amanda Cavaleri: So, you've got the Ski Summit, I should be in South by Southwest, so there's South by Southwest as well; there's that Empower Energy Conference in Houston before, and then Nostrica.
Peter McCormack: I think I'm going to try and go.
Amanda Cavaleri: I think you should, I think it's going to be a really interesting group.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think I could do that and I've always wanted to go to Costa Rica. I might see if my daughter wants to go.
Amanda Cavaleri: Good idea, bring her.
Peter McCormack: When's South by Southwest?
Amanda Cavaleri: I think I'm leaving it a couple of days early to go to Costa Rica.
Peter McCormack: We need a name for the mini Bedford Conference we're doing.
Danny Knowles: Yeah, we do.
Peter McCormack: What shall we call it? South by Bedwest?! Do you want to come to Bedford?
Amanda Cavaleri: When?
Peter McCormack: Probably going to be April.
Danny Knowles: 10 to 15 April is going to be the good stuff.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. So, we've got our final home game of the season, hopefully where we get awarded the winner's trophy; on the Friday night, we're going to have a What Bitcoin Did Live event; and then on the Thursday, it will be all drinks in a bar. I'm trying to buy a bar at the moment. I might have bought a bar, like Pubkey! So, it's like a week of activities, well, four or five days of activity.
Amanda Cavaleri: That's fun.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. Bedford's like the Jackson Hole of England.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I've heard. I've heard it's amazing, the billionaires kicking out the millionaires, then the soccer bums!
Peter McCormack: There won't be a single billionaire in Bedford! Can I try and get you over? I'm going to try and get you over.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, ski season ends the day before!
Peter McCormack: We will try and get you over.
Amanda Cavaleri: One of the things when you're looking at different cultures, the one that I've found the most fascinating and the one that's been the most intimidating to me has been mining. Mining took me a long time to wrap my head around that.
Peter McCormack: What, the fact that a lot of them actually don't have a Bitcoin ideology?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, right.
Peter McCormack: That threw me.
Amanda Cavaleri: So, when you're looking at these different cultures, you have very much profit profit, growth growth; then you have the bitcoiner ideology; then within those, you have different subcategories as well. I would say for me, Amanda Fabiano, I've learned so much from her, she's amazing.
Peter McCormack: Isn't she amazing?
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah. And then Jason Les from Riot is someone I've learned a lot from. I learned a lot from Zach at CleanSpark. I learn a lot from these different people. You also are able to very quickly see how these nodes work together, so you see the kind of more bitcoiner, integrity-based and profitable working together; you see the integrity, but maybe not making it, together; and then the others.
Peter McCormack: Do you know who I absolutely love in mining? Giga Energy. I went to visit them. They're like the early Facebook. They all live in a house together, they all go and build their shit, they're just so rad, they're just a bunch of young dudes, is it Texas A&M guys? Something like that, and they're in their shop welding together these massive rigs, and then they're going out building out these stranded gas places. But they're all in their early 20s. There's this real young, upstart field that's just very cool.
Amanda Cavaleri: There's a lot of fascinating people in this and I think we're going to see, especially in emerging markets, I really hope in South America we see more and in Africa we see more. Those are the places where this mining can be really useful.
Peter McCormack: Gridless, the Gridless guys out in Africa, we need to get out there.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, they would be really good to speak with. There are some folks in South America too.
Peter McCormack: Whereabouts; where's good to go?
Amanda Cavaleri: Hydro.
Peter McCormack: Okay, Paraguay?
Amanda Cavaleri: Paraguay, yeah. I mean, there are some folks that spend some time down there I can connect you with.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, please do, I need to go back, I haven't been for a while. I had a few trips there back in 2018, 2019 I think it was? Because, where the hell was I? I was travelling.
Amanda Cavaleri: Were you in Venezuela?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I did Venezuela.
Amanda Cavaleri: I was like, Peter, are you okay?
Peter McCormack: That's one of my favourite places I've ever been. That was wild!
Amanda Cavaleri: That was wild!
Peter McCormack: We got pulled over by the police, I thought we were in big trouble. They wanted to look on our camera and then they didn't, but that wouldn't have been good. But anyway, I've talked about that a lot. Thank you.
Amanda Cavaleri: Thank you.
Peter McCormack: Lovely to see you always. I really value our friendship actually.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, me too. Peter's looked out after me for many years.
Peter McCormack: Come on, you did the same for me.
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I mean it's cutthroat, man. Sometimes you don't know who's who in the zoo, so thank you.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, well you get friends in this industry, like Danny's one of my best friends in the whole world now, and somebody I met through the job. There's probably nobody in the world I speak to more than Danny actually.
Amanda Cavaleri: Lucky you! That's cool you have each other.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, we chat all the time and we get on really well and that's really cool. And then there's people you meet who are colleagues, but you're a genuine friend I've built up and I really value that, so I'm really glad we met that time and I wish you the best and keep crushing and hopefully we'll come skiing next year, Danny.
Danny Knowles: Definitely, we've got to do that.
Amanda Cavaleri: And I'd love to come to Bedford.
Peter McCormack: Please do!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: I'm making Bedford a thing. Okay, Amanda, where do we want to send people to follow you? On Nostr?
Amanda Cavaleri: I mean, yeah.
Danny Knowles: Are you going to tell us your npub here?!
Peter McCormack: Yeah, follow me, I am n26384z…!
Amanda Cavaleri: Yeah, I guess my Twitter has my Nostr in it.
Peter McCormack: There you go, all right. What's your Twitter?
Amanda Cavaleri: @amanda_cavaleri.
Peter McCormack: Wicked, okay. Thank you. Let's go down to Pubkey.
Danny Knowles: Let's do it.
Peter McCormack: All right, thank you.
Amanda Cavaleri: Thank you.
