WBD491 Audio Transcription

The Power of Decentralisation with Adam Curry

Release date: Wednesday 20th April

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Adam Curry. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

Adam Curry is a DJ, internet entrepreneur, and, along with Dave Winer, the creator of podcasting. In this interview, we discuss Texas and guns, how Bitcoin features in world events, food intelligence and smarter education, as well as the origins, ethos, and future of podcasting.

“When we say Bitcoin fixes this it’s now so clear, it is the only non-corruptible network… you see it right there on the blockchain, you can check it by your own rules everything. That’s really the only thing we have going for us because everything else is under someone else’s control.”

— Adam Curry

Interview Transcription

Adam Curry: I have this great store where I live now, in Fredericksburg, which is about 75 miles west of here, and these guys are, "We're just trying to help stop people smoking", and they have top-notch liquids, they don't have any bullshit, no synthetic stuff, only true nicotine.  I got this vape which, the coil runs an alternating current, so it vibrates so you can set the frequency.  So, it's really hi-tech shit!

Peter McCormack: Are you old-school with tobacco flavour?

Adam Curry: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Really?  That's proper old-school, because I always have like strawberry yoghurt!

Adam Curry: Okay, Brit boy!  You're in Texas here, man, we stick tobacco in our lip!

Peter McCormack: I actually stopped.  I went on holiday to the Caribbean with the kids.  We had a two-week holiday, I took a four-day supply, said to the kids, "After four days, I'm going to stop", and I was dreading that day.  Then one day, I went in the sea with one in my pocket, so then I was down to three days.  I stopped dead, I didn't vape for ten days.  We flew to Miami, the kids flew home, I flew to Texas, I got off the plane, I went straight to --

Adam Curry: Straight to the vape shop!

Peter McCormack: No actually, there was a garage next to my hotel.  I went in there to get a coffee, because --

Adam Curry: And there it was, calling your name, "Peter, Peter, suck on me!"

Peter McCormack: You have this vanilla bean coffee here, which we don't do in the UK, which is totally gross.

Adam Curry: What do you mean, little bean coffee?

Peter McCormack: No, vanilla bean, you know, you get it at the garage, you just pour it yourself.

Adam Curry: Oh, yeah.

Peter McCormack: And for some reason, I love that stuff.  I got it and I went to the counter and there was literally a vape looking at me.  I was like, "Oh, fuck it, I'm going to have one with my coffee, just the one", and then yeah, what was that, eight months ago?

Adam Curry: This is the one you want, that's the good one, that's the good stuff.

Peter McCormack: Jesus, they're weapons.

Danny Knowles: Is that THC?

Adam Curry: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Peter McCormack: Danny would have some of that.  Go, Danny! 

Danny Knowles: It's pretty early!

Peter McCormack: I can't smoke weed, it sends me to a funny place.

Adam Curry: Did it work?

Danny Knowles: Oh yeah.

Adam Curry: It functions.

Peter McCormack: We did try mushrooms for our first time on this trip, well my first time.

Adam Curry: How was it?

Peter McCormack: I loved it.

Adam Curry: Because my wife used to do mushrooms when she was much younger and she said, "Adam, we need to do mushrooms".  So someone gave me, actually my drug dealer who I just met before I came in, he came me these microdose gummies, and I tried one, nothing; I tried two, three, four, five, nothing.  So now, I have to go and get the real mushroom.

Peter McCormack: So, I have a history with drugs, so I keep away from them now, and I'm eight years sober, because I got in a bad way with it.  So, one of our friends here was like, "You've got to try mushrooms".  I was like, "I'm not sure".  Danny was with me, which was good, because I was nervous about it, because you hear about what they're like.

Adam Curry: I'd be very nervous.  I am nervous about doing mushrooms, strangely enough.

Peter McCormack: Well, I thought it would send me into a weird place, because I just know what my mind can do.  And luckily, it was like a retreat.  The friend who took us, his partner, she did a whole session with us, calming us down, relaxing us, telling us we're in a safe place and everything, did it, and it was an amazing experience.  Completely superficial for me, it was cliché colours and shapes.  Because, I didn't know what to expect.  When people talk about hallucinating, I thought, "Do you have your eyes open and just see little green men and shit?"  It wasn't like that.  It was definitely, when you go to the toilet, the wall would kind of --

Adam Curry: It sounds a bit like DMT, which I've done twice, and enjoyed very much, because it fucking ended.  I love when it just -- 30 minutes, you're done.

Peter McCormack: This was about 90 minutes, but it went quick.  But what would happen is, I would go from seeing these colours to then going into a trancelike dream. 

Adam Curry: Excellent!

Peter McCormack: And then, I'd realise I'm dreaming and snap out of it.  And I had three of these different dreams.  One of them, it's so dumb, I got up from the bed we were on and I went to the door and Kanye West was there and he told us --

Adam Curry: As it happens!

Peter McCormack: As it happens.  He was like, "What are you doing in my Airbnb?"  I was like, "Dude, I'm tripping, you need to fuck off", so I went and lay back down.  But I didn't actually get up --

Adam Curry: No, I understand.

Peter McCormack: -- and then I snapped out of it.  So, now I've done it, I understand what it is, and I think I'll do it again.

Adam Curry: You'll do it again?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think I just want to go a little bit deeper.  But Danny, are you happy to talk about it?

Danny Knowles: Yeah.  I mean, I had a complete -- like Pete was seeing Kanye West, and I had a really introspective, asked myself some tough questions.  I loved it, I'd definitely, definitely do it again.

Adam Curry: Yeah, I'm going to do it.  I mean, I've been smoking weed since I was 13.  I grew up in Amsterdam, so this is part of my life, it's part of who I am.  I microdose my way all the way through everything.

Peter McCormack: I can't smoke weed.

Adam Curry: No?

Peter McCormack: No.  Whenever I smoke weed, I enjoy the ritual, I mean I used to enjoy --

Adam Curry: The ritual's great, yeah.

Peter McCormack: But whenever I get stoned, I just get super-paranoid.  I just don't enjoy it.

Adam Curry: Then you should not do it. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's not for me.  I'm really just an alcohol person now, bit of whiskey.  We've got whiskey up there, by the way.  It's a bit early for that, isn't it?

Danny Knowles: It's 10.00am!

Peter McCormack: Actually, we did that before.

Adam Curry: That's a little bit early for me.

Peter McCormack: A little bit early!  Yeah, so this band here, they're called The Ghost Inside, they're from LA.  They're a screaming hardcore metal band, and most of these bands struggle.  They spend their entire career sharing a little minibus, driving around, make enough money from show to show.

Adam Curry: No shit, I know it well.

Peter McCormack: Well, they're one of the few that broke out.  And when they released, I think it was their fourth album, it went to something like number 30 in the Billboard.  But for a band that side, that's incredible.

Adam Curry: That is quite incredible.

Peter McCormack: So, they go on tour, they're in Lubbock, Texas, they set off for the next one, middle of the night.  The bus hits an 18-wheeler head on, the driver of the bus was killed, the drummer lost his leg, the singer was in a coma for a month.

Adam Curry: Holy shit!

Peter McCormack: And they're ripped to shreds.  They were in hospital for ages.  They spent four years in rehab and the drummer, his dad figured out a way of making a drumkit with one leg.

Adam Curry: That's kind of a Def Leppard story, except with the arm.

Peter McCormack: It is.

Adam Curry: I know Rick very well, Savage.

Peter McCormack: Well, I think he reached out to him to send his support.  He had a few people reach out to him actually.  But they figured out this drumkit.  They have this thing called The Hammer, so his stump could hit it, and he's a double bass drummer.

Adam Curry: Sure, yeah.  Speed metal's what you want, yeah, like a trigger.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, a trigger, they had a trigger.

Adam Curry: Yeah, that's exactly what Rick did, a trigger.

Peter McCormack: With lasers, yeah.

Adam Curry: Oh no.  He just hit the pads and stuff.

Peter McCormack: And then they figured a way of getting the whole band to start playing again, and they're like, "Can we do a show?"  And so, they spent four years trying to get back together and they eventually booked The Shrine in LA, which I think holds about 3,000.

Adam Curry: That's big, yeah.

Peter McCormack: It sold out in two minutes.  So, what they did is they moved it out to the car park, again sold all the rest of the tickets, and they played a show for 8,000 people.  I don't know what it was, I was like, "I need to be at this show".  So, I just booked a flight, went out and did some interviews, went to the show; and then afterwards, my friend, Tom, he reached out to them and said, "Pete loves your story, can you make a show about it?"  So, we made a four-show podcast about it, and it's really just an unbelievable story what they went through.

Adam Curry: You've got to send me a link to that.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we'll send you that.  But they're back touring.  So, Brixton, we were talking about it, they're playing Brixton.  They booked Brixton -- so, this is what was unfair for them.  They got back, they played that show, ready to tour, COVID hits, everything shuts down.

Adam Curry: Of course, yeah.

Peter McCormack: So, they had the Brixton show booked, that got put back, got put back again, but it's on this June.  So, they're playing this June and then, I think they're headlining the second stage at Donington.

Adam Curry: Oh, Donington, one time, it was nice.

Peter McCormack: You went?  Which one?

Adam Curry: Oh, fuck. 

Peter McCormack: Can you remember anyone who played?

Adam Curry: No.  If you remember Donington, did you do it right?!

Peter McCormack: So, there was one year I went.  I had the Reading Festival booked, and then they booked Donington the same weekend.  And I was really into this band called Biohazard, and they were playing Donington, so I was like, "Well, I've got to fucking be there".  So, I was at Reading --

Adam Curry: Why do I think Iron Maiden was there?

Peter McCormack: I mean, they played a lot of them.  I think it was Kiss headlined this one.  No, it was Aerosmith.  So, I got the bus from Reading to Donington, did the Donington show, then came back.  And that was the year, I think it was Pantera played and Sepultura.  Anyway…  But yeah, so this band, they're playing Brixton in June and I'm going to go with my daughter.

Adam Curry: Well, you're quite the fan, obviously.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Adam Curry: You've marked yourself with them.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, one of them, the bassist, might even be listening to this, Jim Riley, he's a good guy.  Anyway, how are you doing, man?  Good to see you.

Adam Curry: I'm doing good.  Have we started?

Peter McCormack: I mean, we started ten minutes ago!

Adam Curry: Welcome back to Texas, brother, how about that!

Peter McCormack: Thank you, thank you.

Adam Curry: You're doing it right, you're real Texas, you've got the California-plate Mustang in the driveway --

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we've got that.

Adam Curry: -- which shows you're a dickhead.  I mean, that's what we think here when we're in Austin, "Oh, another Californian"!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I love it, because we don't get muscle cars like that in the UK.  Actually, there is a Mustang now in the UK, but it's not the same.

Adam Curry: Have you seen the new Corvette, the mid-engine Corvette?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's ridiculous!

Adam Curry: My wife's like, "Flying car before you get that"!

Peter McCormack: This is Danny's first time to Texas.

Danny Knowles: First time in Austin.

Adam Curry: Enjoying?

Danny Knowles: Loving it, yeah.  I've still not got my bearings.

Adam Curry: Have you just been in the Airbnb the whole time?!

Danny Knowles: Pretty much!

Peter McCormack: No, we've been to dinner.  We've been to III Forks a couple of times and had a steak.

Adam Curry: Okay, all right.

Danny Knowles: Where did we go on Saturday?

Peter McCormack: Did we have a barbecue on Saturday?

Danny Knowles: No, that restaurant we went to.

Peter McCormack: Remind me, walk me back, who was there?

Danny Knowles: With Dan and Darren.

Peter McCormack: Oh, God, Eddie V's.

Adam Curry: Eddie V's, they're good.  If you like that kind of restaurant, I'd recommend Truluck's.  In fact, a lot of Eddie V's guys went to Truluck's, or maybe it was the other way around, I can't remember, but that's in that general neighbourhood.  But really, we have so many cool, little places all around.  South Congress has changed very much probably since the last time you were here.  Now we have Soho House and other bullcrap, which is unfortunate. 

We left, my wife and I left about eight or nine months ago.  We were in Southeast Austin, we liked it very much, but we went through some shit here first of all with COVID.  All the homeless were everywhere, this already started before that.  There was just no direction for the city.  And then, we had our Snowmageddon here, where we lost power, and we were out for five days.  What's interesting is I-35 divides East and West Austin, and there's a lot of what we call Section 8 housing in East Austin, also near where we were, even though we had a new home, and that's for poor people, working poor really.

The first electricity to get turned off was all the Section 8 housing, including ours, we're on the same segment, and you could literally see the glow of the west side where the east side was turned off.  It was very obvious what was going on.

Peter McCormack: It sounds a little bit like what happened in New Orleans.

Adam Curry: It probably happens everywhere, if you think about it.  We were saying -- I'm 57, my wife's the same age, "Let's go out", and there's this wonderful town called Fredericksburg, which is about 80 miles from here west, very famous if you're going to get married; that's a good place.  Or, it's where we have the hen parties, but it's real old school.  We have butchers, bakers, etc.  And, we're pretty much off the grid.  I mean, we do get electricity from the Central Electric Coop, but we have our own whole-house generator.

I was just explaining, I'm building a gasifier.  This was big in the Great Depression, where with wood in a furnace, and you have a furnace and a number of tubes out the other end, and you just put wood in this furnace, or zombies, anything that will burn, out comes something called syngas, and you can literally put that right into the carburettor of a gas-powered engine and it will run.

So, propane right now just went up to $3.20 a gallon.  For us, okay, we can afford it, but it's really expensive.  What if it just becomes unavailable?  I have a lot of wood, and I can just keep throwing my wood in and everything will function.  We have a well, we have an aerobic septic system, which basically works just like a water clean facility, so out the other end shoots, literally from sprays all over my garden, clean water, after I've done all my business.  So, I'm ready.

Peter McCormack: You're off grid!

Adam Curry: And I have an S9 miner.

Peter McCormack: I was going to say, it sounds like you're off grid.

Adam Curry: Pretty much, or at least ready for it.  I like having the grid, it's there, and there's some cool guys who run this outfit called Nexstream.  They're a wireless ISP, they also have 400 miles of dark fibre all around the hill country, their own interconnects, they don't do anything with any of the other backhaul guys, so they're connecting me up to fibre with the backup of the wireless internet service provider.  So, we should be good.

Peter McCormack: Have you got bullets?

Adam Curry: Dude!

Peter McCormack: You've got to remember, I'm from the UK.  We defend ourselves with a fork and a spoon!

Adam Curry: I remember when Bobbies just had a stick.  It's not that way anymore in London.

Peter McCormack: I've only shot a gun three times.

Adam Curry: Oh, dude, well if you had time, we can always hook up, because there's so much to do when it comes to that in Texas.  But yeah, I'd never owned a gun before I lived in Texas.  It's really a part of our life, and obviously that can be used for food supply, would be probably my main reason.  But you don't know when the zombie apocalypse comes.  So yeah, even my wife also has a handgun, we carry then in the car.  I don't carry on my person; you can legally here.  That's not for me.  It feels like I'd probably get in a rage!

Peter McCormack: It would be one of those things where if I got one, I'd get 20.

Adam Curry: Well, this is the problem, they're really cool, you go out shooting with your buddies.  I'm not a hunter either, I don't like killing stuff.  It's like, "Oh, let me see this, I've got an AR pistol, I've got this", and yeah, because they're reasonably affordable, in the $200 range, you can get something pretty nice, it becomes fun, it really does.

Peter McCormack: It's become a topic that we talk about on the show, because obviously I come out to Texas a lot, or I come out to the US a lot, and if I lived here, I would absolutely get a gun, I have no issue with them.  But I would never want to change the laws in the UK.  If there was a referendum on bringing in guns, I would just --

Adam Curry: It's not the culture.  It's as stupid personally to me and Austin implementing bike paths.  I grew up in Amsterdam, so bicycle traffic is very integrated with everything else and it flows.  People are riding without their hands on the handlebar, with the dog trotting next to them, with the kid on the back, on the front, grocery baskets, on their cell phone.  They can do anything, and it just works.  But that's hundreds of years of integration of that traffic. 

You can't just say, "Here's a line.  Car, don't cross it; bikes, you're good to go", and then have the bicyclists act like they're God; no.  It's just stupid, you can't do that.  And probably more people will die in Austin on their bike than people will die in the UK of gunshot, probably, because you guys have got knives, you're big on sticking each other.  That's a cool thing like, "Fuck, I'm gonna stick you, motherfucker!"

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but that knife thing, people talk about, they say, "Well, you need guns because of the knife crime", but the knife crime really is predominantly gang crime.

Adam Curry: Of course.  But what do you think gun crime is?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but I think there's a slight difference here, someone can lose their shit in certain scenarios and go out and shoot people, shoot themselves, shoot their family.

Adam Curry: That's what always makes the news.  But there's lots of stuff that happens when someone loses their shit, and they kill people one way or the other.

Peter McCormack: No, of course, but what I'm saying is, if anyone said to me there was a no-go zone in London, I'd probably say I'd probably go there.  I don't feel like we have those places you can't go, and you very rarely hear about an innocent person being stabbed.  To me, it's not a reason to bring in guns that some people think we should.

Adam Curry: But the real thing about the USA and guns is what you're seeing right now.  There are limitations to what our government will do.  They are afraid of us, and they should be; that's the ultimate point.

Peter McCormack: We had Cody Wilson on recently.  He made a really interesting point with this.

Adam Curry: The 3D gun guy?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, the 3D gun guy.

Adam Curry: Which he's now doing more.

Peter McCormack: He's a really, really smart guy, real deep thinker, really liked him actually.

Adam Curry: He's all about the First Amendment.

Peter McCormack: He is, but he said -- a lot of people talk about guns in the US, and I won't get him exactly right, but he says, "There's a chance to defend yourself against a gunman".  But he said, "We had the chance with COVID and it didn't happen".

Adam Curry: Correct, and I think you still need to push the American people to a certain point, and it still remains, no country will invade us for this very reason.  I mean, it would be crazy.  It's interesting to see now with Ukraine where we, literally America, is dumping guns in big crates, which of course is mainly being picked up by gangs, and let's make no mistake what Ukraine is, because I grew up in Europe, we all know what comes from Ukraine, we all know what's going on there; not to say there aren't lovely people, of course, it's the same everywhere.

But now look at them, they're defending their own country with guns.  Yet, "America, get rid of your guns".  It's a very weird type of hypocrisy.

Peter McCormack: I think the other thing is, the US has this kind of split culture, a very divided --

Adam Curry: Incredibly split right now, in many directions, yeah.

Peter McCormack: When I go to LA or New York, it's a very different experience when I go to Texas or Florida or Wyoming.  And I think there's very few things which are similar, apart from the accent maybe and the language.  But they're very different cultures.  I feel like it's very European when you're in New York and LA, and when you're here it's very traditional American culture.  But I like each for different reasons.  But I think it's different cultures trying to assert their cultures between states, and that doesn't work. 

It's like trying to exert a certain culture internationally, trying to force democracy in the Middle East when it's not ready.  You always see these failures of exerting cultures from one group to another, it just never works.

Adam Curry: Well, this is the globalist agenda.  Look at what happened to Europe in the past 20 years.  They have just pushed migrants into Europe, and that has created incredible -- the Netherlands was the friendliest, most open place ever.  Now, my daughter couldn't hold hands with her partner walking past certain streets of Rotterdam.

Peter McCormack: Really?

Adam Curry: Yes, because they would spit on her, because it was two girls holding hands.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay, yeah.

Adam Curry: You couldn't think of this happening in the Netherlands.  This is all the globalist agenda, let's just push everyone together, force everybody, then use identity politics to create what is now called equity.  So, we have a ranking system no longer based on the traditional meritocracy, and this is very prevalent here now in the United States, and it's bad, it's very, very bad.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and I also think it's kind of tricky, because I totally see what you're saying about your daughter is terrible as well.  But I live in the UK, not only the UK, Bedford, and Bedford is one of the most multicultural places in the UK, and the UK is very multicultural, and there's been a lot of upsides to that, a lot of good sides.

I have not seen any issues with -- the only issue I saw in Bedford with a big push, when we became part of the EU and there was free movement of people in the EU, it put a lot of pressure on traditional jobs like electricians and plumbers, because people would come in from Eastern Europe who would charge a lot less.  But there was also a thing where the service got raised up, because what you had was people coming in at a lower price, willing to work longer hours.  There's a history, especially with builders in the UK, traditionally having poor service, not knowing who you could deal with.

Adam Curry: Well, they have to break for some builders' tea!

Peter McCormack: Well, yeah, but I think overall it was a good thing, it actually did benefit.  But I went to Turkey during the migrant crisis, where basically Erdoğan was fed up because of 4.5 million migrants.

Adam Curry: Yeah, and he sent everybody on.

Peter McCormack: He sent everyone to the border, he felt that Europe should deal with it.  I essentially smuggled myself into a migrant camp, went around and spoke to a lot of different people.  And I felt it was tricky, because not only had I met economic migrants, who had left Africa because there was no opportunity; but also, there were migrants leaving Afghanistan and Syria, they'd come across the border from Syria because they were in a fucking war zone.

So, I empathised with what they were trying to do, because I also then was empathising with people on the Greek side, where they were seeing destruction of properties and vineyards on the border.  I felt like, if you're going to bring migrants in, you need an integration plan, and that hadn't been dealt with in the right way.

Adam Curry: Well, exactly.  I'm all for people seeking their fortune in other countries, I've done it myself multiple times, multiple countries.  I'm all for people coming to the United States, seeking their fortune for what I still consider the American Dream, and if you work just as hard.  But that's kind of the problem here, is exactly what you were saying.  We're now to a level within the United States where it doesn't really matter if you work just as hard, you will advance because of your identity, you will advance because of your skin colour, because of your religion, because of your sexuality.  This is not the concept here.

Then, when people are forced, you have to have -- I know all about the migrant camps in the Netherlands, it's a mess.  It just really doesn't make the world stage, and you're putting people in camps.  This is not integration, you're ghettoising parts of cities; this is not integration.  But that is the agenda right now.  Our border, I mean you can walk right across, you can come right in.  I think it's had 2 million people in the last year.  That's a lot of people who just come in and somehow get swallowed into whatever, in the economy, or maybe into social services.

Peter McCormack: Why do you think this agenda exists?   

Adam Curry: Because they don't care about us and they would like more of us to die, as far as I'm concerned.  They just don't give a shit.

Peter McCormack: Is it liberal policies that don't consider the consequences?

Adam Curry: That's the tool, that's just the tool.  To me, everything is financial; everything that's going on we're seeing now, everything is financial.  We have a war, we're distracted by the kinetics on the ground in Ukraine, because that's what we're being shown and programmed with.  If we showed Somali children being killed all day, I think we would feel the same way and we'd be just as upset, or Haitian children or Yemeni children, or I can go on and on and on.  But that's not the programming right now.

Lots of things are happening while this is taking place.  There's still all kinds of vaccination passport things being set up, there's still all kinds of data being not reported on of things that maybe should be known to the general public, certainly with big pharma.  And what is really going on is a networks war, because the whole world is now networked.  So, Russia, you're cancelled and you're cancelled from all the financials; not all, but I'm generalising.

Peter McCormack: Isn't it incredible that a whole country can be cancelled?

Adam Curry: I went on Google Maps this morning and it just said, "404 not found" in that whole area of Russia!"  We really need to look closely at what's going on.  So, if Russia pulls out of Ukraine, does SWIFT get turned on again for them?  I'll bet you that's not in the plan.  Now, Russia has their own networks, they have gas pipelines, which coincidentally go through Ukraine; you wonder if that has anything to do with it at all.  They can turn stuff off, they can reverse the flow, they can do all kinds of things.  We have social networks we can get kicked off of, we have energy, electricity, because energy and electricity are two separate kinds of networks; all of these networks, and we really don't control any of them.

So today, Elon Musk is giving away free charging to everyone in a Tesla who needs it in the Ukraine region.  Tomorrow, he could turn them off in Russia, he could literally turn off the Teslas so they don't run.  This is the problem.  So, when we say, "Bitcoin fixes this", that's exactly it, it is so clear.  It is the only non-corruptible network, it is the only one you can really completely trust, because of the verification.  That does give you a trust, even though we're not supposed to trust, but you see it right there on the blockchain.  You can check it by your own rules, everything.  That's really the only thing we have going for us, because everything else is under someone else's control.  And of course, there's ActivityPub and there's some other things that are growing quite nicely on the internet that circumvent all of this.

Peter McCormack: Well, Danny, you made the point earlier that the most interesting part of the Ukraine/Russia war was with regards to Bitcoin.

Danny Knowles: It works for both sides, it's crazy.

Adam Curry: It does, of course it does, as it should.

Danny Knowles: But it's so powerful, though.  I mean, we all knew it had no political lines, but now everyone knows that there is no politics in Bitcoin, it's for everyone, and I think that's so cool.

Peter McCormack: Something I wanted to talk to you about was truth-finding, because we had Scott Horton on the other day to talk about it, very anti-war, very anti-American globalist policies, and someone that's very hard to factcheck live because he's a brain-dump of information and history.  And, the show goes out and hundreds of great comments of YouTube, "Thank you for having him on".  But also, people coming back and saying, "You need to be careful with Scott.  You can't blame everything on international policies", etc.

As somebody who's very quick to jump to an opinion on things, I kind of came to this recent conclusion on it all, that actually both sides are bad, and do you know what's great?  The Ukrainians suffering, we can send them Bitcoin; and the Russians who are suffering, we can send them Bitcoin.  That's the most important thing, because all this bullshit is controlled by a few psychopaths and hundreds of millions of people are suffering; and us, as the people who understand and support Bitcoin, we can just help them out. 

I think that's one of the most interesting things that's happened over the last two years.  Whatever big story's out there, whether it's inflation, whether it's a dollarised country trying to protect themselves, whether it's Canadian truckers trying to protest, whether it's a country under attack or a country being the aggressor and then being cancelled, there is a Bitcoin angle to every single major global story now.

Adam Curry: There is.  Now, Bitcoin is not big enough for the global oil markets.

Peter McCormack: Yet.

Adam Curry: Exactly, not yet.  It feels very interesting to see, again, the financial system is broken, that's so obvious to me.  I mean, just look at inflation, it's at 7.9%, the ten-year bond yield is 2%.

Peter McCormack: The lowest possible inflation rate.

Adam Curry: Oh yeah, with total horsecrap, total bullcrap numbers they change all the time.  Well, instead of steak, you're just eating ground chuck, and it's the same price.  Go figure, you're just as good!  But we've seen these events, and I'm very, very sceptical about the severity of COVID, and I've just got to speak this way and just take the human element out of it.  I'm a very compassionate man, but the people who died, yes, a lot of people died, a lot of people die.  I think the severity of where certain measures were taken to was a part of keeping the economy as closed as possible, because of the balance sheet issues all central banks have.  They're in real, real deep problem, and now they don't trust each other. 

I'm not an expert on it, but I've really tried to do as much understanding as I can of how it works with these reverse repo markets, which used to be, if you went to the Fed discount window, was what we called it, that was a shame and your bank was shamed for that.  Now, it's not just an overnight loan of $100 billion or $200 billion or $700 billion, now it's two weeks or a month, so there's clearly something wrong.  It is my opinion that they need to keep slowing down the economy without raising interest rates.  They're going to have to, I think, tomorrow whatever, they're going to raise something, otherwise the whole thing just falls apart.

Peter McCormack: There's too much debt in the system.

Adam Curry: There's only debt in the system.  And just as we're coming out of COVID, just as we're learning a number of things about how things operated, long-term effects of lockdown, long-term effects of children with mask-wearing, how did the schools really perform; we all know the answers.  No one really did great in any of this.  That's starting to come, then America pushed, pushed, pushed Putin, pushed him.  We had Zelenskyy go on the stage and say, "I'm going to get nukes in here", at the Munich Security Conference.

I really, truly think America's culpable on this.  We pushed this.  Okay, boom, we have something.  I can see the migratory issue, the refugees, of course I see this and that's the crisis.  That is a huge crisis that we have not -- if it's really 2 million people, this is the biggest story of the decade, how much work has to be done.  I'm not hearing that.  What I'm hearing is news here in the US using it, now it's all political, now it's because of Trump and Trump loves Putin and all the Republicans love Putin.  And whatever you say, you don't have to be anti-Russia, but you have to call Putin evil.

So, this is now political, which means they're not serious.  This is about politics, and that really pisses me off, because I can't really know what's going on, boots on the ground.  I hear that there's nothing but aerosols, but I don't see it, I see rubble.  We know that Kharkiv, which sounds like Kyiv, "Somewhere over there, I guess", it's really on the eastern border; that has been going on for eight years.  So, is this rubble shot from today, from three weeks ago, I don't know?  So, we're not being given any real information.

Meanwhile, look at the real weapons of war that they are applying.  And, if they can take away some Russian oligarch, who lives in the UK, can take away his football club, confiscate his plane, confiscate his boat, confiscate his houses, who's next?  That's what you've got to worry about.  It's going to be the podcasters next.  It's insane, and we're all like, "Yeah, go get the motherfucker!"  No, this is illegal, it's not according to any law.

Peter McCormack: Well, there's a couple of good points on there.  I mean, when you talk about Roman Abramovich and taking away his football club --

Adam Curry: Well, they didn't take it away, but you know what I mean.  Pressure, pressure.

Peter McCormack: He tried to sell it, and I think the really tricky thing with Roman Abramovich, allegedly, because he's not been convicted, he has quite a criminal past.  He is an oligarch.

Adam Curry: So does the Biden family!

Peter McCormack: I know, and we can come to that, but the oligarchs pillaged the Russian state, and it's essentially a Mafia.  But we, as the UK, we welcomed the oligarchs into London, we allowed them to buy football clubs, knowing full well their history, and now at the point where we're upset with Putin, we now confiscate everything.  So, there's a hypocrisy there and a chain of events that doesn't work.

What actually should have happened, because if you believe he's a criminal and a money-launderer, then prosecute him, prosecute him at the time.  Don't welcome him just because he's there to spend money.  I mean, I'm not going to defend Roman Abramovich, because he pillaged the Russian state and all the oligarchs did, and they took away the resources and the money from the Russian people, and I don't support that.  But I also, at the same time say, you can't have it both ways.  You can't enable it at the time because you want to tax him and sell him property.

Adam Curry: But let's just talk about the basic concept of the Rule of Law, that's how we're supposed to live.  You've got the Magna Carta, which is fuzzy in some areas.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, very.

Adam Curry: So, we took that and did a 2.0 version and did a freedom of speech and religion and right to bear arms, and Rule of Law, a country ruled by law, not by men.  And, we've really lost the plot on that here.  What's interesting is, we'll just write new laws, or issue an executive order, which is of limited lifetime, because no president is in more than eight years, and they usually switch around.  But this willy-nilly -- that's my favourite phrase of the week -- this willy-nilly business, that's got to have people terrified, if you intellectually think about what's going on. 

I'm telling you, Elon Musk shutting off the Teslas in Russia, it's completely thinkable he would do that.  And most people would not think twice about the fact that he can do that, "Yeah, that's great.  Freeze them!"  Ultimately, Peter, I know lots of Russian people, I've been to Moscow, both here and in Russia.  I know Ukrainian people, I know British people.  I mean, never, but with today's communication, do you really harbour any animosity towards any group of people, any country?  Of course not, and I don't think --

Peter McCormack: Tottenham supporters!  That's about it.

Adam Curry: Valid!  But that's my point.  What is the point?  Okay, so we've been told, and there's no other history to it, there's no 2014 Mydon, the same people, Victoria Newland, back then John McCain, Lindsey Graham, all of these people, John Brennan, CIA, they were just coincidentally there for the coup, and recorded on phone discussing who they were going to put in the government to glue this together.  We have to forget all that and just see these horrible atrocities, and that's all we care about and we need to just focus on that, because that's what we're being told to do.  That's so short-sighted.

Peter McCormack: I know, and these sanctions.  I mean, I have limited experience, understanding, but my history and understanding of sanctions, whether it's what's happening now with Russia, what's happened with Venezuela, what happened with Iran, is they never really affect the -- they take some power away from the people in charge, but they never take away domestic power, it's only international power.  But what it does is decimates the opportunity for the civilians of that country, the 140 million people in Russia.

Adam Curry: And so, here we are.  And what's happening in Texas is a great example of this.  I don't know if you've heard of the Beef Initiative?

Peter McCormack: No, tell me.

Adam Curry: So, first of all, let me just tell you what I'm doing.  Anyone who's millennial, older millennial, I am here to mentor, help, do anything I can to make your life better, because I think my generation fucked up.  And, I wasn't paying attention who was in City Council, or who was on the school board.  Those were just losers who couldn't get a better gig.  And I was having a party, 1980s, 1990s, making money, having a good time, family.

Then you wake up one day and you're like, "Holy crap, what is going on in our cities?  What is going on in our schools?  How political is this?  How many people do you need to run something this poorly?"  So, this needs to be changed.  I do not think that we can fix finance, education, medicine, well those are the key ones, security; I don't think we can fix those with the current institutions.  They have to collapse into themselves. 

That's starting to happen.  You're seeing the CDC, which only two years ago was the gold standard of communicating to the American people about health issues; they really weren't prepared, they don't know how to do this, it's not the right agency, because a lot of fuck-ups happened, a lot of bad advice, a lot of advice based on data that was dodgy that they're now admitting to.  So no one will get in trouble, the faceless CDC is going to collapse, and they'll create something new.

What is happening is, in a way, the globalists are going further in globalisation, we're deglobalising.  We're creating our own networks, and by that simple form, ActivityPub, Mastodon, our social networks, we've shored that up and that will continue.  The true freedom of speech, the ability to just say what you want and have people hear it uninterrupted, that's podcasting.  My job is to protect podcasting.

Peter McCormack: Thank you, by the way.

Adam Curry: Thank you.  We can get into what that means, because we have had to do some work, and still have some work to do.  There are guys my age coming out of retirement, like Texas Slim, who was sixth generation, way up north, and he says, "Our children are eating shit", as we munch on our Starbucks, he says! 

He has developed a concept called Food Intelligence, and he is an analyst, and he has quite a background in this.  But he also has been a rancher with his family for all these generations.  And he has seen and knows, there's only a few processors who process beef, animal protein, let's put it that way.  And they are all moving towards soy and other vegetable or plant-based fake meat protein, and it's much more efficient, it's the plan, I can prove it to you, everyone's moving in this direction.  Ultimately with climate change, green initiatives, they will make beef --

Peter McCormack: The enemy.

Adam Curry: Not just the enemy, but also unaffordable.  And I believe it's to keep us just well enough to keep functioning.  And it will be monitored all the way from the source of the food, all smart monitors, carbon credit calculations, how much you should really pay for it, how much you consumed of it, all these things are going to be connected, because that's really what they want, this is the technocracy.

Peter McCormack: Let me just tell you, before you start that.  I spent two years as a vegan and I've got a really interesting perspective on it.  What happened was, my mum got cancer and she researched every single thing to do, and she cut out sugar, meat and alcohol, and that was just something she read and she got super-healthy, and so I went vegan with her.  But at the time, it was the time my company collapsed, so I took a year off work, and I would source all my veg and I would cook everything and I got in great shape.  I was very, very healthy.

Then I went back to work, and I started moving from cooking all my fresh own meals to having substitute meats, sandwiches, pastas, and I essentially got ill, I was tired all the time, headaches.  So, I went back to eating meat and I was fine.  I'm not anti-vegan, I think you can do it if you have time to prep and look after your meals, and I fully support anyone who wants to do it; but the substitutes are terrible.

Adam Curry: They are, and they're very bad for you and they're filled with all -- I mean, DSM, Royal DSM in the Netherlands, used to be a chemical company when I was growing up.  They are now the world's largest producer of soy and plant-based protein products for colour, taste and texture.  It's all fake, it's all phony.  So of course, in principle, I agree with this and Slim was saying, "Look, you've even got to back to the source of the seed of the grass to get the right stuff that you need for your body", and he's just a believer in animal protein. 

I said, "Look, can you show me something compelling; what really will show me that I should be eating beef really straight from my rancher?"  He says, "Look at these pictures.  This is my family, this is my family throughout the years.  Texas is not a great place to grow vegetables, but we get by.  These people have been living for six generations on animal protein.  How do they look?"  And he says, "Now look at a picture of some people from Houston, some people from Dallas, people from Austin; obese".  He says, "Of course, you need to stop drinking pure sugar from McDonald's, but when you go to pure animal protein, it just works very well with our bodies", and that was very convincing for me. 

So, what he has set up and continues to set up, is networks, and this is what we have to do; networks, just like Mastodon, it's open source.  One thing is starting to bind us all, and that's Bitcoin, because that's a network everyone understands.  You don't have to speak the same language, but you speak Bitcoin, I'm good with you.  I already know who you are, I know what you're thinking, I know enough about you.  So now, ranchers are accepting Bitcoin in payment from people directly, they're setting up their own processing centres.  Texas is unique, you can actually do that, you can process without the US DA getting involved, if it's your own product, and now we're putting together distribution. 

So, we will have food for people who are in the network and who can find us, that will be available, because it's going to become unaffordable; it's on its way very quickly.  Education, the same thing.  We have many new small schools, people are grouping together, they're finding each other online.

Peter McCormack: What the fuck is going on with education here in the US?  I'm following Libs of TikTok on Twitter --

Adam Curry: The same thing with health.

Peter McCormack: Is that making it look like the problem's worse than it is, or is there a crisis in education, because all I'm seeing is all this stuff about gender and sexuality being taught to kids.  I know what my kids are being taught, they have to do sex education, but it's one small part of a biology class.  But I want my kids taught maths, science, history, geography, and it seems to be --

Adam Curry: Reading, writing, arithmetic.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  And I think sexuality and those things are taught in the home.  But there seems to be a real push to teach these things.

Adam Curry: This is what we were talking about earlier.  They want everyone to be an identity and then, instead of meritocracy, you get equity, so everyone always goes to the next grade; but the students who look a certain way, believe a certain way, love a certain way, they will have certain privileges over others, or not.  It could go either way, but it's based upon your identity; this is what they've been putting in there.

Peter McCormack: But do you think it's malicious or incompetent?

Adam Curry: It's completely malicious and it comes from the money.  The same with the pharmaceutical industry.  The big universities that teach, all of them, they have endowments and they come with strings attached, "Here is $2 billion from the Oppenheimers [or] from the Rockefellers", or whatever you want, whatever big, rich family, the Rothschilds, you name it, or even the royal family of the Netherlands, it doesn't matter; someone with a lot of dough who has an agenda.  And the agenda is always the same.

So, "We're going to give you this, but you can only use this to hire people to do critical race theory [or] only talk about diagnosing and prescribing pharmaceuticals.  No money for alternative medicines, no money for different types of education, it has to be this curriculum", and that goes into the universities and it's everywhere.  And the universities teach this and then now we're at the point where these university students, over the past 20 years, they're now teaching in schools, and they're teaching exactly what they were taught at the university.

That's why healthcare sucks.  It's a big scam.  And when we had the allopaths versus the homeopaths, all the money went into the allopaths.  So, who also owns all the drug companies?  It's all the same groups.  I won't say people, but really rich families.  It's, who owns the central banks?  It's all the same people.  Their agenda is to not have too many of us, it's to have ways to keep us under control, and for us not to revolt and go steal their shit; that's basically what it is.  The more I look around these days, the more I see of it.  But I see the incredible opportunity a lot of people are going to escape the misery.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's happening.

Adam Curry: It is.  We're going to escape it, because we have a Bitcoin connection.  We have a true, honest network that is the most basic form of freedom of speech really to spend money.

Peter McCormack: I think the interesting point that you said on that is, "You're a bitcoiner, I understand you and I know you", and there can be differences.  Look, I'm certainly a little bit more on the left than certain bitcoiners, but at the same time, we know there are certain principles that you hold.  And I think the interesting thing about that is, it's not just that you hold Bitcoin, you've done the work to understand time preference, and you've done the work to understand the economy.

What's been really interesting is this exit from the system, like the people that you're talking about.  There are big pushes to move to home schooling, there are big pushes to change --

Adam Curry: With off-the-shelf open-source technology, by the way.

Peter McCormack: Michael Saylor's been providing some of that as well, hasn't he?

Danny Knowles: I've not seen that.

Peter McCormack: I can't remember his website, but there is this push and pull between decentralisation and centralisation.  And rather than sometimes maybe fighting people on the big stage, the best thing is to set up these smaller communities and help people and let them understand.

Adam Curry: What we're learning is in the age of Warhol's 15 minutes of fame for everybody, the biggest audience is not advantageous anymore.  It doesn't bring you riches, it doesn't bring you wealth or health or any of that, it makes you really a target, if anything.  This is the whole fallacy of social media.  We're still stuck in this old paradigm where you have to have the number one ratings to be the best, to be the king of everything.  Those days are just over.

I mean, everything has been bifurcated, split, there's too many channels of everything.  So what becomes valuable, back to networks, is your network.  So, for 15 years, I've been building my own network, which we call Gitmo Nation, which is everyone who listens to or belongs in one way to the No Agenda show podcast.  This network, we've facilitated that with things like our own Mastodon server, with a complete open-sourcing -- in fact, we don't even call our listeners, listeners, we call them producers, and they actually do produce.  So, we have thousands of people with expertise in one particular area feeding that back to us. 

They, by themselves, started to self-organise into Meetups, even set up a website, noagendameetups.com.  Every day, around the world, there's at least a group of 8, or sometimes 80, who are getting together, and it's completely separate cultures, sexuality, ages, genders, everything, but they have one thing in common, and that's No Agenda.  That's the same with Bitcoin, that's why Bitcoin Meetups are also something you need to attend.  These networks, that's where the value is, and when people see value in the network, they will be attracted to it.

That's exactly why it's so interesting to watch what's happening with SWIFT; because right now, yeah, they can go to some Chinese network, but that's not where the activity is.  The economic activity is in the SWIFT system.  So, can something be built up alongside of that?  Maybe, but it will take some time.  So, when you have a valuable network like Bitcoin, that's only going to keep attracting people.  It just made me think, the European Union have just proposed legislation.

Peter McCormack: It failed.

Adam Curry: Well, what was interesting was, it initially was, "Hey, we've got to stop proof-of-work cryptocurrencies".  Then it was like, the way I'm reading it, "How can we use this so it's a little bit more efficient, because everybody now knows it's the perfect solution to these bullshit renewables that don't work at certain times; but when they do work, we can solve that, because if they're overproducing instead of shutting them off, let's make some money with them?"

So, that's what I read, because they're hedging.  Everybody's looking at Bitcoin and going, "Let's not completely shut it off.  Let's not entirely get rid of it", and that's not because they want to be fair, Peter, God no.  The real problem is stablecoins.  Stablecoins, by definition, are inflationary.  If it's just a pure representation of the dollar and is used as such, it is an inflationary instrument.  That needs to be regulated, totally agree with that.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, the proof of work in Europe is super-interesting at the moment, because we are certainly seeing the US in large areas, especially in Texas, embrace Bitcoin.  I mean, Texas is Bitcoin country.  We were just at Unchained Capital yesterday, my friend, Parker Lewis's company, and he's done so much work here to push --

Adam Curry: Any guy named Parker, I love all the Parkers in Austin, like three of them!

Peter McCormack: He's fucking smart, and he's been pushing that here.  But I'm generally seeing there isn't a huge appetite actually to ban Bitcoin now in the US.  I mean, the SEC wants to regulate all shitcoins, but we're not seeing that, which is super-interesting.  But when I saw the EU propose this, I was looking at the UK Government thinking, "Well, you've left the EU for a reason.  You now have an opportunity here to push free money, to push Bitcoin, which you can't defeat.  There's an opportunity here to become the European base of Bitcoin innovation", and they're just not taking it.

Adam Curry: No, but they are America's bitch.  The American banks rule the world.  I remember in 2010, I think, I remember my banker buddy, who comes from Deutsche Bank, and he left for his own health and family, I believe, but he knows this shit very well.  He said, "We won, we won".  I said, "What do you mean we won?"  "We won, we fucked all the banks everywhere else.  We won", because we basically owned all of them after that.  I mean, we gave trillions of dollars to every single bank, Bank of Scotland, Bank of Japan, everyone got money.  They had to pay some back, but it's all irrelevant. 

We won, and it took me a while to realise, ten years really, for me to realise that when you're in the financial system in America and you're part of it, it is like second nature, the money printing is second nature, and whenever we go through the cycle here in our Congress, it's like, "We have to raise the debt limit", which means we have to be able to print more money, or the Federal Reserve has to be able to create money.  Then it's always a political football.  But ultimately everyone says, "Well, we all know that we can't actually not raise the debt limit, we know that". 

Why is that?  That's because the Federal Reserve always talks about 2% inflation per year, that's their target.  With that, they're not talking about how expensive your loaf of bread is, they're talking about how much extra money they're going to create, and that is such a given, and people don't understand it; that every year, by definition, your dollar is going to become worth 2% less, just by definition.

Peter McCormack: Who was it we had on who explained inflation to us?  Cullen Roche.

Danny Knowles: Cullen Roche, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so just one thing on that.  He explained, yes, that does happen.  But he said there are other factors that drive inflation.

Adam Curry: Of course, it can be all kinds of stuff, sure.  I just think, what is inflation?  Is the definition of inflation the way it's brought on the news, "Oh my God, everything's getting more expensive"?  I'm talking about inflating the money supply inflation.

Peter McCormack: What I was going to add to that is, I'm not an anti-government person.  I understand that government sometimes, they need to run a deficit, they need to print money to fix parts of the economy, or during tough times, but they used to run a surplus as well, there used to be that balance.  Nobody runs a surplus anymore, it's always a deficit.

But back when they used to run surpluses and deficits, okay 2% inflation, but you used to be able to get 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%, 7% interest in the bank, so you could protect yourself against that.  There used to be better opportunities for pay rises.  We're fortunate with the career we do, but I know for example, there was a big fight in the UK for the nurses to get a pay rise.  They eventually got it, it's way below inflation.  It doesn't matter that they got it, they've got less money.

Adam Curry: We always laugh here, "$15 an hour minimum wage".  We're like, "Dude, it should be $25.  If anyone agrees to that, you're getting screwed".  And of course, "$15 an hour", no, you're being an idiot.  But isn't that exactly the problem?  The money is being taken away from you.  And we all know what will be -- I mean, in 2009, I saw a whole bunch of presentations at a financial conference about vaccines and how this was the future, we're going to cure people before they're sick, and I was talking about it on my show back then. 

I was like, "They're up to no good.  They're more interested in the money than in the health", and they were talking about, "A vaccination against cocaine addiction".  I was like, "What, how can that actually be --", whatever, that's how nuts it was.  But they were really talking about mRNA technology and other things, gene editing, CRISPR, all this kind of stuff.  Conspiracy theory, nutjob Curry.  Here we are, they've actually done some of that.  For better or for worse is irrelevant, they're doing it.

So, when we talk about a central bank digital currency, "That will never happen".  I think we're getting very close for that very reason of what's happening with the SWIFT Network and what is the next version of the economic network, and what will it be based on?  People are talking about, "We have to move to a commodity-based currency".  All I see, logically speaking, is if you want to fulfil the 2050 carbon neutral agenda, which means no more petro, then you are killing the petrodollar.  The whole system is based upon oil and oil-based products being bought and sold in US dollars, being cleared through the New York Fed, going through our money system.  That's the whole reason why the dollar can be used as the reserve currency, why it's relatively stable, and why we can print as much as we want.

So, that is all government's goal, is 2050 net zero.  So at least by 2050, the petrodollar will be out of business.  So, is there something illogic here?  It's backed on the fact that oil is priced on dollars and we've seen, "Don't sell oil in euros, Gaddafi, we will kill you".

Peter McCormack: So we had, do you know Alex Gladstein?

Adam Curry: No.

Peter McCormack: He's from the Human Rights Foundation, big Bitcoin guy.  He's just released a book actually, called Check Your Financial Privilege, which we need to get a copy, Danny.  He's been on my show a number of times.  We've just covered the Economics of War.  We did a show about the petrodollar with him, and he said one of the things that never came up for discussion during the Iraq War, obviously a lot of people were wondering why we did it.  It was based on false information or lies, whatever your choice is, but I think we all know we were --

Adam Curry: It was to save the Bush family's money.

Peter McCormack: Well, so he said, at the time, Saddam Hussein wanted to move to buying and selling their oil with the euro.  So, he said there's every chance this war was to protect the petrodollar, especially as when you saw, as soon as they invaded, they immediately started protecting the oil fields and the, whatever that institution of oil is within Iraq, the central whatever.

Adam Curry: The Central Authority.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, whatever that central authority was, or the oil ministry, they immediately protected that.  But what it's making me think and what I'm wondering is, I don't know who we ask these questions to, Danny, but I couldn't understand why they cancelled Russia and confiscated their foreign reserves, because they essentially killed the Treasury Bill, and they're essentially therefore destroying the petrodollar.  I might sound like a conspiracy nut myself.

Adam Curry: That's okay, I'm a conspiracy therapist, so I'll help you through it!

Peter McCormack: I'm just wondering, is there an incentive to kill the petrodollar, because they want to kill the power of the oil producers?

Adam Curry: I think it's much, much bigger than this.

Peter McCormack: Okay.  You're going to get me some nasty emails now.  Come on, let's do it.

Adam Curry: No, I mean we have to fix -- I'm going back to finances, follow the money.  They need to fix the financial system.  So, when the elites, the banking elites of the World Economic Forum, these are not slouches, yeah it's a drinking club, Klaus Schwab is an evil looking guy, he's really just a PR guy; but the people who really are meat in Davos and I've been following that for years, it's a financial conference, they want a great reset.  They want a re-evaluation, and this is where it gets interesting.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, we want a great reset as well.  Ours is just different.

Adam Curry: Of course we do.  Well, we'll take advantage of the great reset, because I think they will try to reset and revalue, the re-evaluation of all currencies across the board, bring them down to the same level, based on probably gold, which Russia has amassed an incredible amount of.

Peter McCormack: And China.

Adam Curry: And China.  Russia, Putin in particular, the one thing, I don't believe he wants to restore the old Soviet Union to its old glory; in fact, I've seen him say quite the opposite and the quote I've heard him use, I've seen translated as he used it, whatever that means in authenticity, "Those who do not mourn the Soviet Union's passing are heartless.  Those who want to restore it are mindless", and I think he's right about that, and I believe that that's his actual thinking.  The one thing he's always hated was the dollar-priced oil.  So for him, it would be super-advantageous.

Look, Russia may be in on this.  I'll go conspiracy theory for a second.  So, we weren't able to really collapse the world with COVID, and okay, I'm going to go big on this; why?  Because we were supposed to have Hillary Clinton as our President, we were supposed to be locked down for at least three years while they developed a vaccine.  Trump did Operation Warp Speed -- again just conspiratorial thinking, who gives a fuck, we're drinking coffee in Austin -- and he says, "Okay, maybe 2% of people die unnecessarily from shit we haven't tested yet, maybe more, maybe less, but it won't be the whole world locked down and dying inside their houses".

So, Trump screwed things up a lot for the agenda, because a lot of this was clearly already planned, even going back to the planning for some type of event, some type of biological event.  So, now we're coming out of it, no one can really hold it anymore, now we have a war, now we're just going straight for the financial system.  You cut it off -- I mean, gold, if it was really valued at what it should be, there's a lot of paper gold out there, it would probably be $30,000, it would probably be close to Bitcoin. 

I really think they're going to try and equalise it all, so the rupee, the lira, the rouble, the dollar, the euro, it will probably come to some equilibrium based on a gold standard, but then they're going to implement CBDC, and that's how you will each manage your own economy, not by necessarily creating more, but by removing it from the citizens by marking payments like you'd have, if we're Bitcoin, "These satoshis are marked and you can only spend them on food, you can't spend them on alcohol or cigarettes". 

That would be the control they want, and they're not bashful about it; that's the thing.  All of this is being set, the Bank of International Settlements, the CEO, the big fat fuck, he literally sat -- I mean, the guy's really obese.

Peter McCormack: He is a big guy!

Adam Curry: You saw it.  It was like, "Yeah, we'll programme this money, that's much cooler".  Yeah, we want money programmed too, but we're programming it so we can exchange value for value in real time.  And just about that.  What we've developed with podcasting 2.0 with the streaming sats and the boostagrams and boosting and all this stuff, that is giving people a taste of what it's like to live in a real Bitcoin economy, real value attached to it, time preference; it's literally based on time preference.  Like, "Every minute, I want to send 100 sats that I'm listening to this person".

Peter McCormack: Okay, I want to go back a step.  Jeremy, do you know who Adam is?  He essentially invented podcasting, kind of.

Adam Curry: Kind of?!  Dave Winer and I invented it together!

Peter McCormack: I know, I don't actually know the background.  I've only heard Rogan call you the Podfather, and thank you for it.

Adam Curry: No, I thank him, because he recertified me.  Jeremy over here didn't know who the fuck I was.  He didn't even watch Rogan, still doesn't know who I am!

Peter McCormack: For fuck's sake, Jeremy!

Adam Curry: I've heard all kinds of people saying the -- Ricky Gervais actually tried to steal that, didn't he?

Peter McCormack: This is the actual Podfather.

Adam Curry: By the way, that's very flattering and, Ricky Gervais, "I'm going to nick this from Adam Curry".  I'm like, "Okay, Ricky Gervais, you're my hero, go for it".

Peter McCormack: Back off, Ricky!  So, I've heard him call you that, but I actually don't know the origination story.  We want to hear it.

Adam Curry: Okay.  In 2000, I went back from the United States, I'd taken my company public, had a little bit of cash, moved my family back.  My wife is Dutch and she wanted to be closer to her family.  At the time in the Netherlands, we had cable modems, which was fantastic, because the Netherlands has a lot of cabling, not a lot of antennas and stupid wires, and now you could keep your computer on, there was no more dial-up.  Jeremy, do you remember dial-up?  Fucker!  So, you didn't have to do that anymore, you could leave your computer on, but the speed was shit.

So, I thought to myself, there was no experience in multimedia.  You clicked something, it would download for ten minutes, then you'd have to open up a player for a three-minute video, if that.  What if you had a little thing, a little programme running on your computer that knew it had to go get something that you wanted, and it did that behind the scenes without telling you, downloaded and then said, "There's something new"?  You wouldn't know that there was a ten-minute wait, because you weren't notified, so you didn't lose any time in your mind, you weren't waiting for anything.

Dave Winer, at the time, was doing blogs.  He really created web blogs, and he created the RSS standard, which allowed you to subscribe to a blog post.  So, I flew to New York and said, "I want to explain what I want.  I think we can make a cool multimedia experience if you can give me the equivalent of an attachment on an email".  I know he thought I was some Hollywood douchebag guy, and I came back the next day and tried again.  I had now programmed it in one of his programming languages and he said, "Okay, I understand it, I'll do it, but only if you promise me you'll never, ever use my software again, because that was horrible what you did there".  I was like, "Good, I'm glad I don't have to do that".

So, that was 2000, and we were using this back and forth.  Really, we were the only two guys using it.  So, he'd upload a 100-megabyte video, it was already in my computer, click, play, I had an experience.  Then I saw the iPod.  I was like, "That's a radio.  That's not a jukebox, that's not a digital Walkman, that's a radio, it looks just like the one my grandmother gave me when I was 7", a little Sony AM transistor radio with a 9-volt battery.  And I hacked together, as AppleScript, because I'm not a programmer, and had some help from other people, thank goodness, Now, I could upload with a blog post a show, it wasn't called a podcast, and it would download to my computer and then you still had to sync your iPod with your computer; then it would sync it up, put it into a playlist and there it was, the first podcast in a playlist. 

Right away, I started doing a show, called the Daily Source Code, which was intended for -- the one thing I never thought I'd have to do is I now had to find people to build radios, because you needed the app; there were no apps.  So, this Daily Source Code was about the development of the apps.  We had the iPodder Lemon, the xpodder guys, and we were all building these apps for macOS and for Windows, there was no smartphones either.  Then it just went further until 2005 or 2006, and Steve Jobs called me and said, "Can I have a chat?"

Peter McCormack: Just Steve Jobs!

Adam Curry: I was like, "Maybe Thursday"!  So, I sat with him for an hour and really, it was great.  I mean, I could talk about that forever, but his pitch was, "I want to put podcasting in iTunes, are you okay with that?"  I was like, "Yeah!  I'll give you the directory".  So, that's really when podcasting broke open wide.  And the mistake I made, although how could I know at the time, was I made Apple the default onramp for podcasting.  That was fine, they've been great stewards of podcasting, they've done nothing to enhance it, which again is fine, because they make no money on it.  But then they started fucking around with the API that everybody was using, and they were just changing things, and they were taking shows off and deplatforming. 

That's when I called my other friend, Dave Jones, who I'd been working with for ten years, and we'd created a million products that no one ever used, and I said, "I think we have something to do here.  We need to take back the index, create podcastindex.org, we're calling it Podcasting 2.0 because we're going to add features now".  So, the first thing we did is, we now have pretty much every podcast that's actually a podcast, it doesn't have to be active, but not one show, two minutes of someone saying poop, and believe me there's a lot of those.

Peter McCormack: Are we there?

Danny Knowles: We are.

Peter McCormack: Nice.

Adam Curry: Oh, of course you are.  We have over 4.5 million now.  And now, all these app developers didn't have to rely on Apple, they could turn around -- we offer the API for free, we now have 15 or 16 apps, some more established, but even Overcast uses us to some degree.  We are working on 20 features, chapters, transcripts, person, geolocation, seasons, all this stuff.  We just unleashed this big cork of creativity.  It's all open source, open project, set up a Mastodon server so people could communicate.  That's been the best.

Of course, we have GitHub and stuff, where people get a little bit more technical.  And we added, because I'd been messing around during lockdown with a full node RaspiBlitz and like, "Oh, this Lightning thing", and then I discovered keysend and I'm like, "Holy shit, I can broadcast money!" and you'll receive it whether you have your radio on or not, your money radio, that's how I look at it, that's how I look at everything.  I said, "Well then, we can go true value for value", which I've been doing with Dvorak for 15 years. 

We don't ask people to subscribe to anything; we say, "Send me whatever you think this show was worth.  So, you just listened to us for an hour and a half.  You could have gone to the movies, taken a date, had some popcorn, a coke, it might have been $50.  Were we worth $50?"  Time preference.  This is why it all comes back to Bitcoin, it all comes back to that.  So now, we have the same method, where literally people say, "This was the most fun I've had parting with my money".

So, couple of things.  They're seeing that it's money, they have to make choices.  They have to make choices now, "Do I spend this?  Do I give this money to my favourite podcaster?", knowing that it could well be worth twice as much in three years from now.  So, all your time preference stuff comes into play, and people really value what they're sending, it's not just willy-nilly -- second time I'm frightened to use that!  And then, people go so far to the value, they disassociate from the underlying asset. 

So now, it's a Row of Ducks, 2,222 sats.  We have a Rush Boost, 2,112, if you know anything about Rush, you name it, every type -- the 420, all these different types of things, including this permitted payment, which of course you utilise on your podcast as well.  Have you seen the helipad bit though?  You probably don't have that yet.

Peter McCormack: No.

Adam Curry: You know about the boostagrams?

Peter McCormack: No.

Adam Curry: So, we need to communicate.  So, we have developed now in the apps, if you look at any 2.0 app, newpodcastapps.com, you can set your streaming amount per minute, and then there's a boost button.  So, you can just send 1,000 sats, or you hold it down and you can put in a message.

Peter McCormack: Oh, is this a bit like on YouTube?

Adam Curry: Super Chat, exactly.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, Super Chat, yeah.

Adam Curry: Except, oh man, there's so much beautiful shit in here.  So of course, it's going directly from that listener's wallet to the podcaster's wallet.  There's no one in between, no one can stop it, no Patreon who's going to deplatform you.  And on your side, we now have an app that you can load up, we've made it available for Umbrel and RaspiBlitz, and we're getting more out there, and it's a whole listening.  You can see all of these boostagrams, with the amount, what people are saying.  People are now tying that in, literally putting that on their website.  You have leaderboards they're making.

What we've built into this is a distributed digital royalty system.  So, in your show in your feed, or even for individual episodes, you can determine as many Lightning addresses as you want, with a percentage you want going to them.  So, you could say, "I'll take 60%", you'll give these guys each 10%, maybe you give your guests 5%, now people are giving their guests 5% of the split; and so, when someone is listening and they're streaming in real time, or if they hit a boost, you're making multiple payments all to those people individually, uninterruptable, completely transparent, everybody knows what he's getting.

Peter McCormack: I like that.

Adam Curry: And now people are using that for albums, putting the band members in the splits, based upon writer, composer, producer, contributor, or whatever it is.  And this is a true use case of economics at work, which I think is almost unparalleled in Bitcoin world right now, except for point-of-sale stuff.

Peter McCormack: I love it.  I mean, fuck these guys, but giving some to the guest is pretty good!

Adam Curry: Some guests say, "I want 10% to go to --" actually, I think the Human Rights now, they have a Lightning address that you can plug in there.

Peter McCormack: They certainly do.

Adam Curry: And you don't have to ask permission, you know!

Peter McCormack: We'll get back to the podcasting 2.0 stuff.  Just for you, to see this huge explosion of podcasting and what it's become, it must be an unbelievable thing to see, to be there from the start, to now see that some of these podcasts have got the biggest media properties in the world; I mean, podcast has changed my life.  I podcast because of Rich Roll, I don't know if you know him.

Adam Curry: No.

Peter McCormack: I met him during my vegan time actually, out running, and he's got a very successful podcast, it changed his life, and I just said, "I want your life!  How do you do this?"

Adam Curry: This is exactly my point though.  I don't know this guy, I've never heard of him, not interested in what he's talking about.  You just said he has a very successful podcast.  I don't care how you measure that, that's success; I love that.  That's where we need to be going, that type of success.

Peter McCormack: But what do you make of this growth in podcasting?  Because I think podcasting for me is now the most important media channel in the world.

Adam Curry: Because no one controls it, brother.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's that -- well, they do a little bit.

Adam Curry: No.

Peter McCormack: If you have an exclusive deal with someone, they might take some shows off.

Adam Curry: That's not a podcast to me.

Peter McCormack: Okay, that's a fair point.  But Twitter becomes a problem, because it's a low friction to follow someone, and anyone can follow you and just start giving you shit.  If someone makes the effort to listen to an hour, two-hour show, they care about what you're doing, which is what I was thinking about earlier when you talked about your community.  That's something we've not done, is build a community around our show.  But actually, that's probably better to do than try and build a community around Twitter, because it's just a shit show.

But I think podcasting has become the most important medium, because you have to spend time having a conversation, even if you disagree with them.  I haven't agreed with everything you've said today, but we have a conversation and it makes you think, it makes you go back and consider things, and it's the same for the people listening in.  But what is it like for you as an external person to see this, because you spawned a multi-billion-dollar industry?  It must be just fascinating.

Adam Curry: I am living the happiest days of my motherfucking life!  I'm elated at what's happening, what you just said.  I mean, that is truly what makes me -- I mean, I'm 57, I should maybe be thinking about retiring.  I'm doing four shows a week, I'm doing more shit than ever, I'm showing all aspects of me.  But to see what a generation younger, really millennials, what they're doing with it, where they're taking it, how they're understanding how to build community, I really want to stress, "Fuck Twitter". 

Mastodon, we cut it off at 10,000, that's all we wanted because it's a lot to manage, but you can federate.  So, anybody can manage their own little community, everybody can come in, you can create your own rules, it's very Bitcoin-like, and that has become a very high signal-to-noise ratio versus Twitter, which is the inverse.  And once you get past the, "But no one will see it", of the bots and the trolls and the fuckwads you don't need in your life anyway, many people have dual accounts, it's not crazy.  People have Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.  You add one, maybe one goes away, but people start gravitating towards this. 

There's no algos is really the main thing, because there's no profit motive, so you're not constantly triggered with a conversation that was triggering coming back, coming back.  It scrolls off, you're done.  It's just done and it fizzles on.

Peter McCormack: Danny, put Mastodon on our to-do list.

Adam Curry: You can set up a Mastodon server, masto.host, I think for €5 a month.  But to answer your question though, fucking mind-blowing!  Mum, I made it, mum!

Peter McCormack: But just for some perspective, just so you understand, at the time I set up the podcast, my company collapsed, my marriage collapsed and I was a recovering drug addict.

Adam Curry: You had the trifecta, brother.

Peter McCormack: Everything was shit.  And I met this guy, Rich, and I saw his life and I was like, "I'm going to start a podcast".  I didn't have much money and I just made this effort in going around with my little case with two mics, a Zoom H6, and I started interviewing people.  And in the space of four years, it's absolutely changed mine and my family's life.  It now is a thing whereby we book -- I mean, I travel the world with it.  I've been to 40 countries with the podcast, 40 countries. 

Adam Curry: And not just staying in posh hotels, you've been in migrant camps and crazy-ass shit.  I've heard you.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but now we're at the point where we go, so here, we come to Texas for a few weeks, Danny flies in from Australia, Jeremy flies in from Philly, I fly in from Bedford.

Adam Curry: I drove in from hill country!

Peter McCormack: You drove in from hill country, guests fly in, we've got this.  Rather than one little, tiny case, Jeremy, how many cases do you bring?  Eight cases.

Adam Curry: Dude, you need a Carnet for all this shit at this point. 

Peter McCormack: We get to create this content, people appreciate it, people have started podcasts because of my podcast, it's impacted my children's lives.  This podcast virus has been the most positive virus in my life, my friends' lives.  Danny dropped me an email one day and said, "Can I do your audio?" and I said yeah, and now he travels the world with me and does this.  It's changed all of our lives.  So, thank you.

Adam Curry: No, thank you for just seeing the vision of it.  The reason why it works is because of its simplicity, and we'll just start with the --

Peter McCormack: And integrity.

Adam Curry: It doesn't work without integrity, and civility is in there somewhere too.  That's what Tony Kahn, from WGBH, who brought NPR public media screaming and kicking into it, very visionary.  He says it's a civility here because, first of all, we don't employ a lot of tricks.  You had your Zoom H6, you had your two mics, but you could have used that, you could have had a whole truck with you, it doesn't matter; you could have recorded on your phone. 

Then, the simplicity of an RSS feed, which at its core, anybody who can read can look at this and go, "I kind of understand what's going on here and I kind of see what has to happen", because it's in English; it's called Really Simple Syndication.  All you need is a text editor, an MP3 file and a server to put it somewhere, and you're podcasting.

Peter McCormack: And you can take on CNN, you can challenge them.

Adam Curry: This is the joke of it all.  If you look at absolute numbers, CNN is nothing compared to -- our two shows together would kick CNN's ass for three days in a row, cumulative.  But we're still coming out of the throws of whatever the mainstream media was; that takes decades sometimes, but it's going really fast.  The 30-year-olds today, they don't have cable, they're not watching CNN; they'll watch some stuff on YouTube.

What's sad, and what we have to get people out of, is the serotonin addiction, all these different chemicals that are firing in your brain when you get recognised, get liked, get retweeted, get whatever it is, a positive comment.  And now, we've gotten to the point where it's a game, it's gamified whether you're going to get kicked off or not, and we're now focusing more on, "Can I say something?  I might  get kicked off of YouTube, I might get kicked off of Twitter.  I can't believe you did that, you're going to get kicked off", and they forget about what they were talking about really.  That's just gone away, and it's so polluted, it's a river of vomit.

Peter McCormack: I know.  The one thing I'm worried about, and I worry about myself, but broadly as well, is audience capture.  There is a real risk of likes, downloads, clicks, retweets, of you getting captured by your audience.  I think the best thing is always to talk to as many people you disagree with as you agree with, and try and push yourself.  But I felt the tug of audience capture. 

I know there are certain tweets I can put out about Bitcoin that are going to get 10,000 likes, but I think it's very important to just try and avoid that.  Because, if we do make that mistake, I think even some podcasts could end up making the same mistakes as mainstream media does, whereby they're also driven by the similar incentive model of advertising, therefore they want to get their downloads up, therefore they absolutely back into the corner of their audience.

Adam Curry: To me, podcasting, there's no wrong way to do it, but it's the antithesis of advertising media, if only for the reason that you can fast-forward through a commercial, and you can fast-forward through it, so what's the point of it.

Peter McCormack: Have you ever looked at the numbers though, because it's quite surprising?

Adam Curry: Not much.  Do a lot of people listen anyway?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  So, the one time I looked, it was a long time ago, only 20% of people fast-forwarded through the ads, which really surprised me.

Adam Curry: Only 15% of people fast-forward through our donation segment.

Peter McCormack: Interesting.

Adam Curry: I think it's because its content, people are feeding something back.  By the way, to the value-for-value model, transparency is a key point, so we thank people and tell you how much they gave us.  You can sit there and count and see how much we got.  We've never cared.  By coincidence, I found out we had about 1.4 million listeners to the No Agenda Show, just because it was a small window of time where we could actually track something accurately because of the index work.  But I've only cared about, "Can I pay my rent?"  That's all it's ever been, that's all I ever said.  I can pay my rent, great, we've got another good show to go.

With my stance on Russia and Ukraine and not showing the compassion that some people are programmed to expect, I had many people say, "I'm never going to send you value again, you've ruined it for me.  I'm never going to listen".

Peter McCormack: That means it's working.

Adam Curry: Well, it's how it's supposed to work, and that's good.  And I've refunded people money too.  I was like, "You're that pissed off?  Let me give you your $50 back, please, absolutely".  Somehow, there's something in our human psyche or psychology that makes this work, that makes us want to interact.  And if anything, everything that's being built around us, certainly from Big Tech, is meant to fuck with us.  And these are not secrets. 

My God, this new filter on Instagram, which is now nonstop, the "how I look beautiful" filter, which guys, everyone's using it.  I don't know, I must be just weird that way, that I think that can't be good, when you look in the mirror and see your real self, and what is that doing to your image, to your self-worth, all of this shit?

Peter McCormack: Well, Jonathan Haidt studied the impact.

Adam Curry: Fantastic books he's written, fantastic books.

Peter McCormack: I mean, my daughter is not allowed Instagram for that exact reason.  She's upset about it, but it's like…

Adam Curry: What I'd like, when it comes to education, every kid, their parents should give them an old laptop and a Linux Distro and install this.  And then, when that's set up, set up a Mastodon server, it'll help you punch a hole in the firewall at the cable modem, and get on that with your friends, start there.  Umbrel, not Umbrel specifically, but the category, because you have Start9, Umbrel, RaspiBlitz; but Umbrel, even the ready-made Bitcoin machines box, which of course I had to have one in orange just because I've been waiting for this.

Peter McCormack: It's so cool!

Adam Curry: It's not so much that you have a full node and you have a Lightning Mode, but also Nextcloud and, click, "Nextcloud is there.  Oh my God!  It's everything I really need", it does all the things that Microsoft Office, or any of these productivity suites would do; and, with the benefit, once you've figured out how to work in this brave new world, you can actually go somewhere and talk to the guy who made it and say, "Hey, bro, let me buy you a coffee", tip, Lightning invoice, "I've really been looking for something like this, is it possible you make that?"  And you know what, these guys actually answer.

So, when we figure out that we can have the products we want built the way we want, we might figure out that we can elect politicians we really want!  We have to go through this process, I guess.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  Well listen, man, honestly thank you so much.  As I said earlier, podcasting has changed my life in so many unbelievable ways, but my family and --

Adam Curry: You changed your life, brother, you changed it.

Peter McCormack: I did, but just the medium, it has for all of us.  We were watching the Denver Nuggets last night with Jeremy.

Adam Curry: Classic.  Jeremy had not seen it!

Peter McCormack: We were supporting the Philadelphia 67s, weren't we?

Adam Curry: The what 67s?

Peter McCormack: We were winding him up!  But we were watching it last night, and we were all saying, every six weeks, we get together for two weeks and do this, and we all get on the plane, we all get excited, we get here and we sit down, we discuss the shows, we have some whiskey, and we spend two weeks just doing the best job in the fucking world.

So, thank you, brother, for what you did to create this path, because it's genuinely changed my life, and I really appreciate you.  And now seeing you smash it with Bitcoin as well, I think it's truly amazing.  So, just from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Adam Curry: Well, thank you, because you are one of many people who have helped me understand truly what Bitcoin is.

Peter McCormack: That's my guests!

Adam Curry: Well, I've formed my opinions from multiple people, but I like a lot of what you say.  But also, to be very fair, I like the ads on your show, because I'm like, "Oh shit, I actually want one of those".  Relevant advertising that way is very exciting to me, so I don't want to discount that.  But thank you for continuing to propagate the message, both of podcasting and of course Bitcoin, and inspiring people, because I don't think you're that much younger than me, I hate to say it, but how old are you?

Peter McCormack: I'm 43.

Adam Curry: Oh, so you're catching up.

Peter McCormack: Catching you, nearly there.  I look about the same age!

Adam Curry: But there's still people ten years behind you, and they need all the help they can get.  We're going to go through very, very bumpy times, and creating, maintaining and securing these alternative networks is super, super-key.  And thank you for bringing some more colour to Texas.  We love having you here in Texas, we think you should move here.  If you want to get married, I can find someone appropriate, shotgun wedding!

Peter McCormack: I would be down for that, I'd like me a nice Texan woman!  Okay, listen, if people want to find out more about podcasting 2.0 -- by the way, we made a show about that a couple of years ago, so go and check that out; that will be in the show notes.  But where do you want people to go?

Adam Curry: podcastindex.org if you're a developer, if you're a listener.  If you want to get started right away, just see what it's like, go to newpodcastapps.com.  Immediately, you'll see all the podcast apps that use it, what kind of capability they have.  You can also look at hosting companies that have capabilities.  That's really the main place to go.

Peter McCormack: All right, man, well keep crushing.  Thank you so much.

Adam Curry: No, thank you, thank you guys as well.