WBD464 Audio Transcription

Can Bitcoin Save The American Dream? with Natalie Brunell

Interview date: Saturday 19th February

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Natalie Brunell. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, I talk to Natalie Brunell, a fellow podcaster who hosts Coin Stories. We discuss coming to America, uncovering a failing system through journalism, finding Bitcoin and hope, and developing a mission to fix things.

“Our system is so broken and messed up… and I want to fix it because people don’t deserve to live like this. They deserve to just be able to make money and keep it without losing value.”

— Natalie Brunell

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Morning Natalie.

Natalie Brunell: Good morning, it's good to see you here.

Peter McCormack: It's good to see you.

Natalie Brunell: You've travelled far.

Peter McCormack: Into your home town.

Natalie Brunell: I know, this is where I went to college.  Isn't it pretty?

Peter McCormack: It's so nice.  Can you imagine living somewhere like this?

Natalie Brunell: It's amazing.  I should come up here more, I'm not that far away.

Peter McCormack: How long did it take you to get here?

Natalie Brunell: 25 minutes.

Peter McCormack: Right.  Are you ready for us to turn the tables on you?

Natalie Brunell: Yes, I am.

Peter McCormack: Natalie's Coin Story!

Natalie Brunell: Perfect!  This was supposed to be a very temporary project.  I thought it was going to be one season tops.  I would have named it something much better than that.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, naming's an issue, something me and Danny discuss on a weekly basis, because we wish we hadn't called it What Bitcoin Did.

Natalie Brunell: Really, why?

Peter McCormack: Because sometimes you want to do other things, asymmetric topics, or this guest you want to get on, and they're like, "Don't want to do this Bitcoin shit".  So, we debate it regularly.

Natalie Brunell: Well, everyone's changing their names, so I feel like I might eventually do that as well, because that's the thing to do, right?  Meta, Block, everybody's just adjusting their names, so maybe I'll do that eventually too.

Peter McCormack: The Natalie Brunell Podcast?

Natalie Brunell: Maybe.

Peter McCormack: Natalie, you've been crushing it, you have really, really been crushing it.  We were talking about you the other night, we went out to eat with Vijay Boyapati.

Natalie Brunell: I love him.

Peter McCormack: Well, he loves you, and I love you and everyone loves you, but we were talking about what you've been doing this year, not only with the podcast, but your TV appearances.  You've been absolutely killing it, you've been relentless with the hosts, you don't let them interrupt you, you just came on -- I've seen two specifically where you've come on like a fucking steam train and some of the best clips I've seen of people talking about Bitcoin.

Natalie Brunell: That means so much to me, you have no idea.  I really, really appreciate it.  I finally feel like I'm in my zone, and feel like I have found my calling, if you will.  I'm really passionate about Bitcoin and I want to spread the message and use my skills that I've acquired over the last ten years to do that, so I really appreciate it.

Peter McCormack: Well, look, Bitcoin's going full mainstream now.  It's been mainstream for a while, everyone's heard of it, but it's now in popular culture.  It's regularly discussed across the networks, a lot of podcasts are doing well, a lot of people are getting known, and I'm going to embarrass you, but the discussion that we have is me, Danny, Jeremy and Vijay; we all kind of agreed you're the best we've got to be out there in the mainstream talking about Bitcoin, we think you're the best.

Natalie Brunell: Well, I don't know if I deserve that, but thank you.

Peter McCormack: Well, of course you deserve it, you do, and we'd like to see more of you doing it.

Natalie Brunell: I want to get on more shows.  It's funny, people ask me, "Why haven't you been on CNBC yet, why not CNN?"  It's hard, because for some reason, Fox Business and some of the other outlets have been more prone to want to discuss Bitcoin, as opposed to some of the other outlets.  I'm not a big CEO that purchased Bitcoin and put it on my balance sheet, so I would love it to get out there more, if I can, and hopefully that will happen.

Peter McCormack: But you're an insider in that world, you know how it works.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, a little bit.  But I still think that Bitcoin, there's just so much that people don't understand, which has been an advantage to me, right, because if mainstream media got it, I probably wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing right now and making a career of it.  So, I feel like I'm running full speed, because I got a head start, understanding and learning all of this myself.  But once mainstream media pours in, I mean, I don't know what will happen; they won't really need me anymore!

Peter McCormack: I don't agree, I think you've got this, and I think more people should be listening to your podcast, and if we can do anything to help you, we will.

Natalie Brunell: Thank you.

Peter McCormack: But it's time to turn the tables on you.  Actually, I've said this.  Do you have a consistent first question?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, I start at the very beginning, "Where are you from?  All the way back, where were you born and raised; what was your childhood like?"

Peter McCormack: I remember you asking me about that.  I didn't know if you did that for every guest.  Natalie, where are you from; tell everybody?!

Natalie Brunell: I am from a town called Łódź, Poland, and I was there until I was 5, so my parents grew up there.  My parents have all these stories about what it was like when it was Communist.  So, they really always dreamt of coming to the United States.  My mum just had this vision of The American Dream and coming to the US.  She watched a lot of American films, which I think is why I was naturally predisposed to loving film and TV and just media in general, because she always had things on and she loved the old classic Hollywood movies, and how they depicted American life.  So, her dream was to come to the US.  She tried every single year for the lottery.  It's really, really hard to come.

Peter McCormack: The lottery?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, a visa lottery.

Peter McCormack: Tell me about that.

Natalie Brunell: So, you have to basically apply, and there's a small amount of people, small number that actually get to come over and apply for a visa and apply for citizenship ultimately.  And she tried every single year, and it took 20 years before my family could actually come.  So, it was interesting, because my mum was 38 at the time, my dad was 41, I was 5, and my dad was like, "Why are we going at this point?  We've got our lives figured out, it may not be the best situation, we don't have a huge place or a ton of money, but are we going to really start over at this point in our lives?  We don't know the language, we don't know anybody".

My mum, in this blazing glory, she's like, "Well, I'm going and I'm taking the kids.  You can come or you can not come, but we're doing this.  A better life is going to be in the US for them, so they can go to school there and there's more a sense of upward mobility".  So, my mum was the one that thrust the family forward and had us all come.  So, yeah, I was 5 years old when we moved to the suburbs of Chicago.

Peter McCormack: How many years did you say it took?

Natalie Brunell: 20, yeah.

Peter McCormack: 20, nearly 21.  And her number came up in the lottery, or another way?

Natalie Brunell: So, my uncle, her brother, married someone who was American and then he was able to apply for our family, so it ended up not happening through the lottery, but it still took 20 years, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Wow.  And do you remember being in Poland, as a 5-year-old?

Natalie Brunell: I remember little things.  I have little images in my head of my childhood there, our neighbourhood, and I've gone back, so I think that helped fill in some of the blank spaces.  But my family travelled a lot, they would do importing and exporting of merchandise, and sell it in a little shop in Poland.  So, we would travel to countries like Bulgaria and, at the time Czechoslovakia, and different countries to purchase goods that we were going to sell in Poland.

It was funny, because at the time, my mum would always say, "The best quality things and the things that were the most coveted and the things people wanted to buy were from America; they were made in America!"

Peter McCormack: Not anymore.

Natalie Brunell: Not anymore, yeah.  So then we came and started over.

Peter McCormack: Wow.  Do you remember the move?

Natalie Brunell: I don't.  I think I remember the first plane ride, because it was the first time I took a flight, so I vaguely remember being on the flight over.  But then, I just remember going to school for the first time, starting over as a kid that doesn't know the language, feeling so alien from everybody else.  I wrote an article about this in Bitcoin Magazine.  That's what vivid to me, is this feeling that you don't belong and that you're different. 

Vijay and I actually talked about this too, because he had that feeling when he immigrated.  It's this feeling that you know you're different, everyone thinks you're weird and don't understand the food you're bringing to lunch, think that your language and your accent is weird.  So, that's ultimately why I changed my name.  My birth name is Natalia, but everyone was like, "That's not the American name.  The American name's Natalie".  I was like, "Okay, call me Natalie".

Peter McCormack: You didn't officially change it?

Natalie Brunell: I officially changed it, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Does your mum still call you Natalia?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah!

Peter McCormack: Of course.  So, those early days in school, pretty tough, or did you settle in within a year, two years?

Natalie Brunell: I felt really lucky, and my mum likes to tell this story, because it's funny how siblings can be so different.  I have an older brother, he's always been very shy, I was always super-outgoing and very fearless.  So, I didn't care that I didn't have the language skills yet, I would just talk and try to meet friends and all of that.  I was a big people pleaser, because I wanted to fit in.  And, yeah, I just did really well in school.  I picked up the language quickly, and then I just started to do really well in classes, and it came easily for me, which I feel grateful for.

Peter McCormack: And, did you pick up the language because you were so young and adaptable?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Did you pick it up quicker than your parents?

Natalie Brunell: Oh, absolutely.  So, to this day, it's funny, because how much you talk, for sure, how much you practise affects your accent, because my dad is the most shy, he practises the least.  He has a very thick accent.  So, I always loved Arnold Schwarzenegger growing up, because his accent reminds me of my dad!  My mum still has a very thick accent, but it's more mild.  And then my brother has a little accent, because he was 16 when we came.  Then, I don't know, I've had a Chicago accent, now people say I have a California accent, but clearly I don't have a Polish one.

Peter McCormack: Do you speak Polish?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, to my grandma.

Peter McCormack: To your grandma?  But your parents, you all speak English together?

Natalie Brunell: I speak English to my parents, but they speak Polish to me, it's like a hodgepodge!

Peter McCormack: And is that weird thing sometimes you see, where some sentences are half one language and half another?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: It's always fucking weird, I never understand how that happens, or how people do it.

Natalie Brunell: When you grow up in a bilingual household, it's really interesting, because you start to not even think about what language is being spoken.  So, someone will say something in Polish, and then someone will respond in English, and vice versa.

Peter McCormack: And, do your parents talk a lot about what it was like living under communism in Poland?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, my mum especially.  She's always been a really big storyteller, which I'm really grateful for.  My grandparents lived through the war, and things were just really hard.  I mean, basic necessities were hard to come by; you had to wait in line for things.  Even my mum describes when I was little, and this is certainly something I don't remember, but just being in line and things running out, and you couldn't get basic things.  And the idea that you could move upward in society and change your status, that just didn't exist, it just didn't exist.

In a way it's funny, because she looks back and it's good that we didn't have the mass inequality, because here we have the flip.  It's like people are ridiculously wealthy, and then we have homeless tents.  But at the same time, you could work as hard as you want, and you could have all of the motivation and intention to better your life, and it's just not possible, there's no opportunity.

Peter McCormack: Do you think that's influenced you with regards to Bitcoin, knowing about this?

Natalie Brunell: Well, yeah, absolutely.  I feel most of all like I just believe that The American Dream shouldn't be so hard to achieve.  I feel like the country was founded on such amazing principles of just self-determination and freedom, and we've lost that along the way.  I've always been a believer that if you're a good person and you work hard, you should be able to achieve the things that you want.  And it's not going to be all equal, we're not all equal and we don't all have the same motivations and desires, but I think you should have a shot.

I saw what happened with my parents, is that every year it felt like it got harder and harder.  They worked, they did all the right things, they paid their taxes, they just wanted to take care of their family, and the goalposts kept moving of how much you needed to make and what you could actually do, and school getting more expensive.

Peter McCormack: Here or in Poland?

Natalie Brunell: Here.

Peter McCormack: Okay, well we'll come back to that.  Do you talk to your mum about Bitcoin?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, I orange pilled my family!

Peter McCormack: Hell, yeah!

Natalie Brunell: And did it make more sense to your mum as, again, somebody who lived under a communist regime?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  The only thing that she has trouble with is the digital aspect.  So, she was more of a gold bug, if anything.  She loves the idea of something that can't be confiscated and that's not controlled and not manipulated by any central authority; that is very central to her.  So, those principles run very deeply in her.  But as far as something being completely digital, that's just what scares her, and she actually worked in the banking system when we came here.  So, she knows that accounts can be hacked and people's money can be drained from something that doesn't really exist, other than on a computer screen, so that's what scares her.

But I think that's hurdle for her generation, the idea that something doesn't have to be physical in order to have value and in order to be kept safe by us.  So, yeah.

Peter McCormack: But she's orange pilled?

Natalie Brunell: She's orange pilled.  And you know what helps the most?

Peter McCormack: Go on, tell me.

Natalie Brunell: Saifedean Ammous's Bitcoin Standard in Polish, I sent that to her.

Peter McCormack: Wow!  Do we know if Vijay's book is in Polish yet?

Natalie Brunell: I don't know, but if it is, I'll send it to her.

Peter McCormack: Because he's working on translations at the moment.  I think his book is also fantastic.

Natalie Brunell: Amazing.

Peter McCormack: And yesterday, we had someone in, called Eric Yakes.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah!

Peter McCormack: Do you know of him?

Natalie Brunell: I've seen his book, I haven't read it yet.  I need to, because I've heard great things.  I saw the book in Kansas City when I hosted the Bitcoin Day there.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay, well it was a phenomenal interview, so I'd recommend him for your podcast.  He's a really interesting character.  His story about getting into Bitcoin is super-fascinating, because he very early on in his career realised, "What the fuck am I doing?" and decided to take the leap, whereas a lot of people have done it later in life.  What about your dad, is he orange pilled?

Natalie Brunell: Well, he just purchased his first amount of Bitcoin over Christmas, so he came later, but yes!

Peter McCormack: Yes!  But he did it.  You're the crazy bitcoiner in the family then?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.  I think they're a little shocked about my turn in my career, because it was so unexpected into something that I don't have formal training in.  None of us have a degree in Bitcoin and I didn't study economics, so I'm literally just channelling my journalism and communication experience into this specific area.  So, it came out of the blue for them for sure.

Peter McCormack: Well, we should talk about that, because I remember when we spoke, you were thinking of quitting the journalism world, and just taking this dive into Bitcoin, which was a very brave move at the time. 

But let's just go back a step, because I want to know about why you got into journalism first, because I think certain types of journalists are predisposed to understanding or getting Bitcoin straightaway.  I think there's two types of journalists: they get it, or they want to fight it; there's no middle ground.  And the ones who want to fight it, they're usually shitty journalists who don't do the proper research, and the ones who get it, they suddenly just want to work on it.  So, from school, was it always a case that you knew you wanted to be a journalist?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, pretty much.  I always wanted to work in TV or film, and I grew up having a ton of media on at home, because it helped augment my parents' English skills.  So, whether it was TV shows that were more on the scripted fictional side or just news, we were a family that watched a ton of news, like Diane Sawyer, Barbara Walters' interviews, Oprah, all of it was on all the time!  So, I remember being young and just thinking what an incredible job, what a noble profession.  You get to interview leaders and big celebrities, and I'm this little girl in the suburbs of Chicago who came from a foreign country.  It just seemed like this amazing job.

So, I knew that I wanted to do that, and it's funny because I thought that I had to go to LA for that, this is where all of that was, the heart of media, and the capital of not just Hollywood, but TV and film in general, which it isn't.  News is more New York City, but I thought, "I have to go to school in LA", so I was always really, really determined.  And I think knowing that my parents came from a place where they started over and we didn't have a lot, like I remember moving into our first apartment, and my parents were super-selfless.  They gave us each a bedroom, my brother and me, because we couldn't share, we have a big age difference; and they slept on a pull-out sofa in the living room, because we couldn't afford anything else.  We all shared one small bathroom.

I saw their sacrifice and I saw how hard they worked every single day.  My dad would get up at 3.00am in the morning to have to warm up the car, because it was so snowy and frozen outside in Chicago, to go to work super-early, and he would come back late at night, and it was just a furnace burning, constantly working to try to take care of the family.  And I always said to myself when I was young, I have to achieve something, because I want to take care of my family.

I thought that you were rich if you had a garage!  I was like, "Oh my God, if you have a garage you've made it, so you don't have to scrape your car of ice"!  So, yeah, I had this burning fire when I was young.  I was like, if one in a million gets to be the Barbara Walters, or whatever, then why can't I be that one, if I just work hard and I'm good to people.  So, my mum always encouraged that as well, she told me to dream big, and so I came out to LA and I decided to major in journalism.  So, yeah, I set off.  I mean, pretty much what I did for ten years is what I learned how to do in college, which is funny, because some people study something and then they go and do a job where they do nothing related to what they studied at school!

Peter McCormack: This guy!

Natalie Brunell: I literally have been writing scripts and creating news packages, and all that, since I was 18 years old.

Peter McCormack: So, prior to going to college, you were practising in front of the camera as a mini news reporter?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, news reporter, host, red carpet person, actress, all of it.

Peter McCormack: So, you would just turn up, or it was all practice?

Natalie Brunell: No.  In high school and stuff, I was very active in things, like I acted when I was young and did acting classes.  But no, I didn't start all that until college.

Peter McCormack: Was YouTube a thing then?

Natalie Brunell: No, did not exist.

Peter McCormack: You see, that's a shame, because you would have had the platform to just start distributing at that age.

Natalie Brunell: You know what, I'm really grateful that I didn't have that, because I feel like the 90s are just this milk and honey time period for me, where it was just pure innocent childhood and teenagehood without the social media.  I'm personally grateful that I didn't worry about what my friends were posting.  And for me, that probably would have been hard too, because again, my family didn't have as much.

My family moved into a suburb where people tended to be more well-off, because that's where the good school was, so we were among the families who had the least and lived in the tiniest place.  So, I think seeing all that on social media would have probably been hard, because comparison is sort of the death of joy, as I always say.

Peter McCormack: The 90s were awesome.

Natalie Brunell: The 90s were the best!

Peter McCormack: I loved the 90s.  I think it was the best music.  I know everyone thinks that about their generation.  It was the best music, the best film, the best TV.  And you're right, I remember I didn't get my first mobile phone until I was like 20.  So, during the 90s, there was no real -- the internet was basic.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.  I had Oregon Trail, and then I remember when AOL came out with the dial-up.

Peter McCormack: The little CDs.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, the CD-ROMs.

Peter McCormack: CDs on everything.  Everyone had hundreds of those.

Natalie Brunell: I remember my first chatroom, I mean it was basic.

Peter McCormack: A dial-up.

Natalie Brunell: I had a Compaq computer, I did nothing on it.  I had a real life with real friends in the real world, not the metaverse.

Peter McCormack: In the meatspace.  Danny?

Danny Knowles: Yes?

Peter McCormack: Do you remember dial-up internet?

Danny Knowles: No.  I think my family had it, but I don't really remember using it.

Natalie Brunell: That's amazing.

Danny Knowles: Yeah, I don't think I ever used it.  My family had it, but I just remember broadband.

Peter McCormack: Do you remember it?  So, what used to happen, it was 56k dial-up, right.  So, what you used to do, Danny, is when you'd want to get on the internet, this is how budget it was, you'd basically click connect and then you'd heard this sound and it would connect, and you would load a web page, and it would slowly fill in.  All the text would come in and each image would be slowly coming in, and it could take a minute for a web page to load.

Danny Knowles: I think I do remember that noise on the phone.

Natalie Brunell: It's a really annoying noise.

Peter McCormack: And you would go from page to page, and you would spend five minutes reading three pages, but it was still amazing.  It was like, "Wow, there's this content everywhere!"

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, and the first emails, it was incredible.

Peter McCormack: Hotmail.

Natalie Brunell: My first AOL username was Seychelles86!

Peter McCormack: Seychelles86?  Mine was Shortlongjohn, I don't know why!  And then I had a Hotmail address, because everyone got a Hotmail address.  Did you have one?

Natalie Brunell: I didn't have that.

Peter McCormack: Did you have a MySpace account?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, very temporarily.

Peter McCormack: MySpace was pretty cool.

Natalie Brunell: I don't really remember it, but yeah.

Peter McCormack: If you were really into music, it was cool, because every band had a page.  I think one of the first pages I ever went to was like the Korn's MySpace page, to try and listen to a song.

Natalie Brunell: That's cool.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  And then we got, what, 128 and then we got -- what was that thing in between broadband?  What was it called?  After dial-up, you had…  Anyway, the 90s were the best.

Natalie Brunell: The best.

Peter McCormack: Maybe not the clothes.

Natalie Brunell: I know, I have lots of nostalgia for it.  What?  The clothes were fun.

Peter McCormack: Actually, I still dress like I'm in the fucking 90s.

Natalie Brunell: I liked the 90s.  I feel like the style's coming back.

Peter McCormack: I never changed!  Okay, so you were creating stuff, you went to college, when did you get your first proper gig?

Natalie Brunell: So, I also went to graduate school.  I got my Master's in Journalism at Northwestern, and you have to remember that I graduated right into the recession and my family lost everything in that.  So, literally just as I saw this mini America Dream come true for my parents, where they were able to afford a down payment, and obviously this is the housing bubble, we got --

Peter McCormack: 2008?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.  So, in 2005, we moved into a townhouse, which was a big step up for us, but still not a real house.  I've always lived with walls connected, but we had a townhouse, it had three bedrooms, and I remember just being so happy.  This was when I was in high school now, and I just remember feeling how they worked really hard and we did it, and I had my own room, and my parents had their own room and this is awesome.

Then, I went off to college and 2008, 2009, my mum took out a second mortgage on the house, because again, this is the time where in fiat, everyone's encouraging you to take out more debt, just go do it.  So, my mum was like, "Maybe I'll start my own business", so she took out a mortgage.  And everything tanked, and they went under completely.  My parents went bankrupt and they had to start over.  So, I graduated into that.  My mum, she has a heart of gold.  They both tried to insulate me from it and not tell me how bad it was, so it's funny because it's like my parents lied to me essentially, because I was away at school.  They were like, "No, it's all good, we're fine, we're choosing to leave the house".

Peter McCormack: It's a white lie.

Natalie Brunell: "We're going smaller, because you're not here anymore", all of it.  No, I found out later, they went bankrupt and they just didn't want to tell me, because they thought that that might cause me to be stressed and worried for them, because they're so selfless.  I mean, they're literally the salt of the earth, the best human beings ever.  So again, it's like, "Why did this happen?  My parents are such good people, they played by all the rules and they pay their taxes, they work super-hard.  Why is it so hard for them to just have a house; why?"

So, I think that sparked something in me where I just feel that there's injustice and inequality in the system, but I didn't know why, because I didn't study Austrian Economics at the time, I didn't understand what money printing is, we didn't invest in stocks, my parents were good savers.  So, their money was essentially melting away and I didn't understand any of that.  So, it took this ten-year career being in news and exposing myself to some of the biggest crises facing the society, interviewing people on a day-to-day basis, facing poverty, homelessness, civil unrest, public corruption, for me to finally start to connect the dots.

When I discovered Bitcoin and finally went down the rabbit hole, I was like, "Oh, this is the problem.  This is the problem that's also impacted my hard-working, amazing, good family".  And now, I will do everything possible to help everyone I can first understand the problem, and know that Bitcoin is the solution.  I feel really driven and called to do that.

Peter McCormack: Wow, I didn't know that part about your parents, you've never told me that before.  But obviously, it's probably private, I don't know, but they got fucked by a system.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, it was hard to talk about for a long time, I felt embarrassed.  I mean, I went to Pepperdine, up the street.  Half of my friends and students who go there, they come from very wealthy families.  You don't want to be the poor kid, you don't want to be the one that has the family that doesn't have money; it's embarrassing.  And that's so sad, because I look back now, and I'm so proud of my family.  I can't believe I even thought that way.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but look, I get that.  I was very lucky that I went to a really good school, the best school in town.  But to go there, my dad had to work his arse off.  So basically, his basic salary would not cover the cost of putting us through school, so he used to do overtime.  So, he was a shift worker and an aircraft engineer, and the shift pattern was four days on, four days off.  So, it would be four days, four days off; four nights, four days off.  So, he'd either be working 6.00am in the morning until 6.00pm in the evening, or 6.00pm in the evening until 6.00am in the morning.  And I have all these vague memories.

My mum got up every single day for him and would make his breakfast, prepare his lunch.  He would go and I have this fond memory.  We would hear the door and it would be my dad coming home.  We'd all run in and give him a big hug.  It was the highlight of the day.  But his wages weren't enough to put us through the school.  So, what would happen is, every time overtime would come up, he would take it.  So, where it was four days on, four days off, he might go four, four, four and work all twelve in a row, or four, take a day off, work three overtime. 

He used to occasionally do this thing called the ghost shift, which was basically a 24-hour shift.  So, he would go in and maybe get a little kip in there, but work 24 hours.  He had to work, work, work.  And within the school I was in, and I've not talked to my dad about this, because he wouldn't understand it, but I was the poor kid amongst the kids.  So, the black and red rugby jersey came down from my brother.  By the time I got it, it was grey and pink because of all the washes.  And you would come in after Christmas and all the kids would be like, "What did you get for Christmas?  I got Nintendo, I got this", and I didn't get those things.  So, I understand that and I don't think it's anything to feel ashamed about.

Natalie Brunell: No, and I don't anymore.  It's just when you're younger, you want to fit in.  It's that feeling that you want to be like everybody else.

Peter McCormack: It drives you forward.

Natalie Brunell: Oh my gosh, yeah.  I've always been the most motivated, ambitious person, I think, in my friend group, because I was like, "Okay, maybe I ask and the answer's no, but I have to ask.  I will do whatever it takes, I will take the risk and I will keep moving forward, because I want it just as badly, and I feel that if I'm a good person, then I deserve it".

Peter McCormack: So, talk about your journalism gig.  You said you were covering poverty, homelessness.  Was it something you were specialising in, or was it just you did a range of things and sometimes you covered that?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, so journalism's really interesting, because it's changed so much.  So, I graduated into the recession and I also graduated into a massive technological, digital shift, where all of a sudden, YouTube is coming up, Instagram, Facebook.  And now there are citizen journalists and people creating their own shows.  And now we're suddenly competing for advertising dollars online, and the whole business model for journalism's shifted.  So, I chose an industry that was at one time, pretty lucrative, even if you were a local newscaster in, say, Chicago or a small town; you made pretty good money actually, and you had a pretty solid career and you retired and you might have a pension from the station. 

Then it flipped and it changed very, very quickly, to all of a sudden, you're shooting your own videos as a reporter, you are posting things online, the salary's suddenly decreased.  I mean, if I had known some of the things that would happen in that shift, I probably wouldn't have gone into the industry, because you could make so much money by specialising in something and then essentially creating your own online platform, and becoming an expert or having an online business, which I guess I'm doing now.  But I took a ten-year detour to do that!

So, yeah, it was really hard.  So, I graduated, my first job in journalism was in a small town.  Actually, it was behind the scenes at CNN, and then I got my first on-camera job in Palm Springs, California, which is about an hour and a half east of here.

Peter McCormack: I know it.

Natalie Brunell: And, I was making $30,000 a year.  After graduating, I had debt for a little, I managed to pay that off, but then I started on this track where basically, if you want to be an on-camera reporter, anchor, host, all these people that are on the Today Show, or whatever, you start in a small market like that, that has a small viewership; then you move to maybe a middle-sized market, a big market, top ten.  The top ten big cities are obviously New York, LA, Chicago and so on.  And then hopefully, some people want to go national.

So, that's the path, the trajectory, and each time you get a promotion, after about two to three years of a job, you hopefully make more money in a bigger city, and more money, more money.  But you're on these contracts, two to three years.  So, if you're a reporter, you start as a general assignment, you're covering everything.  You'll cover the cat up the tree on the first day, and then the local city council campaign the next day, and then a big fire that breaks out the next day, and then a murder the next day.  It's one thing to the next, you're sometimes flying by the seat of your pants doing multiple stories a day.  But you are literally just responding to the biggest story that's happening wherever you are.

It was really interesting, so I did that for -- I went from Palm Springs to Sacramento, which was cool because it's a state capital, so lots of issues going on in the State of California, obviously.  And then I moved to actually network, ABC News, I was based in the LA bureau and I was a correspondent that travelled across the country for breaking news.  Then, I settled back in LA at a job where I was an investigative reporter here locally.  Then, I left.

Peter McCormack: When you were doing your reports, when you were out there in the field doing this, were there certain things that you felt a passion towards, "Okay, I've got that assignment.  Yes, that's what I want, I want to do that"?

Natalie Brunell: Yes, so I became passionate about investigative, because I've always, I think, been -- it's two things.  Number one, I'm just naturally curious, and I think I'm a good investigator for information.  I don't mind sifting through public documents and looking for clues.  I just think it's a natural detective quality that I have! 

Number two, I got tipped off by a source when I was in Palm Springs, who basically said there's something really shady going on with the Mayor of Palm Springs and a local developer, where basically there were bribes going on, and this secret relationship where he was getting paid under the table.  So, I ended up helping uncover this massive scandal and the mayor ended up indicted on 33 counts of public corruption --

Peter McCormack: Holy shit!

Natalie Brunell: -- because he was essentially getting bribed by a local developer, and they were basically handing each other money.  That was really fulfilling for me, and also I think because of what my parents went through, I had always this feeling of, "The system screws the little guy in favour of the rich people and the politicians", and I want to get them, I want to expose them, I want to hold them accountable.  Because, I don't think that you should run for public office if you want to serve yourself.  I think you should run for public office if you want to serve people, and actually do something to help society and not become a millionaire and trade options on the side, while everyone else is getting screwed.

I think that's wrong, I think it's fundamentally wrong, and that definitely comes from my family background.  So, I felt called to just hold their feet to the fire, which unfortunately my industry doesn't tend to do anymore.  They tend to serve as a mouthpiece for the government now, and it frustrates me, which ultimately started to lead to my decision to leave, because I don't want to be a part of that.

Peter McCormack: As an independent, you can be that person again.

Natalie Brunell: Exactly, yeah.

Peter McCormack: That was a big decision though.  Like I say, I remember you reached out to me, I'm trying to remember exactly, and you're like, "I'm launching a podcast, will you come on it?"  I'm like, "Sure, let's do it".  Then you were telling me you were thinking of quitting your main job to go and do this, and it was like, "Woah, that's a big deal".  But you did it.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.  Sometimes I look back and I'm like, if you would have told me this a year or two ago, I wouldn't believe you of what my life looks like now, and this career that I'm creating for myself; I would not have believed you.

Peter McCormack: What was your orange-pilling moment, do you remember?

Natalie Brunell: Yes.  So 2017, I was working in Sacramento covering everything again, and I heard about Bitcoin.  I had a boyfriend who lived in San Francisco, and his friends worked in Silicon Valley, and one of them worked at Coinbase, and some of them were Bitcoin investors.  One of them lost 10 Bitcoin in Mt. Gox, or something; not as much as it would be today, but yeah.

So, I started to hear about it, I decided to pitch a story about Bitcoin, I found a Bitcoin ATM in Sacramento and I was like, "Can I just do a story on what this is?"  My station was very, very wary, because they were worried that I was giving essentially investment advice and sending people down this path where they were going to set their money on fire.  And it was like a one and done.  I did that story, but at the time I didn't have The Bitcoin Standard.  I just thought this was a bet on a new technology, but I was sceptical.

That's why I think I relate to so many people out there, and that's who I try to speak to in these media hits.  I was really sceptical, I thought this would probably go to zero, "This is internet funny money".  And I also at the time, again, I didn't understand our money system, so I had to do that work.  You have to do that work, otherwise you really can't appreciate how Bitcoin solves all these problems, and why it's such a powerful network.

So, I never sold, I purchased my first amount of Bitcoin in 2017 and I had a mentor who I told about Bitcoin, and he's someone who's just a really close mentor in my life for almost the last ten years.  I go, "There's this thing called Bitcoin".  So, he picked up The Bitcoin Standard, he read it and he goes, "You have to read this book.  This will change your life".  So, I read it, I read it twice, and that's where the veil was lifted off my eyes, and I was like, "Oh, this is what is exacerbating all of these societal issues that I've been reporting on", where literally, for the last ten years, every year it was a recycling of the same stories, "Homelessness ballooning: this guy pours $500 million on it.  Housing is too expensive".

Nothing is working and the problems are just getting bigger, and it's because government is just handing out free cheques, raising the debt ceiling, and the money is going to the people who don't really need it, and it's crushing the people like my family, the middle class, the lower class, the savers, the pension fund holders.  It's so messed up and nobody gets it!

Peter McCormack: And it's even worse now, it's an accelerating problem.

Natalie Brunell: Absolutely.

Peter McCormack: $30 trillion of debt?

Natalie Brunell: $30 trillion of debt.

Peter McCormack: I can't even get my head around that.

Natalie Brunell: I know, it's insane.  And people don't even have a concept that it has any meaning anymore.  I started teaching at USC, and I tried to get my students to maybe do a story on the debt ceiling being raised, and because it's been raised and there's been no consequence, what does it even matter to the average person that doesn't understand the system?  It's like, "Well, they voted 20 other times to raise it, so why not again?" 

There's no consequence, but they don't realise it's what's pulling us apart into, not only really rich and really poor; but it's also, I think, pulling us in these polarised, political zones too, because we have to have someone to blame, right.  So, we start blaming each other, blaming these people, blaming those people, when the problem is sitting below us, and it's the quicksand that is the fiat system.

Peter McCormack: I think they should remove the ceiling from it, because there clearly is no ceiling!

Natalie Brunell: There is no ceiling!

Peter McCormack: There is no ceiling to this.  Okay, but you make the decision, you're like, "Fuck it, I'm done, I'm going to quit, I'm going to go full time, I'm going to go be a podcaster"?

Natalie Brunell: Well, I mean I had a podcast before.  I literally thought this was going to be a one-off.  I had a podcast called Career Stories, which is why it's called Coin Stories, and I always loved people's back stories.  I always loved biographies, autobiographies, especially if it was a rags-to-riches; it was inspiring to me.  I love hearing how people overcame obstacles to achieve success, and what they had to persevere through.  So, I had this podcast where I was interviewing people from all backgrounds and different industries, politics, media, journalism.  Mooch was actually on it, way back when.

Peter McCormack: The Mooch!

Natalie Brunell: The Mooch!

Peter McCormack: Pre-Trump Mooch, or post-Trump?

Natalie Brunell: It was post-Trump, but before they had the massive feud, I think.

Peter McCormack: Well, I thought it only lasted about a week?

Natalie Brunell: Well, he was 11 days in the White House, yeah.

Peter McCormack: I love how he talks about Trump!

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, he's changed his tune for sure.

Peter McCormack: The big orange moron!

Natalie Brunell: But yeah, so I decided, because I was talking to that mentor, we always went back and forth on Bitcoin and now money, and I started to invest, and he goes, "Why are you interviewing these people who are in journalism?  Why aren't you interviewing the Bitcoin people?" and I go, "That's a really interesting point".  So, I started to reach out to people like you, because I had started following you all and I was curious.  I was like, "How did you guys come to the conclusion of Bitcoin; where are you from; why do you believe in this; what's your background that made you predisposed to these sorts of principles?"

So, I started to reach out and I decided to put together a season.  I was like, "I'll just get the 12 biggest people and I'll call it Coin Stories for a season, and then I'll be done".

Peter McCormack: Who did you have first?

Natalie Brunell: You, you were my first episode.

Peter McCormack: I know.  I knew that!

Natalie Brunell: You were my first interview, it was very special!

Peter McCormack: I knew that.  That's probably because I'm the first who replied.  Everyone else was like, "I'm too fucking busy"!

Natalie Brunell: Well, no, your podcast was a really big entry point for me, because I started to consume everything, I became obsessed.  So, I worked my job, but then I would wake up at 6.00am in the morning to watch YouTube videos, listen to your podcast, listen to Pomp.

Peter McCormack: Fuck that guy!  I'm only joking.

Natalie Brunell: Love Pomp!

Peter McCormack: I love Pomp.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, so I was just hungry for all the information I could, and then I wanted to talk to you guys.

Peter McCormack: And you did it.

Natalie Brunell: I did it.

Peter McCormack: How many episodes now?

Natalie Brunell: 50.

Peter McCormack: 50 exactly?  Wow.

Natalie Brunell: Dylan LeClair was my 50th.

Peter McCormack: How good's Dylan?

Natalie Brunell: Dylan is amazing.

Peter McCormack: How fucking smart are these kids?  I cannot believe.

Natalie Brunell: I know, I can't handle it.

Peter McCormack: I feel like a dumbass talking to somebody half my age.

Natalie Brunell: I love this whole space.  As soon as you meet someone who's in Bitcoin, you automatically check off all the -- you're like, "Yeah, you're cool, because we probably believe pretty much all the same things".

Peter McCormack: There's a big range of personalities, really big personalities and stand-out personalities, but so diverse.  It's a fascinating space to be part of.  So, you've done 50 episodes, okay.  Have you had any repeats?

Natalie Brunell: Yes, I've had Peter on again, I've had Saifedean on again.

Peter McCormack: Peter?

Natalie Brunell: Peter Schiff.

Peter McCormack: Peter Schiff?  Yeah, so I retired Schiff from the background in terms of the photo.  I was like, "The joke's done".  And then Danny bought the BLOCKCLOCK and he was like, "Can we get him up there?"

Natalie Brunell: I love Peter.  It's so funny, because Peter, I read his books and he knows his stuff when it comes to the monetary system.

Peter McCormack: He's a bitcoiner!

Natalie Brunell: He is a bitcoiner, except that he is the villain of Bitcoin.  I don't know, I love him, but I think he's great.

Peter McCormack: I think he's great.  How do you tell somebody's story twice, or have you evolved beyond that?

Natalie Brunell: No, so I've also had Preston Pysh and Willy Woo on again, because they all have interviews that are more headline-driven, or more what's happening in the market now, because I want to branch out.  Obviously, at some point you run out of coin stories!  So, there's still a lot of people in the space.  I mean, if I could get Elon Musk or Jack Dorsey, or people, that would be great.

Peter McCormack: We all want that.

Natalie Brunell: But no, I'm trying to branch out and have more conversations.  Peter, I had on, because I wanted to go over some points he made in his book about fixing the financial system; Saifedean, I talked to him about his new book.  So, yeah, I'm just trying to get out there.  But it's funny, because I do remember that shift of just deciding, "Yeah, I'm going to leave my job", which was at this point, I liked my title, I liked my boss, I was in a great news job that I was really happy with, doing stories that fulfilled me.

Peter McCormack: Being paid.

Natalie Brunell: Being paid.  I had a car, I had my gas paid for.  I mean, it was a good gig, and I decided to just jump off the cliff, because I felt there's more that I can do and more lives that I can touch in a positive way, and I can really be myself, I can really share the fact that I'm not neutral on Bitcoin.  I believe that this could change the future and allow a lot of people to achieve The American Dream and achieve wealth for their family.  So, I'm too passionate about it to be neutral and stand on the sidelines.

Peter McCormack: You've got to take some risks sometimes, you've got to put yourself out there.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, you have to.

Peter McCormack: The reason I got my hands tattooed is so I could never get a normal job again.

Natalie Brunell: Oh, yeah?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I always had tattoos, but they were always hidden.  And then, once I went into Bitcoin, I got my hands done.

Natalie Brunell: You could get a job anywhere with tattoos, this is 2022.

Peter McCormack: Not on your hands.  There are certain jobs you can't get.  Certain people look at you in different ways.  But okay, you've done 50 episodes, this is the gig now, so what's going to happen for the next 50 episodes, where's this going?

Natalie Brunell: So, I'm just going to keep going and try to interview as many people as possible.  There's still a huge wishlist of people that I have, and I'm doing more videos and partnering with awesome companies to just try to get the message out there more, and use my skill.  I'm basically trying to channel the journalism, communication skills to simplify the message of Bitcoin, because I think that the rabbit hole is very big and very difficult to navigate, especially if you have a full-time job and you just don't understand it, and you don't even know why you need to understand it.

So, I think that there needs to be people in this space who are focused on the content and the education aspect that just go, "Okay, here's what you need to know, here's what you need to read or look at, here's what you need to understand from the history of the system, and this is why you should take a look at Bitcoin and not have a 0% allocation at this point".  So, I'm just trying to do that in any way possible.  When they ask me to go on TV, I go on TV; when someone says, "Hey, fly out and do a presentation", I fly out and do a presentation.  I do whatever it takes.

Peter McCormack: You hustle.

Natalie Brunell: I'm hustling, I'm an immigrant, I hustle all the time.

Peter McCormack: We all hustle, I'm still hustling, you've got to keep hustling.  Okay, who's on the wishlist, who's the top three?

Natalie Brunell: Cathie Wood.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, agreed.

Natalie Brunell: I would love to talk to her.  Joe Rogan actually, because I've seen him talk a couple of times about Bitcoin on the show, and I know he's accepted payment.  But for so many reasons, I would just love to sit down with him.  And Jack Dorsey's really high on my list, a bunch of Jacks are.  Jack Mallers is on my list.

Peter McCormack: You've not interviewed Jack Mallers yet?

Natalie Brunell: No.  I've tried to reach him, I can't reach him.  I mean, there are so many people, obviously Nayib Bukele I would love to get.  There's so many people still on the list.

Peter McCormack: I can help you with Jack.  We're seeing him this week, I'm interviewing him this week. 

Natalie Brunell: Oh, that's awesome.

Peter McCormack: If you want to come over, I'll introduce you, we can make that happen.

Natalie Brunell: I would love that.

Peter McCormack: Let's do that.  I think Jack would love to come on your show, and actually he's got a great story.

Natalie Brunell: I know, I would love to hear it.

Peter McCormack: He's so fascinating and he's such a great interview.

Natalie Brunell: And Chicago, home town.

Peter McCormack: Bukele's an interesting interview.  You might have to travel for that.

Natalie Brunell: Well, we had an exchange on Twitter, I don't know if you saw it --

Peter McCormack: I know.  It was to do with fries!

Natalie Brunell: -- but it wasn't a no.

Peter McCormack: It wasn't a no.  He'll have some fries!

Natalie Brunell: It wasn't a no!  I think I might get him.

Peter McCormack: I think you might get him.  You should get him, he needs to talk to more people.

Natalie Brunell: We'll see.

Peter McCormack: Okay, so just going back a touch, you take the leap, you're into Bitcoin now, any fears?

Natalie Brunell: No.  I mean, that's a really interesting question.  I have to be honest with you, I think when you have the type of background that I do, you're always scared that you could lose everything, because I've literally experienced that.  And for so much of my childhood, we were financially unstable.  So, I think I always have this worry that the money won't be there, and I feel better with Bitcoin, for sure.  But I just feel like I have to keep going, and I'm on my own, and my parents, I'm supporting them as opposed to them supporting me. 

So, I just probably overload myself a little bit with too much, with too many things that I say yes to, because I'm like, "This is an opportunity to save more and help my family.  This is an opportunity to save more and help my future family", whatever.  So, financial independence, people think that just because we're doing this, or I'm on Fox Business talking about Bitcoin, that I'm a millionaire.  I wish.  And I hope someday that Bitcoin allows me to feel totally secure, but I'm not there. 

My dream is to retire my parents, and that's something I haven't been able to achieve yet, because being a news reporter, you're not making great money, certainly not enough in this world with how expensive things are, to take care of your family in that way.  So, that's my dream.  I want to spread the message of Bitcoin and be able to retire my parents.

Peter McCormack: You'll get there.

Natalie Brunell: Thank you.

Peter McCormack: I think so.  I think the thing is with podcasting, you just have to be really patient, it trickles up and trickles up.  But when we had that chat the other day, we were texting each other and you told me your numbers, it was exactly the same trajectory as mine.  You've just got to keep hustling, you've got to keep doing it, you've got to be patient.  And I think the thing with podcasting, a lot of people give up, and they give up because they've been doing it for six or eight months and it's just not got where they wanted to, but it's just about keeping going.  The work is quality, you don't struggle to get guests, you're a great interviewer, so I think you'll be fine.

Natalie Brunell: Thank you.

Peter McCormack: I want to know a little bit more about where you are in the Bitcoin spectrum.  So, you're not a shitcoiner?

Natalie Brunell: No.  You remember our first interactions on Twitter where you were like, "Who's this girl?"

Peter McCormack: Who is she?

Natalie Brunell: Because I said something about shitcoins, right?

Peter McCormack: I can't remember.  My memory's terrible.

Natalie Brunell: You said this on your podcast, because you were like, "Who is this girl?" but we had some interactions on Twitter and I called someone out for being a shitcoiner, or something, and you were like, "Oh!"

Peter McCormack: Oh, yeah, you were coming in, flying in, throwing fucking haymakers at people!  I remember now.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, I mean I'm definitely losing out on a lot of financial opportunity right now.  My DMs are full of people wanting me to promote shitcoin projects and metaverse and NFT things.  So, you can see how much I believe in Bitcoin by turning that stuff down, because I could really use that money!

Peter McCormack: I know the feeling!  I've turned down a lot of shitcoin money.  You're playing the long game, low time preference.

Natalie Brunell: Exactly.  I really believe that this will pay off in the long run.  I don't want to lead the sheep to the slaughterhouse.

Peter McCormack: But where are you on the spectrum with regards to politics, because you obviously fully recognise the problem is government, and it doesn't matter whether you voted a Republican Government or a Democrat Government, the same shit happens?  It's the same in the UK, it doesn't matter whether it's Labour or Conversative, there's some slight changes, but the debt goes up.  And this is right on point now.

Two days ago, we were discussing with Vijay talking about this exact point and discussing the ideas of what's going to happen to governance, what's going to happen to politics.  Vijay's firmly of the belief that we're going to move to a post-democracy world of city states.  I'm not there, but I know a lot of people are and a lot of bitcoiners are anarchist or libertarian.  Where do you fit on that whole spectrum?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, I guess I would consider myself more of a libertarian.  I think online, voting-wise, I'm designated as independent.  I've become really jaded with politics because of my career, because you're right, not just with growing up and seeing whether it was a red person or a blue person in the White House, my parents' problems got worse every year.  So, I don't think it's necessarily red versus blue, and I will say again, as a reporter, I covered all these campaigns and different elected officials and it was all the same. 

They come in and maybe they have great intentions, but the system corrupts, I think, from within and it's so rooted in who gets money how and these PACs, and all that.  I just think that people maybe get lost in that, I don't know, or maybe natural greed just starts to bubble up and you start to want to go towards the shiny area where people are promising you big cheques to re-elect you.  And I am just really sad about the whole system, because I think that as fiat and as the money printing exacerbates wealth inequality, I think it puts a societal pressure on everyone, where everyone feels this anxiety that they can't make it.  And all of a sudden, little things, like you start to separate yourself into little groups and you start to say, "Well, you're that team and I'm this team".

Now, we've gotten to the point where we can't see eye-to-eye on anything, and our country was founded on freedom, our country was founded on small government, our country was founded on all these things that all of a sudden, if you feel this way, you're on this side; if you feel this way about this, you're on this side.  And people are trying to politicise Bitcoin, which I hate, because it's apolitical.  It's software, it's maths, "What do you mean?  It's not political, you're trying to make it political".

Peter McCormack: It does feel slightly more Republican, because of being a slightly more conservative approach to economics.

Natalie Brunell: But also the financial accessibility, and this mission to have a more egalitarian society is certainly more progressive, right?

Peter McCormack: Of course, but I just don't think that message has got out, because most of the message about Bitcoin is about economic conservatism, and I think that's one of the difficulties.  I also think that one of the interesting things, travelling back and forth from the UK to the US, this divide, this left-v-right divide, this political divide seems way worse here than in the UK.  A perfect example would be, we've all lived through this pandemic for the last two years, coronavirus.  It's not the same in the UK.

In the UK, there isn't, "I'm Conservative, therefore I'm not vaccinated.  I'm Labour, I am vaccinated".  There are certain issues where -- but in the US, it feels like every issue, it gets put into one of the pools, and I don't know why this is happening.  I don't know if this is a media problem, or if this is just a historical problem of division that's got worse and worse because it's a two-party system, so there isn't that escape valve for people who feel stuck.  We have escape valves in the UK.  If you're not Conversative, you're not Labour, you can become a Lib Dem, or you can vote Green.  We've got a multi-party system.  I don't know if it's that, I don't know what it is, but I come here and I'm like, "Why is everyone so fucking divided?"

Natalie Brunell: Well, I think certainly social media exacerbates it, and they clickbait and they capitalise on it.  But I still think, at the core is just because our system is now so broken, and it's starting to create these divides, because now you're starting to resent people for different things.  And at the core of it, I think, is money.  I think when you connect the dots, it's just the fact that it's so much harder to make it.  People are more dependent on government handouts or stimulus or assistance, and I think we've lost the sense of what capitalism actually is; people confuse the two.

We have crony capitalism because of the government intervention and people don't really understand that, so they blame the wrong people.  We see Senator Warren saying, "It's the greedy meat manufacturers, the greedy corporations, Elon Musk".  Meanwhile, we've got politicians day trading and making a bunch of money and making money on speeches.  They're innocent?  They're not the problem at all? 

I think hypocrisy, for me, has always been one of the evils that I want to weed out in journalism, because if you make the rules, you should have to play by them too, and I think that's what's really frustrated me in the pandemic.  Just the other day, we had Governor Newsom and our LA City Mayor, no masks, posing with celebrities at the LA Rams game, but everyone is supposed to wear masks, and there's all these rules, and your kids can't go to school without masks.  Why is it a different set of rules for you than everybody else?  Governor Newsom dining at the restaurant up north when every restaurant is closed.

One of my biggest stories before I left my news job was a hypocrisy story, and when you touch that button because of how inflamed everybody is right now, those stories go so viral.  I reported on the President of LA City Council, who after all the city unrest happened in May of 2020, she proposed defunding the LA police by $150 million, $200 million, and came out saying, "We don't need them and this whole system's broken".

Peter McCormack: Idiotic.

Natalie Brunell: Meanwhile, I caught her and filmed her having two, not just one, two police officers, paid for by taxpayers, round the clock outside of her house, round the clock.  I interviewed them and they're like, "Yeah, what the heck?  She's defunding us and we have to sit outside her house and guard her house".  And the second I called, "Hey, can you tell me why there are two police officers round the clock, for the last five months, outside of your house?" all of a sudden, they're sent away, and she won't answer my questions.  But she sends them away because she got caught.

Peter McCormack: Of course not.

Natalie Brunell: What is that?  This isn't a red or blue issue, it's like, "Why are you a hypocrite?"

Peter McCormack: Because some people are full of shit.

Natalie Brunell: It's ridiculous.

Peter McCormack: Some people focus on theatre, they focus on doubling down on certain issues.  There's a real issue with people going, "Do you know what, I fucked up, I was wrong".

Natalie Brunell: That would be nice if more people did that.

Peter McCormack: Whereas, people don't realise that from honesty comes authenticity, which is the reason why Joe Rogan is so loved.  Do I think there are things that are said on the Joe Rogan show that are wrong?  Absolutely.  But do I believe he's trying to pursue the truth and he's an honest person?  Abso-fucking-lutely.  That's why you trust him more than you trust MSNBC or Fox News.  And I do feel like there needs to be a revolution in journalism and media.  That's a massive problem at the moment, and you probably recognise that more than anybody as somebody who's worked in it.  I mean, you've talked about it.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, I will say that I always felt, not in my last job actually, I felt good in my last job, because it was more driven by human interest and storytelling and investigative; but in previous jobs that I had in different newsrooms, I felt like I couldn't even be myself in the newsroom, because the stories and the narrative and the bias was in one direction, and in my core I felt like we were missing the other half of the story, and I can't speak up, because if I speak up, I'm going to be looked at as this crazy person on the other side, even if you're just trying to get more middle.  And that's hard.

I know there's other journalists who felt that way, because we would find each other in the newsroom, and there would be anchors or reporters who were like, "Yeah, we feel differently, we voted differently, but we can't say it, because we're all of a sudden going to be ostracised and marginalised as people who are against the narrative, the agreed-upon view".  That's crazy to me.  Again, that's not America.  The White House coming out saying they want to sensor Joe Rogan's music, or telling Spotify to -- how is this American?

Peter McCormack: Well, it isn't.

Natalie Brunell: Words are that scary?  He's interviewing people and asking questions.  Why is that so scary?  I just think it's sad.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's actually an insult to everybody else that they can't decipher this information themselves.  We're all trying to find answers to some very complicated questions out there, whether it's the pandemic or money, global warming, there are so many complicated issues out there.  And, you need the ability to go out there and go through and sift through the information, whether it's an article, whether it's a research piece, whether it's a podcast.  But once they start taking pieces away from you, how do you know you get to the truth?  You're just getting to their version of the truth, and usually truth isn't binary.

Natalie Brunell: No, and I just think it's sad that we're basically allowing some media outlets to, like I said before, become a mouthpiece for the government without any questions.  I mean, the government and politicians, they want to remain in power.  There's an incentive system that's very clear, and I don't understand how journalism, as this extra branch that's supposed to be the watchdog, not the lapdog, the watchdog, is just saying, "Yeah, whatever the White House says, we're just going to regurgitate it".  And if you don't go by what the government says, then you're the problem.

Peter McCormack: It's because of the money.

Natalie Brunell: This harps back to my parents.  This is not the country that they thought they were moving to.  They saw that type of government and they did not want it, they wanted to leave it.  So, it's interesting to see them see how America has changed over these last 20 years that we've been here, because it's completely different.

Peter McCormack: What does your mum say; is she sad, worried?

Natalie Brunell: She's worried for the future.  She's thought about going back to Poland, because now Poland has changed so much and become more capitalistic and has found a sense of nationalism and found sort of an identity now, and she feels like the life would actually be better there, in some ways, than here where, again, it's very difficult to retire today.  If you didn't have a cushy job with a pension, how are you going to afford retirement?

Peter McCormack: Well, even the pensioners are getting fucked.  They're going to be the ones paying for this financial problem we're in now.

Natalie Brunell: I actually want to mention this to you, because a lot of people don't appreciate some of the things, unless they're in that boat and in that situation.  So, my parents worked a significant portion of their adult lives in Poland.  So, I mentioned my mum was 38 and my dad, 41, when we came here.  So, in the same way that we have social security, a similar system exists in Poland.  Well, Uncle Sam wants you to report that money from another country if you're receiving retirement benefits.  Guess what rate they tax it at?

Peter McCormack: No idea.

Natalie Brunell: 75%.

Peter McCormack: You are fucking kidding me?

Natalie Brunell: So, my dad collects 25 cents on the dollar from money he earned just because it's coming from another country.  Our system is so broken and messed up, and this is what gets me mad.  So, you joke, you know; I come on with a blaze of glory when I go on TV.  Yeah, because the system's broken and I want to fix it, because people don't deserve to live like this.  They deserve to be able to make money and keep it without losing value.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's a vulture tax system the US has.  I'm always amazed by this tax rule, whereby if you move to another country and you earn money in another country, you're still taxed by the US Government.  If you move to the UK, or move to Poland, and you got a job, Natalie, you will be taxed by the US Government.  I think somebody told me, there's only two countries that do it, the US and something weird like Eritrea.  We'd have to factcheck that. 

But it blows my mind how poisonous this tax system is here in the US.  And where's the money going; where does it all go?  It's not helping people with mental health issues in Santa Monica, who are left roaming the streets; it's not going towards the police in San Francisco, which is an absolute shitshow, you can't leave a car in the street; it's not going to help the homeless.  Where does the money go?

Natalie Brunell: It goes in their pockets.  Do you know how much the salaries are of people that work in local government here, like a local LA County supervisor?

Peter McCormack: I've heard.

Natalie Brunell: I reported on a local LA County supervisor.  Her salary was $300,000.  She ended up hiring a former girlfriend of hers, who became an assistant or deputy, whatever, at $250,000 a year.  This system is so messed up!

Peter McCormack: It's so fucking broken.

Natalie Brunell: And then they're guaranteed that salary pretty much for life once they retire, and it's just, "Oh, that's where the money's going.  Oh good, no wonder", but it's because the highest paying jobs are in local government, which is completely incompetent on some levels.

Peter McCormack: That's something we do have in common between the UK and the US, is completely incompetent government.  And also, they always get paid and they always grow.  They always get paid.  During the pandemic, as people were put in lockdown and cafes and restaurants and nail salons were all closing because they couldn't afford to survive, every single person in local government and your federal government kept their jobs and got paid, which is bullshit.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, one of my friends reported on one of the supervisors here, again coming out on stage saying, "It's dangerous to eat, we've got to close down all the restaurants".  That night, she's out at a restaurant, just eating and enjoying life.  And it's just crazy!  And if you ever do want to talk about homelessness, I have so many opinions on it, because I ended up doing a story where I was embedded on skid row and some of our worst homeless areas.

Peter McCormack: Tell me now.  There's very few things that bother me more than homelessness.  The one charity I've constantly donated to in the UK is Shelter.  I would always, I mean we did it this morning, we had a guy outside Starbuck's.  Me and Danny, we tried to buy him breakfast, he wouldn't take it.  But we got him an orange juice.  It just pains me that people are trapped to live on the street.

Okay, look, if I was going to be homeless anywhere, I'd want it to be in Venice or Malibu, because at least you've got the sunshine.  But in London in the winter, it's as cold as fuck and people are laying in boxes, and then they're spending the days begging.  I don't know the answer, but it upsets me, so tell me, I'd love to know.

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, we'd really have to get into it, and I'm sure we don't have time, but it was one of the most eye-opening experiences, because I did ride-alongs with the paramedics who respond the area that has the highest homeless concentration in the country, and actually it's the busiest fire station in the country; not because there are so many fires, but because every day, they're just constantly responding to the homeless.

Peter McCormack: Here in LA?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah, here in LA, we have a huge, huge problem.  So, I was embedded with Station 9, which again, busiest fire station in the country, but they're not responding to fires, it's all homeless emergencies, mostly related to their health.  And most of their calls are related to overdoses.  So, this is what I think is irresponsible of the government here, especially the local government, is that they're not recognising the drug problem that exists in this community.  And because there's really no consequence and there's no outlet in which basically the person, okay, now you've responded to the person three times, now there's a place where they have to go to get some help.  The ACLU, I believe, is the one that lobbied to basically say, "It's a person's human right to say no".

Peter McCormack: Explain who the ACLU are. 

Natalie Brunell: The American Civil Liberties Union.  They're also, I think, behind Prop 47, which basically decriminalised everything, led a bunch of people out, and we have surges in crime ever since that passed in 2014.  Prop 47 in California has been awful for just societal issues.  And okay, so the ACLU, my understanding is that they basically lobbied and said, "You can't force someone into treatment", essentially, you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do, even if they don't have the mental capacity to make that decision.  So, what does that mean?  There are a lot of people who are homeless, especially in downtown Los Angeles, who are severely addicted to drugs, or mentally ill, or a combination of the two.

Now, the paramedics respond to these people all day, every day.  So, let's say you're responding to somebody who literally is not with it, whether they're on a meth trip or whether they have a severe maybe schizophrenic episode, they can't take care of themselves, they can't answer the question of, "Can I take you to rehab?  Can I please take you to this facility where you will get sober and you will get food and you'll rest and we'll give you a bed and we'll help you with whatever?"  They can't make that call, because they're not there.

However, because of this law and because of how the ACLU lobbied, where we've swung the pendulum all the way to one side, the second that you ask them and they say no, they have to be hands off, because otherwise literally the department could get sued for taking them somewhere against their will.  So, a person who is not able to functionally say yes or no, "Take me to a sobering centre", etc, the second that they say no or refuse, they have to let them go.

So what happens is, it's revolving, it's a circle, where they respond to someone who's overdosing, they pop them with Narcan, which wakes them up.  Literally, I saw zombies wake up.  This person is dead; Narcan sparks the heart, they're breathing again, they get taken to the emergency room.  Every test is done, they wake up, the people at the hospital say, "Hey, there's a facility, can we take you to it?  There's a sobering centre, there's a facility where you can get rest, there's a rehab centre".  The person says no, goes back on the street, overdoses again.  And it's like this.

They have phones, because the government gives them phones.  And they also have these little debit cards essentially, they get filled up twice a month.  And guess when the overdoses are?  When are the overdoses?

Peter McCormack: I think I know when the overdoses are; when their cards get refilled.

Natalie Brunell: So, they actually have to staff the station more on the days that the cards get refilled, because they go right out, they get drugs on the street and they overdose.

Peter McCormack: Why don't they take the cards away from the people who are overdosing; that would be logic?

Natalie Brunell: Well, that would be against their civil human rights though.

Peter McCormack: The ACLU seem to me to be a very poisonous, stupid organisation, who are trying to be progressive to the point of stupidity, and not creating any consequences in society.  Do you know who Michael Shellenberger is?

Natalie Brunell: Yes.

Peter McCormack: You've interviewed him?

Natalie Brunell: I've talked to him on Twitter, because I've done stories on the homeless and he has gone out on the boardwalk and saw the tent cities and the drug city that was here in Venice.

Peter McCormack: Have you read his book?

Natalie Brunell: I haven't read his book, no. 

Peter McCormack: Actually, he's got two -- I don't know if he's got more than two books.  There's two books I know of.  I disagree with his book on global warming, and I've researched that and I disagree with him, I think he's wrong there.  But his book, San Fransicko, talking about the issues in San Francisco and talking about the drug problems, I think he's on point.  He did a fascinating interview with Joe Rogan talking about these issues and talking about how he thinks these issues can be solved, the issues of crime, homelessness and drugs.  He basically comes to the point that there needs to be consequences.

Natalie Brunell: There's no consequences, exactly.

Peter McCormack: There's no consequences.  But there are, Natalie, there are consequences to everybody else.  There's consequences to the fire department which has to deal with these people, there's consequences to the hospital that has to pay for this, there's consequences to society, there's consequences to San Francisco, where people cannot park their cars on the street, or they're just migrating out of the city.  So, there are consequences for everybody else.

Natalie Brunell: Exactly.  There's a really good movie, I think, if you're interested in this topic.  It's called Seattle is Dying, and it focuses exactly on this problem which exists in all these major urban cities.  But a lot of the firefighters and cops that I interviewed, they really, really love the message in it, because again, it's about how a lot of this really is a drug and mental health problem that you have to address, and there has to be an avenue where, at some point, the person's not able to make this decision and you have to place them somewhere.

So, I'm not saying jail is the right place, because that's where, in the past, some people were taken to jail.  But we don't have mental health institutions, because all of that got defunded, and they were seen as the whole To Kill a Mockingbird, they were all seen as just the horrible institutions, where everybody is not taken care of.  Well, maybe we need to change that and divert some more capital to recreating that system, because how are you going to get out of the system and what's the best-case scenario?  You're going to stop doing drugs to, what, become a barista at Starbuck's? 

There's no consequences for living on the street and going to the bathroom on the street and doing the drugs you want, because you're getting free money from the government.  What will pull you out?  How?  So, in Seattle is Dying, they have this system where they analyse the problem in Seattle, the talk to a bunch of people that respond to the issue, they saw how big of a drug problem it was.  Then they flew to a place in Rhode Island where it was kind of a system of strikes, where eventually you basically go to jail, or you go to this facility where you have to get help, and they medicate you and they basically get you operating functionally again.

These people that they interviewed, they were like, "If someone hadn't forced me to just get help or to get on this medicine, I would never have done it.  I'd have still been on the street right now in that tent".  But we're not allowed to do that, because that's against civil rights.  It's human liberty, but yet we don't have the liberty to not wear masks, or whatever.  It's so messed up!

Peter McCormack: Well, there's a show, you're going to have added to the show we're going to be making soon, a topic that came out of my conversation with Vijay Boyapati.  I said one of the things that worries me about absolute liberty is the net effect.  What is the net effect if you don't have a police force, but you have private security forces?  Does that mean some people can't afford security, does that mean you have rich and poor zones?  What is the net effect of absolute liberty; what does it mean for civil rights; what does it mean for human rights; what does it mean for equality of opportunity; what does it mean for women's rights; what does it mean for minority rights?  These are all things that worry me.

So, we've decided we're going to make a show, and it might end up being a couple of shows talking about and discussing absolute liberty, what are the risks, what comes out of it.  And for me, I think I don't want to burn down the system just because, at the moment, the system's broken.  I want to look at ways to reinforce the system and make it better, because I believe that a well-coordinated and organised society can help people and it can make the world a better place.

So, that idea of absolute liberty, for people who are shitting on the streets and taking drugs and taking resources away from taxpayers, to me it doesn't make any sense, and I think to most people it doesn't make any sense, and I would be questioning the ACLU and saying, "Are you fucking stupid?"

Natalie Brunell: And also, I know there are people with good intentions, because you don't want to be the mean person that's taking the homeless person and forcing them to do something.  Well, is it nice to allow them to continue to overdose every single day on the street and live a life of just complete devastation, where they don't have a bathroom, they're not clean, they have no access to anything, except basically drugs and sitting around to do nothing?  That's not kind, that's not helping the fellow man, it's just backwards.

Again, when you start to boil it down, I don't think we would have this ballooning problem if there was more access to opportunity, economic opportunity, which ultimately goes back to our fiat system that I think affects everything, from these types of issues to family life, family, dating.  You and I have texted back and forth a little bit, it's just transformed everything.  And I really hope that by ushering in this option of returning to sound money, we can change some of those problems.  It will take a while, but I really have high hopes.

Peter McCormack: You're on a mission?

Natalie Brunell: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Well, Natalie, you know I adore you, you're a really good friend of mine and I would do anything to help you on your mission.  Anyone listening, check out Natalie's show, it's fucking brilliant and she's the best.

Natalie Brunell: Thank you.

Peter McCormack: And congratulations recently.  Like I say, you've been crushing it.  Lots of people are recognising you've been crushing it, and I just wish the best for you and anything I can do to help, you have my number, you can reach out to me any time.

Natalie Brunell: Well, thank you.  I look up to you, your show's amazing.  Congratulations on your team, on your big production, it means a lot and this feels very full circle, since you were my first guest.

Peter McCormack: Thank you.  Well, listen, all the best and tell people where to find your show.

Natalie Brunell: Coin Stories is on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all the podcasting platforms, and I'm very active on Twitter @natbrunell.

Peter McCormack: All right, awesome.  Good luck, take care, and I'm going to see you on Saturday.

Natalie Brunell: See you Saturday.

Peter McCormack: See you Saturday.