WBD423 Audio Transcription
Emancipation From Financial Patriarchy with Anita Posch
Interview date: Friday 12th November
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Anita Posch. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.
In this interview I talk to fellow Bitcoin podcaster, author, advocate, and educator Anita Posch. Anita explains how Bitcoin provides emancipation from financial patriarchy at both the individual level and nation state level. We also talked about Anita’s educational work in Africa, the importance of building bridges and trust with communities in developing nations.
“Everybody says ‘yeah, it’s great for people in Kenya, or Zimbabwe’, but then everybody’s just interested in the price, and what Elon Musk is saying again.”
— Anita Posch
Interview Transcription
Peter McCormack: Anita, hi, how are you?
Anita Posch: Hi, Peter, thanks for having me. I'm fine, and you?
Peter McCormack: Good. Well, you're always welcome on my show. I haven't got to see you in ages, it's been so long.
Anita Posch: Yeah, it's true. I actually can't remember. It must have been in 2019 or so?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's like this lost two years we have right now.
Anita Posch: Exactly.
Peter McCormack: How's it been for you?
Anita Posch: Oh, well, interesting. Also, a little bit exhausting for me too. I mean, I wrote my book.
Peter McCormack: I know.
Anita Posch: I did a lot of podcast interviews, set up a little home studio, and I even think I worked more. Actually, it wasn't that good for me, because without the travelling, you're always on your computer, working, doing interviews, having new plans and ideas, and with the lockdowns back then, it was hard because my swimming pool here was closed. So, I tried to cycle, so all the stress sets up. But yeah, it's actually the same for everyone, but I'm happy that we can go out more now again.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. Well, I've just been out on my bike this morning, which is why I'm all like this. I've just decided to get back on my bike and have a shower and talk to you. But I'm feeling fresh and energetic, but yeah, it's been a long two years. And you're like me, you like to travel, you want to go to places and meet people and see them in person.
Anita Posch: Exactly, and that's what I'm going to do, because tomorrow I'm going to El Salvador, and I'm planning for next year. You can remember, early 2020, I was in Zimbabwe, and I want to go back to Zimbabwe to see what has changed in the last years. And also, I'd like to translate my book to Shona and Ndebele, the languages that are spoken there, and try to do a little bit supporting the educators there, because I don't think that I should go there, because you actually need to go in the smallest villages and explain how Bitcoin works to the people, as it is happening in Bitcoin Beach in El Salvador, and that's not what I'm going to do; but I would like to support them bringing educational material, knowledge and stuff like that.
Peter McCormack: Amazing. There's so many things there to already unpack. Let's talk about El Salvador first. I'm not going to go, because I've just been away for three months, and I was in El Salvador as part of that trip. I've had to choose to miss this one, just because I've got too much on and I need to spend some time with the kids. But you must be looking forward to going?
Anita Posch: Oh, I'm looking very much forward. I'm very curious and at the same time, yeah, we'll see how it is. Does it really work? What do the people on the ground really say, because I understand the hype around it and I feel it's great that it happened. We have the first nation state that has adopted Bitcoin as legal tender, which is surprising, and at the same time, a bold move. And I think it can help them very much, even more with their geothermal electricity that they have. And they now basically have an asset, and a natural resource, that they can sell abroad, which I think is fantastic.
But also, I hear a lot of complaints on Twitter that Chivo wallet is not working and the ATMs don't work. I think it needs time. I mean, to roll something out from one day to the other is a huge effort and of course, things don't work out at the beginning immediately. But there's also, I think, kind of a note to Bitcoin from people, because I also understand that for them, it was forced upon; they didn't learn about Bitcoin, they didn't know what it is, they are scared, of course I understand, and they have this experience from 20 years ago when the US dollar was adopted as legal tender from one day to the other, and a lot of people lost a lot of money.
So, I understand both sides, and actually I'm looking forward to seeing how it really works, and also great to be somewhere where it's warm!
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it is warm, it's beautiful there. And you have to have pupusas! So, it's really interesting. El Salvador can be both underwhelming and overwhelming in terms of Bitcoin, depending on what your expectations are, because I think sometimes some people might go there expecting it to just suddenly be this Bitcoin country and everywhere you go accepts Bitcoin and understands it, which isn't true.
But at the same time, you can go to Starbucks, you can go to McDonald's, you can go to Walmart, you can go to all the major retailers and they will accept Bitcoin. You go to Bitcoin Beach, and it's like this whole village gets Bitcoin. But I personally think it's amazing. I've had so many good times there, you're going to have a great time; you're going to love it.
So, you wrote a book. We should talk about that, because that's not a small thing. Now, let me ask you, because people have approached me about writing a book a few times and offered to do it for me. Did you do it yourself and write every word?
Anita Posch: Yeah, I did it myself. I wrote one in German in 2018 already, and then I thought, "Okay, I think it's time to do an update, and also put more content inside", like why Bitcoin? What is the Petrodollar? How is money made at the moment? What is fiat money, and things like that? What are also the problems for billions of people to access the system?
So, I thought, "Okay, I'm just writing additional content and I will be finished soon". But yeah, writing a book is really a big project and actually, I was also asked by someone if he should write my book and I can buy it from him, and I said no, because I mean, I write a book, or do I not write a book?
Peter McCormack: How much work is it? Do you have to set yourself a discipline of 1,000 words a day, or something?
Anita Posch: No, I didn't do that. But I have like, in three weeks, I want to be there, or something like that.
Peter McCormack: Wow!
Anita Posch: No, it was much longer than three weeks; it was like three months!
Peter McCormack: I was going to say!
Anita Posch: Three months, or something like that. I can't say it in detail, because then we had several deadlines. Like, I was working together with Sovereign and their team. They sponsored the print and the typesetting and the translations, which is great. And so, I had an editor and a graphic designer and illustrator and things like that.
So, yeah, it took like half a year or something, and the English version was released, published, in July this year. And this week or last week, I published a Spanish version. So, I had two guys who translated it for me. And at the moment, we're working on the German version, which I want to bring out before Christmas.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, definitely, you have to get the German version out. But Anita, there are so many Bitcoin books, there are a lot now, and a lot of really good ones that get recommended. So, what's yours about? I know it's (L)earn Bitcoin, you're teaching people about Bitcoin, but who should be buying your book, or who should we be buying it for?
Anita Posch: Okay, I think it's a book for beginners. Actually, it would have been the book I would have wanted when I started out, because I think the great thing about the book is you have the theory, you have the questions of why Bitcoin, and then you have the practical part. So, it basically leads you to self-sovereignty, to hold your own keys; that's the goal. So, get people from being pre-coiners to bitcoiners who at least have their own keys.
So, the next step, of course, in this staircase to self-sovereignty is your own node, where you also verify the rules and your own transactions. But I think that's, for a beginner, too much. So actually, it's just getting people into Bitcoin, to try it out, to decide, "Do I want to use it; does it make sense for me?" and then you really have recommendations for wallets and how you use a hardware wallet, what to do, how to learn by doing, how to secure your computer also and passwords, what are safe passwords, and the ledger scam, for instance. The ledger hack is a part of it that you buy your wallet without your own personal address, so yeah, things like that.
So, it's a comprehensive pack for starters and also for people -- I meet a lot of people who tell me, "I have Bitcoin already" and I then say, "Okay, and do you have the keys for it?" and they say, "No?" And I say, "Actually, then they are not your coins". And many people understand that very fast. So, yeah, that's the book.
Peter McCormack: Have you tested it on anyone? Did you test it on your partner or your friends or family?
Anita Posch: The book, you mean?
Peter McCormack: Yeah. Did you test it; did you see if anyone came out self-sovereign at the end?
Anita Posch: You know, my partners and friends, they are already not in the rabbit hole, but I've got them where they need to be!
Peter McCormack: Yeah, do you know what I should do? I should test it on my children. Maybe my son, he's 17, he's about the right age now.
Anita Posch: Yeah, he can read it. I mean, 17. Your girl would be too small, I think, but your son should be able, yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, but she's the one who wants to. She's the one who texted me recently while I was away and said, "Dad, can I buy some Bitcoin with my money?" and I said, "Yeah, sure, why?" She said, "Well, I want to go shopping tomorrow and I haven't got enough money. So, if I buy some today, I'll have more money tomorrow"!
Anita Posch: Yeah, but she gets it. I mean, how old is she?
Peter McCormack: She's 11, but she's orange pilled. She's a bad ass!
Anita Posch: Great, yeah. Of course, what else can you children be than orange pilled?
Peter McCormack: Well, I haven't got my son there yet. He's getting there, he's getting closer, but he's like a carefree artist. He's like, "I don't care about money, dad"! But I might give it to him. I'll say, "Listen, if you do this and you read the whole book and become self-sovereign, I'll give you £500 of Bitcoin"; there might be a good test there.
Anita Posch: That would be cool, yeah.
Peter McCormack: He probably still won't do it.
Anita Posch: I'll read it for you and you give me £500!
Peter McCormack: I mean, I'll try. Let's see what we do. Anyway, listen, there's always loads to talk to you about, because you are a very different voice in the Bitcoin space, and I love the fact that you keep travelling out to Africa. It feels like to me, Anita, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels like a lot of what you want to do is you want to go to communities that you feel really need Bitcoin; this is why you like going out to Africa, because people do have economic issues in Africa, there are issues with currencies in Africa, and you also like to go and help females in these communities, help support them to become self-sovereign. So, I feel like you're almost a lone voice dedicated to doing this.
Why is it you've decided to focus so much on doing this, because there are easier places to go and teach people about Bitcoin than into the heart of Africa; why did you dedicate yourself to this?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think the only one I know is Alex Gladstein. I mean, there might be other people too, but yeah, you're right. Why? Because fairness is something which is very important in my life, or has been very important in my life, and I have a big sense for inequality, or maybe let's say unfair circumstances; or, I don't like hierarchy.
I live in a patriarchy and me and my female friends, we feel every day how our chances are worse than those of guys in general, yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. Well, talk to me about that, help me understand, because let me give you an example story, which is going to sound like a brutal story to explain, but something that helped me understand that life is slightly different for females. I don't know if you know, but last year a friend of mine was murdered in London, a young lady called Sarah Everard. It's going to sound particularly brutal as an example, but one of the things that came out of that was talking to friends and female friends about, one of the things they have to think about is constantly about their safety. It's something that I don't have to, walking along the street, going out.
They were explaining to me things like, when they go out, they sometimes wear trainers rather than shoes, because they might feel they need to run; or, when they're walking late at night, they keep keys in their pocket, and they have the keys literally between their fingers in case somebody attacks them. It's something I totally wasn't conscious of, or aware was a huge deal. I was obviously aware it's different circumstances. So, sorry to use that as a very brutal example, but it was something that helped me understand one aspect of life that's different for women.
Anita Posch: Yeah, but that's the thing. I mean, you have that permanently. And, I mean, you have a lot of violence in families with your partners. I mean, my personal story in my childhood also has something to do with male violence, so I'm very sensitive regarding that. I mean, Austria has a very high number of femicides, so basically women are murdered by their partners just because they are their women, and they are jealous, the guys, and women want to divorce and things like that.
We had a case here in Austria, a guy; a woman working in a small shop and he was mad at her. I mean, he went in, he put her on fire, went out and closed the door.
Peter McCormack: Holy shit?
Anita Posch: Yeah, and she died of course some weeks later. But every week, you hear about guys murdering their partners, their female partners. So, these are the worst examples of course, but what you're saying also, these examples with changing the side of the street when you're going in the dark, or for instance guys, when you're going home from a party and a guy comes up to you and says, "Hey, come on, why not join me, I'm going to this other party?" you don't know this guy. He thinks he's just nice asking, but for you, this is just creepy like hell.
So, these are the small things, and in your business life, you constantly have to repeat yourself much more so that somebody is listening to you; or, at the office, at conferences, if you say something, you're not heard. Three minutes later, a guy says the same thing and everybody says, "Yeah, right, right". So, these are the things that in our, let's say, developed world feel, or we women, many of us feel.
So now, think about how it is in other countries. I mean, in South Africa, I know there's something called "correctional rape". Lesbian women are raped to be hetero again.
Peter McCormack: What the fuck; really?
Anita Posch: Yes, yes. That's something that happens. Or, when I was talking with the women from the Feminist Coalition, Nigeria, the whole protest movement back then was against police violence.
Peter McCormack: The EndSars?
Anita Posch: EndSars, exactly. But it's of course also a country that's very bad in terms of gender equality, and you have that around the world. That's one reason why I say Bitcoin is emancipation from financial patriarchy, because you have more levels here. You have the level of your personal life; you live in a patriarchy, you might have a partner that's dominating you. In many countries around the world, women are not allowed to own property, they can't inherit, they are not allowed to open a bank account still, they don't get IDs that you need to open a bank account.
So, with Bitcoin, theoretically, and that's why I'm so interested in it, is the possibility that many women can have their own money in a self-sovereign way that nobody can take away from them, because it's basically a secret, or they can hold it as a secret.
Peter McCormack: So, if women in certain countries -- I'm blessed to live in the UK and spend a lot of time in the US. I mean, Europe has solved a lot of these problems. I'm not saying that the patriarchy doesn't exist, but there are a lot more freedoms for women in the west and having the ability to, as best, have equal opportunity in the workplace and have access to financial services. And I don't want to make out there aren't any issues, but you're talking specifically about countries where people are actually economically trapped, because they aren't able to access financial services legally, or because their husband won't allow them?
Anita Posch: Exactly, yeah. And there are many countries, like authoritarian regimes, where people simply are trapped, or if you live in Zimbabwe, you can't send money out of the country easily. If you have a business, you need to ask the central bank of Zimbabwe if you're allowed to pay, in US dollar, a foreign company that sends you goods. As soon as you have the US dollars on your account in Zimbabwe, on your bank account, you need to cash it out in 30 days, otherwise it will be changed into Zimbabwean dollars. So, they rob you basically of your US dollars, and that's happening there on a yearly or daily basis.
Two years ago, I think the US dollar, they said, "You are not allowed to use the US dollar anymore. Your US dollar accounts are being exchanged one-to-one from US dollar into Zimbabwean dollar. And, no worries, the Zimbabwean dollar will stay the same like the US dollar". I mean, everybody knew --
Peter McCormack: Yeah, that's a joke.
Anita Posch: Yeah, exactly! It's an absolute joke, but that's happening to people there on a daily basis. If you're in Zimbabwe or Africa, Ghana, you can't send money from Ghana to Zimbabwe, or from Ghana to Kenya. The banking services don't work like that like they work here. I mean, I can send you money okay over the financial traditional services. It takes time, it costs money, it might be difficult, but it works at least in a few days.
We also have problems, but they are incomparable to the problems that people there have on a daily basis. They really need to invest a lot of time and energy every day that their daily needs are solved, that they have the things they need, that their water is working, that they have power and things like that. So, it's unimaginable actually, and everybody there understands immediately what the difference between Bitcoin and the traditional banking system is.
Added to this emancipation from financial patriarchy, I don't only mean this on an individual level, I also mean this on a nation state level, because that's basically also what El Salvador is doing, you know, regarding their dependency on the US. This patriarchy, this financial patriarchy is centred in the US, because it's the global hegemon. So, with the petrodollar, they have the power, they set up the regulations, and those regulations drip into all countries of the world, so it's basically then a global regulation.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I mean I've witnessed that. I was with Michael Peterson in El Salvador, and he was wanting to buy a car at one point. He was explaining to me the difficulty he has getting dollars from the US into El Salvador, and the reason being is not on the El Salvador side, it's on the US side. It's tracking every single payment and the amount of information he has to give.
So, when you went out to Zimbabwe, were you running open programmes, or were you running specific programmes just for women?
Anita Posch: No, they were open programmes. So, I did two talks there open for anyone who wanted to join.
Peter McCormack: And infrastructure-wise, how well set up is somewhere like Zimbabwe for people to be able to start adopting Bitcoin? My assumption is, in terms of the internet, it's a mobile society, rather than a computer/laptop-based society?
Anita Posch: Yeah, it's definitely a mobile society, because they are one step ahead. They have this mobile money, called EcoCash, in Zimbabwe, M-Pesa in Kenya and other countries, so they already know how to use money and their mobile phone, they are used to that. And, in the bigger towns, you have internet connection, you have internet over your mobile. They are using also old phones, not Smartphones, but these Nokia phones, because you can text money basically there.
So, the literacy is there, the young people are very well educated. They of course use the internet. Internet is very expensive, so that's interesting. I asked them, "So, can you watch YouTube videos to educate yourself; is this something that you can use?" and they said to me, "No, because internet is so expensive, it's better to have text or audio or something where we don't need that bandwidth".
Of course, outside bigger towns, you sometimes don't have internet and, yeah, you can't use Bitcoin, but this is how adoption takes time to roll out with technology.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think sometimes we can get very excited about Bitcoin price going up, and maybe Tesla adds it to their balance sheet, or people want Apple to add it to its balance sheet. But actually, obviously even with inflation just quoted at 6.2% in the US and seeming quite high across Europe, it still feels like places like Zimbabwe and the people who live there need Bitcoin way more than we do in the US and the UK, and that's not to say we don't need it; we have our own issues and everyone has the freedom to use Bitcoin. But it feels like we, as a community of bitcoiners, are possibly not spending enough time dedicating ourselves to providing resources and help for people in these countries.
I know you're doing it and you're doing an amazing job, and I've visited and Alex Gladstein is definitely doing a lot of work, but it feels like do you know what, Anita, when I do a show covering these topics, the downloads aren't great. And that's not to say people aren't doing this. I know people are doing work, but it just feels like, and you probably have an idea about this, but we should be doing more.
Anita Posch: Yeah, we definitely should be doing more, and funny that you say that, because that's why I think one of the reasons why my downloads aren't very high, because everybody says, "Yeah, it's great for people in Kenya and Zimbabwe, yes", but then everybody's just interested in the price. And as you say, what Elon Musk is saying again. And, of course, it's also a fact that we shouldn't go there to Africa or emerging countries and tell them how it works. That would be the next form of colonisation that we don't want to do, but building bridges, talking about it, going there, showing them new technologies that they can use, for instance, or even understand that they think completely differently than we do.
For instance, these people don't need our ideologies, they need solutions to be able to lift themselves up. So, when I was there, I was talking with Aurra from Zimbabwe, and I said to her, "You know Bitcoin is self-sovereignty and freedom?" and she looked at me and said, "You know, we here in sub-Saharan Africa, we have something called 'ubuntu'. Ubuntu means you are responsible for your family, for your friends, for your community, and you need to work also for them, you need to share everything and this is how we live. There is no such thing as ego, like it's for me and my self-sovereignty".
So, I found that very interesting and funnily enough, well not funnily, but what I think is great is that there are also solutions coming on top of Bitcoin, or as an alternative to the Lightning Network, or to sidechains, that will help people to have their own community money, and without new tokens, and that's a great thing, I think.
It's called Minimint, it's from Blockstream, or they support the development, and basically people can set up a multisig and have distributed ownership. So, they lock Bitcoin in this multisig, have their own rules, like the Bitcoin consensus rules, so how can they be spent and things like that. You can then deposit Bitcoin and you get a redeemable note. With these redeemable notes, you can then pay, like have a circular economy in your own community, in a town, or in a family, or whatever, and everything is backed by Bitcoin. So, you have no inflation, but you can have your own small monetary policy, and I think that's a great way to scale Bitcoin for communities like that.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I'm just reading about this here on the Blockstream website; I've not even heard of Minimint.
Anita Posch: Yeah, it's very new. Adam Back tweeted about it, I think, end of October and it's in the making, it's not there yet. But I think it's a very exciting technology and possibility.
Peter McCormack: So, sorry, just trying to understand it, so a village could lock up some Bitcoin in one of these multisigs and it brings this Minimint project to them?
Anita Posch: Yeah, it's a mint, yeah, exactly.
Peter McCormack: It's a mint?
Anita Posch: You have basically this project, or the code, you can set up a multisig. So, this community and its independent members can set up a multisig together, and then they can redeem notes. They put Bitcoin into the multisig and then they can issue notes, which are redeemable.
Peter McCormack: It's like the gold standard.
Anita Posch: Yeah, exactly, it's like the gold standard. It's the gold standard on Bitcoin and you can use it in your community to have your own monetary policy then, because then you can say, "Okay, our note is now worth X from Bitcoin", or something like that, but it's still backed with Bitcoin; it's the Bitcoin standard then for your own community.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, so this sounds interesting. So, does it create its own token?
Anita Posch: No, it does not; it's not a token.
Peter McCormack: It's not a token?
Anita Posch: No, it's like a bank note that you redeem for gold, like the gold standard.
Peter McCormack: Okay, so you actually can create physical money from --
Anita Posch: You could, yeah. I don't think that the idea is to create physical money. I guess you have a wallet, and it's also very private; it's much more private than Bitcoin is.
Peter McCormack: But what is the note? Sorry, help me understand what the note is? If we lock the Bitcoin up, what is the actual note; what is it that I'm using to then spend this?
Anita Posch: To be honest, we've got to ask Adam!
Peter McCormack: I want to ask him. Let me have a quick read of this, because that sounds fascinating.
Anita Posch: Yeah, there's an article from Adam on their blog, and there's also a more technological article that's too technological for me!
Peter McCormack: "Blinded federated mints, Chaumian banks, to Bitcoin. Federated mints are a natural complement to existing scaling solutions, like the Lightning Network and the Liquid sidechain. Families or communities may prefer federated mints for a more local and streamlined Bitcoin banking experience, where running your own node, or using a full centralised custodial service, is neither available nor wanted.
"In addition to providing a community-focused custody solution within the Bitcoin ecosystem, federated mints preserve the privacy of members' identities, wallet balances and transactions through the use of blind signatures. The mint blindly issues a redeemable receipt or note that is then exchanged for Bitcoin. These blinded notes can then be traded between --"
I just want to know what the note is. It is an actual piece of paper?
Anita Posch: I'm not sure. It's a great question; I didn't think about that.
Peter McCormack: Because the interesting about this is, so one of the things that I've had a concern with about places like El Salvador, and maybe places where you've been travelling to, is that listen, I have Bitcoin in cold storage. People know I have a Casa Multisig. So, my Casa Multisig works that I have a key on my phone, and then all my keys are then distributed geographically, so to actually access the Bitcoin is a pain. But I live in the UK, I live in a developed western society.
If we're trying to encourage somebody maybe in El Salvador, in El Zonte, to adopt Bitcoin, a lot of the people there live in very small shacks that have very little security. So, I was thinking, "How do these people actually protect their Bitcoin? Is there a way of protecting their Bitcoin?" and I'm wondering if this is it, rather than these people running a node and having to try and think about multisig or hardware wallets, they instead just have the mint and it acts like a bank for them. It's fascinating.
Anita Posch: Yeah, I understand it the same way. Yeah, it's fascinating and you're completely right; we need more solutions that make it easier for people in these areas to hold their keys. We don't have that yet. In Zimbabwe, I think maybe two people -- no, I don't know, but I know of only two people who have a hardware wallet, because I brought it to them, because you can't buy it basically. And, yes, I think that could be one of those solutions.
Peter McCormack: I'm looking at a tweet by Eric Sirion.
Anita Posch: Yeah, he's the guy working on it.
Peter McCormack: "I just bought a delicious coffee using Lightning. Paid anonymously via Minimint Chaumian e-cash federation". Look at the pictures. So, it's taking a photo of something and it's just then a bunch of code. Do you know what, I'm going to talk to him. I think I'm going to get him and Adam on and talk about this, because this sounds fascinating. I want to understand more about this. Wow! Well, I've learnt something new today, Anita.
So, what are the other challenges you've found in places like Zimbabwe?
Anita Posch: They don't trust technology from the west.
Peter McCormack: That's fair.
Anita Posch: They also didn't trust the internet at the beginning, so of course, it's very fair. And also, there are a lot of scams, so education is really very important there. The OneCoin scam is still going on.
Peter McCormack: I know, can you believe it?
Anita Posch: I mean, yeah, I can believe it, because if you don't know and your neighbour tells you, "It's a great thing, do it, I earned some money", then you also do it. So, yeah. And of course, the technical solutions as we've just spoken, there's not everywhere you have a reliable internet connection, so how do you want to pay with Bitcoin if it's not possible?
Also, the thing is with Lightning, it gets better, because now people who don't have enough money to buy Bitcoin on chain, because they only maybe are able to save like $2 a month, they can basically now also buy Lightning if they want to. So, we see that with Lightning, I think that Bitcoin is going to become more a medium of exchange again than it has been, or it still is as a digital store of value, which is of course very important and will be also a very important use case in the future.
But I see it personally, you know. I'm much easier spending Lightning than on-chain Bitcoin, because I have Lightning wallets on my phone where I have $50 in Lightning, and then yeah, I pay for a coffee, or I buy a ticket for something with Lightning. But with on-chain, it's like spending from my savings account. Lightning is spending from my wallet that I have in my bag for daily purchases.
Peter McCormack: Let me tell you something interesting about my Lightning wallet. I put $400 in there about a year ago. It was about a year ago, and I think it was when I was going out to El Salvador. I was like, "That will serve me, that will be enough for me for the year and then I'll top it up next year". Then Bitcoin went absolutely mental and by the time I got out there, it was like $4,000. Every time I'm there, Anita, I'm constantly spending from my Lightning wallet. It's now $4,500.
It's actually got to the point now where I'm going to have to withdraw some, because I don't want to walk around with that much on my phone! I was like, "Wow, if I get this right, I might have a wallet that I never can actually spend all of it!"
Anita Posch: That would be cool, yeah, exactly! That's also the thought of many people, I think; can they stop working now, or should they go on; because, is it enough, or is it not enough?
Peter McCormack: It depends on what you like. So, let me ask you, because one of the trickiest things I find when I'm talking to somebody new about Bitcoin, brand new, is trying to explain what Bitcoin is, and also at the same time explain what the basechain and the Lightning Network is. It's a lot. How did you cover this in your book; how much did you cover Lightning?
Anita Posch: Actually, not very much, because it's in the book. So, I have a very short chapter about the Lightning Network, but I think beginners don't need to understand the technical differences. They need to understand that if they use an on-chain or a Bitcoin transaction, that they at the moment need a different wallet, that there are seeds and things like that.
But I think, in the coming years, we will more and more see how these two are getting integrated. Like, with the Muun wallet, you have Bitcoin on-chain and Lightning. So, I'd rather say that Lightning is for small amounts, it's fast, it's private; and on-chain is like your savings account. So, I don't make a big difference in the book. Of course, I'm talking about it and I'm listing Lightning wallets, Bitcoin wallets, and a big part of the book is also the ways to earn Bitcoin.
There are a lot of developments in the Lightning space of course, to earn satoshis, so I think that's the -- I mean, earning Bitcoin on-chain is more like for people who have bigger payments, or bills like invoices. For me, for instance, my sponsors pay me in Bitcoin, so it's an on-chain transaction of course. But with podcasting, with the Sphinx app and the Breez and my podcasting 2.0, where people can stream sats to me, it's satoshis, because that's the streaming money that Andreas told us about already in 2015 or something like that.
So, yeah, I think these are the differences and I'm talking about those, but I don't have a huge chapter about the Lightning Network, because for regular people, that's not interesting. Yes, they need to know the difference, but that's it.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's one of those interesting things, the Lightning Network. For a long time, I kind of just dismissed it, because I was like, "I'm not going to spend my Bitcoin". And then, when I was in El Salvador, I put out this tweet where I did a little video showing all my transactions in my wallet and I was like, "This isn't about a novelty anymore; this is a convenience". It was just so convenient. Everywhere in El Zonte accepted Bitcoin. I didn't have to have cash, I didn't have to think about cash, and I just really enjoyed it.
But one of the things I was hoping for was this idea that the Lightning Network would be kind of abstracted away, that you'd just have this single wallet that knows what to do, a bit like Muun. But I don't understand what Muun does. Does it just give you a balance and you don't know what you're holding in basechain or Lightning, because I've not played with Muun?
Anita Posch: That's an interesting question, because I'm just using it, and I started to play around with it, and I saw that the Bitcoin addresses are much longer than the usual bc1 SegWit addresses, and maybe this has something to do with their combined Bitcoin and Lightning receive options or send options. But that's another thing that's too technical for me then.
Peter McCormack: And me!
Anita Posch: I only know that it works and, I mean, Lightning is Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, of course.
Anita Posch: It's not as different as a sidechain or something on top of a sidechain. That doesn't have to be Bitcoin. But Lightning and Bitcoin are one for me.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, that is fair, they are one. I just think sometimes, because you have to have different wallets and think about things differently --
Anita Posch: Yeah, I think that's now. I think in two to three years, we will have wallets where everything is in the one, except for people who run their own routing node at home. They will still have their own wallets to use them with their routing nodes and things like that.
Peter McCormack: So, when are you going back there next?
Anita Posch: To Zimbabwe?
Peter McCormack: Yeah.
Anita Posch: I plan in March, because there is also a conference in South Africa and I want to combine these two.
Peter McCormack: I was going to join you, but I'm in Texas in March, but I really want to go. That's annoying. Yeah, I can't go. Dammit.
Anita Posch: I mean, I haven't planned it, I don't know yet exactly when I go, so we can talk about that.
Peter McCormack: We should; I'd love to go. I don't know if you remember, I was meant to go to Africa about the same time as you. I'd planned to go to four or five countries and then COVID hit and I couldn't go and I was gutted, because I've not been to Africa, I really want to go. There's a few countries I want to go to.
Anita Posch: I mean, yeah, we can go together. Also, I would like to visit Ray from Paxful in Nigeria.
Peter McCormack: Well, Nigeria's the one I want to go to most and I've talked to Ray a lot about that. I also really want to go to Cameroon, I'd like to go to Senegal and I'd like to go to Zimbabwe, so let's see if we could make that work; that would be cool. I'd love to travel out there with you and then see that. So, where else is on your travels, where else have you got planned?
Anita Posch: Nothing more than that as of yet actually, because I need to get some funds again to go there to do all these translations and things like that.
Peter McCormack: What do you need; how much do you need?
Anita Posch: I don't know yet. I mean, I can't tell you now from the top of my head!
Peter McCormack: Right, go find out, you know I'll help you out. I'll sponsor you, I'll help you with that, let's get that done.
Anita Posch: That's very nice, thanks.
Peter McCormack: No, more than happy to help you, but any chance you'll come to Miami?
Anita Posch: I'm not sure. Isn't there something else at the same time?
Peter McCormack: I don't know, it's in April.
Anita Posch: I'll have to look it up. I only know that I'm going to the Oslo Freedom Forum at the end of May or something?
Peter McCormack: That's correct. Well, I'll be there.
Anita Posch: Miami, I haven't planned yet.
Peter McCormack: Well, maybe we'll see you. So, listen, when you've been out there educating people and spending time with them, what resources have you found that helped? Is it better to go and teach people to teach people; are you trying to create these hubs of individuals that you can leave behind who then can educate other people?
Anita Posch: That's the way I thought that is the best, yeah.
Peter McCormack: How do you find those people though?
Anita Posch: Peer to peer, really! I mean, you need to find people you can trust and who are interested and who want to do it. Then, I think those people know their friends, or which other people are capable and want to do it. So, you basically go from one person you know you trust to the next, and that's how I think I'm going to do it, starting with Aurra in Zimbabwe, who is a teacher and also a digital worker and entrepreneur, and she knows a lot of people. From there, I'll spread it like that.
Peter McCormack: But are there resources that we can be providing that help you or help people there?
Anita Posch: Great question. Wallets, I guess. Of course, books, but they have to be printed there, or we send it there. What else do people need?
Peter McCormack: We should think about that.
Anita Posch: We should think about it, yeah.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, we'll go with a plane full of resources.
Anita Posch: Yeah, I mean the last time I brought some Mesh Network devices, now I lost the name of the company, which was also great, because there are human rights organisations there. I brought it to one of those, because they can use it when the internet is down, because that happens very often actually also in Zimbabwe, or the government reduces internet connectivity. So, they now have these Mesh Network tools to set up their own internet or bandwidth so that they can communicate.
Peter McCormack: Do those Mesh Networks work well? I've heard about them, I've just never seen one in action.
Anita Posch: I guess they work well; I didn't try it. I couldn't; I wanted to. I mean, you also hear these things from like, the Blockstream satellite streams Bitcoin down to Earth and you can extend the reach through Mesh Networks. Sounds great and I think some people are really doing it, but this needs more time, and more people need to understand they might need it in case something happens. It's like with Bitcoin.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's a lifeboat. And, is the adoption of Bitcoin down there real; is it noticeable, or is it still very -- I'm trying to word it myself well, but you know what I mean?
Anita Posch: Yeah, I know what you mean. Back then, two years ago, when I was there, all the people I was talking with knew about Bitcoin. Some of them already used it, and I guess back then already, they have these small peer-to-peer groups on Telegram or WhatsApp or Facebook, because in Zimbabwe you don't have a Bitcoin exchange, so people are basically forced to use Bitcoin peer-to-peer, and you also don't know what the government is about to do, because you don't have human rights there.
People are taken away and you never hear of them again. You get fines when you say something on social media which is not good for the government, and things like that. So, people wanted to stay anonymous, and I don't know how this is today. But I know that much more people are using and exchanging Bitcoin for US dollars there, and there was $100 million in remittances last year sent into Zimbabwe.
Peter McCormack: $100 million?
Anita Posch: Yeah, in the regular way, in the legacy way. And, I'm curious how much it is in Bitcoin, but we'll never know.
Peter McCormack: So, if there are no exchanges, where do they get the liquidity from; are there local providers of liquidity?
Anita Posch: They get the liquidity by earning Bitcoin, or from remittances, and I think you can use local Bitcoin on Paxful. I think there's a loophole, you can use it, yes. And if you want to sell for US dollars, you have money dealers.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I was going to say.
Anita Posch: Yeah. You have a lot of money dealers there and it works easy. So, you meet up with them somewhere, this guy drives by, has the US dollar cash, has the Muun wallet. You send them the money, he sees the confirmation and gives you your package of US dollars and then goes to the next money deal.
Peter McCormack: So, is it a little bit like my experience in Venezuela in that there is a local Zimbabwean dollar?
Anita Posch: There's a black market, yeah.
Peter McCormack: But people don't really want it; they really just want USD?
Anita Posch: Exactly. They know that US dollar is hard money and that's the same, they understand that for Bitcoin too. But of course, everybody knows about the US dollar and everybody wants the US dollar.
Peter McCormack: So, how much has the country recovered from the period of hyperinflation under Mugabe; has the local currency stabilised at all?
Anita Posch: No. I think it's the same as before, it's just other people, other faces. It's still a cryptocurrency. They are moving money out of the country and I guess they also move money out of the country with Bitcoin. I mean, we never know, but I can imagine that this is the case.
There was, just recently, an article that the Zimbabwe Government is thinking about adopting Bitcoin as legal tender; that's not true. They are thinking about blockchain and things like that, and I guess CBDCs maybe. And there was a rather -- I don't know what the right word for it is. The Finance Minister of Zimbabwe said, two or three days ago, regarding cryptocurrency and Bitcoin, that they will, "Ringfence this in the offshore financial centre so that it doesn't circulate locally"!
I don't know how they want to do that, but as you can see, they don't want their people to use it, because of course they know that they are losing power over their people if people start using cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. So, they try to ringfence it offshore!
Peter McCormack: Oh, man, these people, Anita! Well, look, I would like to come with you if I can. If we can make that happen next year, either way if I can't, just let me know on some of the costs and I'd happily sponsor you again. I think the work you're doing is invaluable. I think it's very cool that you're doing it, because not many people are. Obviously, Alex Gladstein is someone we both know and love and he's doing some great work as well, but I'd really like to support the work, so you should just let me know. Outside of that, tell people where to buy your book and where to follow you.
Anita Posch: Yeah, so my Twitter handle is @anitaposch, like my name. The book is at learnbitcoin.link. You can buy an e-book with Bitcoin, but you can also buy paperbacks on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and many other bookstores. If you would like to send me some satoshis, or help me financing, there's a link at anita.link/donate. I have a BTC pay server, so you can send some sats, or Bitcoin. And, yeah, I also have a YouTube channel, and not to forget my podcast! That's the Anita Posch Show.
Peter McCormack: Well, listen, I will put that all in the show notes. You let me know about this trip, I will help you in any way I can, and keep doing what you do. I always learn from you, so I always love talking to you and really appreciate the fact that you're doing this hard work when sometimes there are more exciting things that can be done. But I really appreciate the fact that you're out there doing this, and hopefully everyone will support you, and I definitely will continue to support you.
Yeah, love what you're doing, love you, take care, see you soon.
Anita Posch: Thank you very much, Peter, bye bye.
