WBD422 Audio Transcription

Deplatforming vs Free Speech with Laura Loomer

Interview date: Wednesday 10th November

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Laura Loomer. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview I talk to far-right political activist Laura Loomer. We discuss racism and religious discrimination, debanking and deplatforming, and the limits of free speech.

“It’s not just about me, it’s about the millions of people not only in America but around the world who are being completely silenced...and I just find that to be unacceptable.”

— Laura Loomer

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Hi Laura.

Laura Loomer: Hi Peter.

Peter McCormack: I forgot to press record, what a fucking idiot.  Okay, this isn't going to be my most popular interview.  After we met in Miami, some people asked me to speak to you and I said to you I would do it and I'd keep to my word, but when I put it out on Twitter there was some people who were vehemently against me talking to you.  They said, "I won't listen to that show", "You shouldn't do that show", etc.  So, people not wanting me to do it makes me want to do it, but I don't think we're going to agree on a lot today, but I don’t think we're going to disagree on everything so I'm happy to have this conversation.  How are you today?

Laura Loomer: I'm doing well, thanks for having me.

Peter McCormack: No worries, you are a dangerous individual according to Facebook.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, amongst other things.

Peter McCormack: So, we met in Miami.  I was obviously hosting, I was watching the interview between Alex Gladstein, Banking the Unbanked, he was having with Jack Dorsey.  I see somebody come out and start yelling, and obviously it was you, and I hadn't made the connection at that point, I didn't know your whole backstory.  I knew of you, I knew of the story of chaining yourself to Twitter.

Laura Loomer: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: So, I did my research afterwards and there's things I definitely want to talk to you about, but there's a lot I don't agree with you on.  Let's clear up Miami.  I got death threats after Miami, I got threated to have my face smashed in with a hammer, for violently assaulting you.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, I saw.

Peter McCormack: I don't feel like I violently assaulted you.

Laura Loomer: No, I mean, look you were preventing me from hopping up on stage, and I think from the camera angle it looks like assault, but you were kind of embracing me.

Peter McCormack: I was hugging you.

Laura Loomer: You were hugging me.

Peter McCormack: We had a hug.

Laura Loomer: You were hugging me and telling me, "I agree with you.  Come on my show, we'll talk about it", and you stayed true to your word and I appreciate that, because I think there's a lot to talk about, especially in the Bitcoin community and how the Bitcoin community has to position itself and whether or not it's hypocritical to be embracing Big Tech executives, like Jack Dorsey himself, who has a long history of censoring people and shutting people down, which is contrary to the philosophy of decentralisation, which is at the core of Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: Yes, this is a challenging topic, there's a lot of nuance to this and I think we're going to work through some of it.

Laura Loomer: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: I am a fan of Jack Dorsey and what he's trying to achieve with Bitcoin.  I have my issues with Twitter.  I am not sure how I feel about a sitting president being removed, being deplatformed, but I think it's challenging.

Laura Loomer: I'm not really sure how I feel about a sitting president being removed or the fact that the Taliban has access to these social media sites.  I mean, I definitely know how I feel about it, but look I think that it's pretty absurd what's happening right now in our country and around the world where the leader of the free world is banned, and then you have terrorist organisations, Islamic terrorist organisations, that have access to these social media sites. 

Then, people like myself who were just simply exposing antisemitism are banned for criticising an elected official, and then having my own congressional campaign completely interfered with by the Big Tech social media giants in the middle of a pandemic.

Peter McCormack: I think the two issues at hand here is, what is free speech; and should companies such as Twitter, Facebook and YouTube allow anything; and where is the consistency in the decision making?  I also have been -- I mentioned to you before we started, there's a lot of people who are getting banned from YouTube.  Bret Weinstein who I've interviewed a couple of times who I like most of his work, I don't agree with him on everything but I really enjoy talking to him, he has been removed now from YouTube.  There are people within the Bitcoin community who have removed from Twitter and YouTube. 

I try and understand how it works, some more research I've got to do, but my assumption is for something like YouTube, you can't have people sat there manually watching every interviewer.  So, I'm assuming they're using algorithms and the algorithms are reading the content, flagging it and then there's a human decision perhaps at some point, but I have no idea.  But censorship is a big issue right now with large social media platforms and I do not know the answer.  I am just here to talk to you about it. 

We should probably -- we should do the backstory and we should talk about what you've been through with regards to censorship.  But before we get to that, the first question I really have for you is, free speech is all speech of course, but in the realm of platforms or social media platforms, do you believe that every single platform should allow anything to be said by anyone at any point, or are there some limitations to them?

Laura Loomer: These are American companies, Facebook, Twitter, Google.  These are companies that were established here in the United States of America and we have the Constitution.  I believe that the First Amendment of the United States Constitution should apply to these, they all have their terms of service.  Where they go wrong is when they start creating policies surrounding so-called hate speech.  Designating something as hate speech is contrary to the United States Constitution and rulings that have already existed by the United States Supreme Court, in which they found that there is no such thing as a hate speech exemption to the First Amendment of the United States.

So, I think that good policy would be to have it so that all constitutionally protected speech, even things that are offensive or something that somebody may view as racist or hateful, hate is very subjective, to be allowed online.  Where I draw the line is the incitement of violence.  I think that incitement of a violence is a bannable offence, but these companies would avoid themselves a lot of grief if they would just adopt constitutionally protected speech in terms of service policies.

Peter McCormack: How do you feel about private companies having the right to choose who can use their platforms and who can frequent their businesses?  For example, I have free choice who can come on my show and if I wanted to, I could cut parts of the interview, that would be my choice.

Laura Loomer: I think the problem that we are dealing with here --

Peter McCormack: Sorry, also let's just talk about say if you were to run any particular business, where customers come in, should you have the free choice for who can come and use your business?

Laura Loomer: The thing is we're not talking about regular companies.  We're not talking about small companies.  If you look at this in the scheme of the United States economy, we have an economy that is a little over $21 trillion.  When you combine the wealth of companies like Facebook, Amazon, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, it's upwards of $8 trillion.  Over a third of our economy is essentially dominated by a couple of men who also happen to be Democrat Party megadonors in Silicon Valley, in the tech industry who have created this abusive relationship with the American people and really all internet users around the world, in which our United States economy is now completely dependent on these five tech companies.

So, we're not talking about a small business relationship, we're talking about companies that are now creating pacts and contracts with governments, creating contracts with world leaders, being invited to the White House to create interfaces for the distribution of information during the COVID pandemic.  You don't really have a choice in this day and age.

The problem with Section 230 is they're abusing their Section 230 privileges, which is why I'm an advocate of completely repealing Section 230.

Peter McCormack: Explain Section 230, because I've got people who listen to this show from all round the world.

Laura Loomer: Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act was created long before these companies were ever in existence.  It distinguishes platform versus publisher protections, so basically these companies are immune to third-party lawsuits from content that their users post, because they call themselves platforms.  Where you become a publisher is when you begin editorialising your content.  

So we know we've seen in the Project Veritas undercover videos, Project Veritas where I used to work, we've seen Twitter employees and Twitter executives and even Mark Zuckerberg himself, who was secretly recorded during one of his company meetings, talking about how they have too much power.  They know they have too much power and they are implementing algorithms to specifically target Conservatives, to target Trump supporters and to target anybody who challenges their agenda or the agenda of the progressive radical left.

This isn't really even up for discussion, because it's out in the open.  I sued Facebook and I sued Twitter, I sued Google; I have sued these companies and my case went all the way to the Supreme Court.  A few months ago, the Supreme Court declined to hear my case in which I argued that these companies, Google, Facebook, Twitter and Apple were behaving as state actors.  So, they've really transcended the role of your typical private company and they're now behaving as state actors.  They have admitted that they themselves have more power than any elected body or any elected official.

When Jack Dorsey can, with a click of a button, decide to deplatform the leader of the free world in the middle of one of the most contentious election cycles, before a transition of power has even taken place, he's completed undermining the American electoral process.  When Mark Zuckerberg gets to decide with the click of a button that Donald Trump and all of his supporters and anybody and anyone who attended a rally on 6 January in DC, is a domestic terrorist and should be banned, he is supressing an election process and interfering in the free speech First Amendment rights.

We have a First Amendment protection in this country to peacefully assemble.  No one person in the world, regardless of where they're located, they all just happen to be located in Silicon Valley, should have that power.  This is why I've aggressively been a critic of people like Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg; this is why I handcuffed myself to the Twitter Headquarter office; this is why I went to Jack Dorsey's home and projected the names of banned individuals onto his garage in San Francisco, because they're committing human rights violations and that was the whole reason why I confronted Jack Dorsey at the Bitcoin 2021 Conference in Miami.  I thought it was the perfect opportunity to expose in front a community.  The Bitcoin community I wouldn't necessarily say they lean to any particular political ideology, it's quite mixed; I use Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: We're a diverse group.

Laura Loomer: You're a pretty diverse group and I have a lot of friends who attended the Bitcoin conference who are in the right-wing movement.  So, when he was on stage speaking with Alex Gladstein about banking the unbanked, and how Alex Gladstein calls himself a human rights activist, that is his whole schtick, how do you reconcile having Jack Dorsey speak at a Bitcoin conference about banking with the unbanked when he runs Cash App?  I am banned from Cash App, he has de-banked me.  I have been de-banked and deplatformed.  I have been banned by Chase Bank, I have been banned by Cash Up, PayPal, Venmo, GoFundMe, the list goes on and on.

How can you have an intellectually honest conversation when you're speaking to a man who claims to be a supporter of Bitcoin, because he has accumulated a mass of wealth, but then he's committing, in his own words, human rights violations by deplatforming millions of people.  Jack Dorsey has said, in his own words, he has said that, "Having access to the internet is a human right".  He said social media access is a human right.  So, if you, as a leader of a tech company are deciding to ban the leader of the free world and millions of his supporters, or just people in general for constitutionally protected speech, you are guilty of human rights violations.

Peter McCormack: I don't envy the position that Jack's in.  I will say to you now, I am a big supporter of his, because I love everything he's doing to support Bitcoin and promote Bitcoin.

Laura Loomer: Right, but at the end of the day if you're really supporting something and you're promoting something, don't you want to have representatives and advocates who are actually true and principled in their values?  The whole thing that drew me to Bitcoin, as somebody who is deplatformed, and trust me I would be homeless if it wasn't for Bitcoin; I paid my bills at a time when I had no income coming in, when I was banned on PayPal and I lost 90% of my income as an activist and an independent journalist, I survived and paid my bills on Bitcoin.

How do you position somebody like Jack Dorsey, who I call the King of Censorship, as a Bitcoin advocate when he's destroying people's lives?

Peter McCormack: There's some nuance and complexity there I think we should work through, because Bitcoin itself is very different, Bitcoin isn't a company.  Bitcoin is a decentralised protocol, which --

Laura Loomer: Right, and the whole point of decentralisation is that no one person controls it and it's supposed to be censorship resistant, contrary to Big Tech terms of service.

Peter McCormack: Let's work through that.  I can't even pretend to understand or know what it's like to run Twitter, Facebook, YouTube or whatever and I am critical of some of their decisions, but there are some things related to specifically, let's say Twitter, where it feels like people think tagging at Jack becomes a customer service line.  I have no idea what it's like for him to go into his mentions and into his notifications and see all these thousands, millions of complaints saying, "Jack, sort this out; Jack, sort that out". 

I don't know the decision making within Twitter, how much influence he has, I don't know how much shareholding he has now, I don't know how the team makes decisions there.  It might be that certain things are out of his hands, but I do think he sympathises with you.  What is it he says here, "I love activists, I respect Laura's desire to make Twitter better; I would not chain myself to a corporate office, but I respect that courage".  I think that's a nice thing to say and when you were trying to talk to him on stage, he was responding to you and he said he's interested in these topics. 

Laura Loomer: He should take a meeting with me then.

Peter McCormack: Maybe, maybe he will, maybe he won't; but the point is, I think he is wrestling with these difficulties around censorship and banning of accounts.  My assumption, and I hate to make assumptions on other people's behalf, are I think he's wrestling with the idea that this is a platform he is part of and he helped create and now is essentially the figure point for, but at the same time he knows there is a lot of good that come from social media and there's bad that can come from it. 

I think he wrestles with the bad because I actually believe he wants to create a better world and he wants to help other people, and I think he's possible wrestling with the difficulty of that, perhaps harm can be done, like some speech can lead to harm; the incitement of violence, etc.

Laura Loomer: What was the incitement of violence?  Donald Trump never incited any violence.  He never incited violence.  He never incited violence, he gave a rally and as the leader of the free world and the President of the United States, the Constitution protects the right to peacefully assemble and express your grievances.  You know what, I'll tell you right now that --

Peter McCormack: It wasn't a peaceful assembly though.

Laura Loomer: It was a peaceful assembly.  There is a lot of information coming out now, there are a lot of reports that these were FBI informants who staged the 6 January break-in into The Capitol.  I know that maybe you want to snicker at that and people will snicker, but the mainstream media doesn't report this and this is the problem that we're talking about.

You have people living in their own echo chambers, which is why our world has become so incredibly polarised, and I blame people like Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg who have completely excluded the conservative talking point.  They have completely excluded the conservative talking point.

Peter McCormack: I am going to disagree with you there.  I don't think they've excluded the Conservative talking point.  You can very easily go onto Twitter and Facebook and see the Conservative talking point.  I am very aware of the Conservative talking point, so I'm sympathetic to some and I'm sympathetic to people on the left as well.

Laura Loomer: They banned the leader of the Republican Party.

Peter McCormack: Yes, but they didn't close down the Conservative talking point, they banned one user.  It doesn't mean you'd still don't know the views of Conservatives or the opinions of Conservatives.  They haven't closed it down.

Laura Loomer: No, you get banned.  You get banned there's algorithms on Twitter that ban you if you say, "Trump won".  If you talk about election integrity or you say the election was stolen, you get banned.  Let's not even talk about politics, let's talk about COVID.  If you talk about taking Ivermectin, like Joe Rogan did, or I took Ivermectin, I had COVID a few weeks ago; you talk about HCQ, or you say you don't want to take the vaccine because people are dying, which is true, you get banned.  They're banning people for simply having open discussions.  This is wrong.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and a lot of that troubles me as well.  As I said earlier, when Bret Weinstein was removed from YouTube for discussing Ivermectin, that troubled me.  It does trouble me with people being banned for opinions in relation to COVID, because that's definitely been a moving picture in terms of what the understanding is of the effectiveness and the potential downside to taking a vaccine.  I'm vaccinated and I still firmly believe it's the right thing for me to do at my age and my children aren't; and I think it's firmly right for those.

This is where I think it gets a bit difficult, is where we go from the area of trying to protect people from inciting violence to becoming authorities on what truth is and the fact-checking side of things.  I think that's where it becomes particularly tricky, and I am troubled by that.  But where I see Dorsey different from Zuckerberg, I think Jack wrestles with these things.  I really believe that these are things he's concerned with and I would want to ask him what he thinks, what's his approach, how does he feel about this?  My feeling is he is somebody who does want a better society and he wrestles with this.

Laura Loomer: I see that Jack Dorsey -- they say that even a broken clock is right twice a day.  I saw recently that Jack Dorsey announced, when he was talking about Bitcoin, that he is working to build a completely decentralised social media network.  I love the idea; it's something that I think would be good to have a fully decentralised social media company, but how can you have a decentralised social media company as the head of Twitter and Cash App when you're banning people?  It doesn't seem like he can really separate the two.  For me that is a very hypocritical thing. 

You have to live, in my opinion, you have to live and not just preach the message that you believe in, but you have to walk the walk and talk the talk, and that's what I do.

Peter McCormack: What happened when you went up to his house?  Explain what happened.

Laura Loomer: Going on with what I said before I get into that, you have to walk the walk along with the talk.  The talk it's great, of course a decentralised social media network would be great, but what is he actually doing in his personal and professional life to prove that he is serious?

Peter McCormack: I mean he is investing personal and company money into supporting Bitcoin.

Laura Loomer: This goes back to the concept of decentralisation.  How can you be the head of Twitter and how can you ban people on Cash App, how can you continue to ban people on Twitter and not issue any public statements about it?  If Jack Dorsey really is wrestling with these ideas, maybe he should issue a statement about it.

Peter McCormack: He's given interviews regarding it.  I watched a couple recently.

Laura Loomer: I have never seen Jack Dorsey come out and apologise for completely polarising our nation by banning the Leader of the Free World and shutting down discourse, I have never seen Jack Dorsey apologise for interfering in our elections; these are crimes, election interference is a crime.  He interfered not only in the presidential election, but he also interfered in my campaign and I want to know how they justify having a policy, prior to me running for office that said that, "All candidates, congressional and gubernatorial in the United States of America can have access to Twitter"; and then when I filed to run for office, they completely changed their policy and say, "All candidates besides Laura Loomer"? 

Did you know I was the only candidate in the United States of America who ran for federal office last election cycle, who had no Twitter, no Instagram and no Facebook?

Peter McCormack: You had Gab right?

Laura Loomer: I had Gab and Parler.  Parler was great, I had 1.6 million followers on Parler and then look what happened to Parler.  Parler was viciously deplatformed.

Peter McCormack: I thought that was very strange as well, why that happened.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, viciously deplatformed in an orchestrated takedown between the FBI, Democrat politicians and companies like Amazon.  It was awful.

Peter McCormack: This is where it's tricky, because I agree with you some of these points and I think you articulate yourself very well, and then I come back to think, "Why is it that you seem to have this quite controversial polarising persona?"

Laura Loomer: Because really, honestly, this is how destructive social media is.  Jack Dorsey doesn't understand how destructive he has been.  Jack Dorsey has really brought a lot of trauma to my life.  He really has and I don't think he understands how he is personally responsible for ruining people's lives and defaming them and destroying their reputations.

Peter McCormack: How has he defamed you?  He seemed pretty nice here.

Laura Loomer: So, a lot of people think, "Laura Loomer's a white supremacist".  They don't know I'm Jewish; I am Jewish woman.

Peter McCormack: I know that.

Laura Loomer: I was banned from Twitter for posting a tweet in which I called Ilhan Omar anti-Jewish.  On 15 November 2017 --

Peter McCormack: Hold on, it was a little more.

Laura Loomer: No, I said she was anti-Jewish and pro-Sharia which I stand by.

Peter McCormack: What was the actual tweet, do you remember?

Laura Loomer: I sent it to you, but it said, "It's ironic how the Twitter moment of the day is a picture of Ilhan Omar.  Ilhan Omar is anti-Jewish and Ilhan Omar is pro-Sharia.  Under Sharia, women are oppressed and homosexuals are killed", a completely factual tweet, there is nothing wrong about that.

Peter McCormack: Did they give you a reason for that tweet?

Laura Loomer: They said it was hate speech.  She's an elected official, you should be able to criticise your elected officials.  Going back to how Jack Dorsey defamed me, in November I used to have a verified Twitter account and when I had my verified Twitter account, the whole purpose of having a verified account is so that if you're a public figure, you can tell people who you are without having imposters; because, If you're a public figure, the worst thing you could have is somebody posting something and then having it go viral and the media report on it, and it turns out it's just a fake parody account.

Then Jack Dorsey decides, after this Unite the Right Charlottesville rally, that he's going to strip people of their verification.  He decides to strip people like Richard Spencer, Jason Kessler, the organisers of the Unite the Right Rally of their verification marks, then he just threw me and Tommy Robinson into the mix.  I wasn't even at the Unite the Right rally.

Then on the Twitter banner, you know how Twitter has that banner where they show news headlines, the Twitter banner was, "Prominent White Supremacists are Stripped of their Verification Mark".  Guess whose photo they used?

Peter McCormack: Tommy Robinson is a piece of shit, you will not see me defending him.

Laura Loomer: Am I a white supremacist?  How do you call a Jewish woman a white supremacist?

Peter McCormack: I don't believe you're a white supremacist.

Laura Loomer: Right, and it took 30 seconds for my Wikipedia page to be updated with that photo and that Twitter banner, and to this day if you go it still says, "She had her Twitter verification removed because she's a white supremacist", and that's Jack Dorsey's fault.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I don't see you as a white supremacist, but I see sometimes how you say controversial things that may lead people to say that.

Laura Loomer: Controversial things are still protected by the First Amendment.

Peter McCormack: Of course, but I'm just talking about why I think it may end up with people thinking that.  It's like, you hold these firm opinions of Jack Dorsey which I disagree with, I see him differently.

Laura Loomer: You asked me how he defamed me, and I told you that's how he defamed me.  He never apologised for it, but when you are a branded as a white supremacist, and that's what Wikipedia says and then there's a million articles that print you're a white supremacist and they forever cite that, "She had her Twitter verification removed for being a white supremacist", that is very destructive to your life, it's destructive to your business and he did that to me four years ago, when I was 24 years old.

Peter McCormack: Do you not hold any personal responsibility for some of the opinions people hold of you may be your approach to things?

Laura Loomer: No, I take responsibility for my own actions, but that doesn't mean I'm a white supremacist or doesn't mean that, they always say that I hate Muslims, but if they were to actually look at my investigations and look at my work and look at my activism --

Peter McCormack: It's more Islam, right?

Laura Loomer: I'm a critic of Islam, I don't hate Muslims.  I have Muslims who worked on my congressional campaign last election cycle.  There was actually a Muslim for Loomer coalition, but because I have this aggressive approach where I confront people head on, with my camera, it was called "Loomering" they said that I was anti-Muslim.  Then they constantly extrapolate scenarios from my life and my career, particularly some incidents that happened with Uber, to falsely accuse me of being racist or anti-Muslim.  I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-Sharia, I'm anti-Islam.

Peter McCormack: I'm only going to quote you here, one of your Tweets, because we're going to get into those.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, that's fine.

Peter McCormack: "I'm late to the NYPD press conference, because I couldn't find a non-Muslim cab or Uber/Lyft driver for over 30 minutes, this is insanity".  I think that's racist.

Laura Loomer: How is that racist?

Peter McCormack: Because I think you're discriminating against Muslims.

Laura Loomer: Islam is not a race, so how is it racist.

Peter McCormack: Okay, okay.

Laura Loomer: Seriously, it is not just an issue of semantics.  When you label somebody as a racist, okay, you are saying that they are a hateful person or intolerant of a specific race.

Peter McCormack: Okay, I think --

Laura Loomer: That's what people need to understand is that if you're going to make an accusation against someone, you'd better understand the terminology that you're using.  You'd better understand the difference between race and political ideology, race and religion.  If I said nasty things about black people or Hispanic people, okay maybe that term could be applied, but Islam is not a race.

Peter McCormack: We have a term for people who are anti-Jewish which is antisemitic.

Laura Loomer: Right, but being Jewish is classified as a race.  It actually has been classified as a race.

Peter McCormack: What do we have as a term for someone who is anti-Muslim people?  Are we saying you are religiously discriminating against people?

Laura Loomer: They call them Islamophobic, but there's no such thing as Islamophobia, because when you look -- and this is the thing they call me.  They always say, "Proud Islamophobe, Laura Loomer".  I challenged them on that.  I always have to back up my statements and that's the difference between me and my accusers, is they don't have facts, and they don't understand, they haven't extensively studied the Koran like I have.  They haven't extensively studied the ramifications and the social and political and economic affects that Islamic immigration is having on Western civilisation throughout the world.  It's having tremendous effects in your homeland of the UK.

Peter McCormack: How?

Laura Loomer: Indisputable.  How?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: For starters, you have an importation of Islamic immigrants in the UK and all parts of Europe really, but we're experiencing this here in the United States of America.  You have now no-go zones.

Peter McCormack: Where?  Tell me a no-go zone in the UK.

Laura Loomer: You have no-go zones in London.

Peter McCormack: Tell me where?

Laura Loomer: Your Mayor, Sadiq Khan, himself has issued orders to police officers to not go into some of these neighbourhoods where they have their own Muslim police.

Peter McCormack: Tell me where there's a no-go zone.

Laura Loomer: I think that the best person to talk about this, who I think you should have on your show to talk about this, is Tommy Robinson, who himself has actually been sentenced to jail in the UK for exposing these Islamic no-go zones.

Peter McCormack: Hold on --

Laura Loomer: This isn't an interview about no-go zones.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, I know.

Laura Loomer: But to answer your question, the phobia, they say --

Peter McCormack: Hold on, if we're going to jump around, you talk a lot, I have to have my say.  You say you back up with facts.

Laura Loomer: Right.

Peter McCormack: You said there's no-go zones in the UK.  You can't name me one.  The only no-go zones in the UK I wouldn't go to are areas of London which are controlled by gangs, which are stabbing people.

Laura Loomer: Right, a lot of them are Pakistani gangs.

Peter McCormack: No.

Laura Loomer: There are Pakistani gangs and rape gangs.

Peter McCormack: Yes, no.  Again, you are confusing London with what was happening in the North of England, I think it was in Rotherham, I'd have to fact-check that.  That is a different situation.  Let's work through these.  The only no-go zones I know in the UK that I have are certain areas in London which are run by the drug gangs.  If you're going to say there's no-go zones, tell me, I'll go there with a camera and show you I'm there.

Laura Loomer: The fact of the matter is, places in Europe have been fundamentally transformed by immigration.

Peter McCormack: Hold on.

Laura Loomer: You have had -- let me just give you a couple of instances.

Peter McCormack: Laura, we've got to be fair here.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, we're fair.

Peter McCormack: I'm just saying if you know of no-go zones, areas which are predominantly Muslim areas that you think are no-go zones, tell me.  I'll go, because they don't exist.  That's not a fact.

Laura Loomer: We can talk about this but my point about Islamophobia --

Peter McCormack: I've just got to carry on.  You also said that Tommy Robinson was sentenced to jail for exposing -- what do you think he was sent to jail for?

Laura Loomer: He was sent to jail for exposing these rape gangs, these Islamic rape gangs.

Peter McCormack: What it is, there are specific laws in the UK with not revealing certain information with regards to people who are accused of crimes during trial, because if you do that, that can actually break the trial and it can actually lead to the prosecution not being achieved.  Those laws exist for a reason, to ensure that you can get the prosecution.  What he did is he broke those laws, it was fucking stupid and morally irresponsible and he has very little backing for that.

That is not to say that people don't look at these gangs and say, "God, these gangs are disgusting and terrible".

Laura Loomer: Yeah, they're raping small girls and children and killing people in the UK, it's horrendous, and this a direct result of the immigration.

Peter McCormack: Again, we are going to have to start keeping to a topic at a time.  These gangs, I'm pretty sure it was up in Rotherham and some other places, they were targeting young girls, teenage girls.  They were plying them with drugs and alcohol and they were sharing them around.  I don't know of a single murder within those gangs.  You said they were raping and killing them, I know they were supplying with drugs, I'm not sure they were killing them.

But the police, the prosecution service, want to ensure a prosecution of these people.  Tommy Robinson did things which could affect the prosecution, that's why he was arrested and went to jail, he broke the law.  Those laws exist for a reason and I think he was in the wrong.  That doesn't mean I don't agree with him that at some point these people need exposing, but the law exists for a reason, so Tommy is in the wrong there.

Laura Loomer: We can agree to disagree on certain matters, but going back to what you say --

Peter McCormack: What are we agreeing to disagree with there?

Laura Loomer: I don't really think that people who come into the country and some of them -- I don't know every single instance of every single gang member, but I do know that some of these people, just like there are many of them who are here illegally in the United States, many are there illegally in the UK as well.  I don't really think that those people who are guilty of crimes like raping, gang-banging, gang raping young girls, passing them around, destroying their lives, I don't think that they're really worthy of humanity.  I don't really think that --

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but you said we have to agree to disagree?

Laura Loomer: I don't think that Tommy Robinson's tactics are wrong.  I think this needs to be exposed, and if the media is going to be putting gag orders on this in the UK like they have and not reporting the names -- this is another thing they did in the UK too, where they reported the rapists as Asian.  That's not fair, that's not right, there's a big difference between an Islamic immigrant from Pakistan and then calling somebody Asian.  There's a big difference between Islamic and Asian.

Peter McCormack: What if the prosecution failed because of Tommy's actions?  Would you still support his actions?

Laura Loomer: How would it have failed?

Peter McCormack: Because there are -- I don't know that, but --

Laura Loomer: All he was doing was simply letting the people know who these people were.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but the reason they exist and the gag order exists is to try and ensure you get the prosecution, and that's as far as I know about this.  If I'd have known I would have fact --

Laura Loomer: It's a very strange way for gag orders, because the way gag orders work here in the United States is that the jury isn't allowed to speak to the media, but I find it to be rather strange that a gag order would prevent the press or anybody from even just reporting the names of people who actually were guilty of crimes.

Peter McCormack: All I'm saying is that law exists for a reason.  I don't know the answer now, I will doublecheck it, but that is a law we have that exists and he broke that.  Also, I think a lot of the -- I'm almost certain most of the people in Rotherham who were arrested were people who were natively born in the UK.

Laura Loomer: I'm not talking about every single case.  I'm not just talking about that case in particular.  There are lots of cases and we can go through them, but that's not the purpose of this podcast.  I am simply talking about how if you speak out about these issues, if you have an opinion about it or you post a story about it, if you are not perpetuating violence or advocating for violence, why is there so much hostility towards people having an open discussion and a debate; no one's getting hurt?

Peter McCormack: No.

Laura Loomer: We're having a discussion, you disagree with some things I'm saying.  Why is there this need to constantly shut down, and censor and silence and gag opposing viewpoints, specifically around this topic?  Just because you have a different opinion, doesn't mean you get to call the person who you're opposing a racist or a Nazi or a white supremacist or an Islamophobe.  That's unfortunately what they do and they work with these leftist organisations like the ADL and the SPLC.  I think in the UK your version of the SPLC is called, "Hope not Hate", or something like that?

Peter McCormack: Here we go, I think this is useful to get up, "Tommy Robinson could have caused Huddersfield grooming trials to collapse and child rapists go free.  'If jurors get to know of this video, I will no doubt be faced with an application to discharge the jury', the judge said before jailing Robinson in May".  We should add this, "Grooming trials that saw the largest gang ever convicted for years of sexual abuse were almost derailed by Tommy Robinson as he claimed to expose the crimes.  A judge paused jury deliberations in the second half of three linked trials over fears that the far right figureheads' livestream of the case from outside Leeds Crown Court could result in the case collapsing and the rapists going free.  Hundreds of thousands of people have watched Robinson, whose real name is Steven Yaxley-Lennon", which I always thought was funny, "talk for more than an hour about Muslims and jihadi rape gangs on 25 May", etc.

Let me just try and find the actual -- okay, "The video violated the blanket reporting restrictions, imposed by Judge Geoffrey Marsden QC in March, to prevent defendants claiming jurors had been prejudiced against them by reading about previous trials".  The judge put a gagging order because he didn't want to prejudice on the trial, and this is the judge trying to support the prosecution.  I mean he's trying to get to a fair, whatever the decision should be, but Tommy Robinson could have derailed the prosecution.  That's why it exists

We can agree or disagree with the law, but he broke the law and he could have derailed the prosecution.  So, he could have actually done the opposite of what he was trying to achieve, which essentially leads to these people going free, so I think it's important these things, we have to know why these laws exist.  The case law will be there to protect the trials, to ensure that you can achieve a prosecution and not derail these cases.  I wouldn't talk to Tommy Robinson because I think he's a dick, but I'm happy to talk to you about this.

Laura Loomer: Look, this is not an interview about Tommy Robinson, but I know Tommy Robinson, he's a friend of mine and I don't think that he's been treated fairly.  I don't think that it was right that when he ran for office in the UK, his campaign, similarly to mine, was also censored and he was not allowed to have access to social media.

These are issues regardless of whether -- I think we need to get past the point of regardless of whether or not you like a person, just like you are talking about the laws in the UK, our laws may be different here in the United States; but you are also entitled here in the United States of America to be able to campaign and run for office, you are entitled to run your election freely and I think that the same should have also been afforded to Tommy Robinson when he was running for office in the UK as well.  Whether it's here in the United States, or in the UK or wherever, these are issues that are impacting millions, I would say billions of people all around the world.

I think every single citizen of world was subjected, pretty much, to the COVID lockdowns and the mask mandates and the ramifications of being locked down.  We are now seeing, whether it's running for office or simply being an investigative reporter or an activist or a podcaster like yourself, having access to these different sites and being able to openly communicate and spread information is critical, and there's only a select group of people who are controlling all of that and that is my problem.

Peter McCormack: You are right, I would worry about losing my YouTube channel.  I would worry about losing my Twitter account, because they are part of my business, and I am not fully clear on why I might, what are the reasons I could; but at the same time, I would reiterate the point that if you're going to come out and say things like, "There are no-go zones in the UK", which by the way there aren't, it's false, then you are also disseminating --

Laura Loomer: I don't know, I'll have to talk to my friend, Raheem Kassam, who's also a fellow Brit and have him send you his book.  He wrote a book called "No-go zones", about these no-go zones in the UK.

Peter McCormack: Tell me where there and I will go there.  I will take a photo from there.

Laura Loomer: All right, sounds good.

Peter McCormack: Let's go back a step, because we do have this term for people who discriminate against Jewish people, and it's seen as largely abhorrent.  At the same time, I feel like you are discriminating against a group of people, Muslims.  I felt like that Uber/Lyft tweet, you're discriminating against all Muslims.

Laura Loomer: I was making a political point, I was making a statement and I talk about that in my book extensively.

Peter McCormack: What is the statement; what's to achieve?

Laura Loomer: The reason, there's context associated with that.

Peter McCormack: Sorry, let me explain why I want to ask the question, it's that you're running for office.  I believe the role of somebody who runs for office is for their constituents, whether they voted for them or whether they didn't.  You also talked earlier about stoking division and that you believe Jack Dorsey is stoking division, but I don't see how you can't see this is stoking division.

Laura Loomer: There's context, no one ever wants to talk about the context behind that tweet.  You see, we're in New York City right now and a couple of years ago on Halloween --

Peter McCormack: My birthday.

Laura Loomer: -- we're actually coming up on the anniversary.  Is your birthday Halloween?

Peter McCormack: My birthday is Halloween.

Laura Loomer: Happy birthday.

Peter McCormack: It's Sunday, yeah.  Got a little pumpkin here.

Laura Loomer: Happy Birthday.

Peter McCormack: Okay, you're on Halloween.

Laura Loomer: You can take that book as a present, I'll even sign it for you.

Peter McCormack: There you go, thank you.

Laura Loomer: Don't say I never did anything for you!  So, it was 2017, it was Halloween, so that's what, four years ago now.  If you recall, I don't know if you remember the story, but there was an Islamic terrorist attack in Manhattan.  And a Muslim man, who was working for Uber and happened to be an Islamic immigrant, he took a truck and he was an Uber driver and he rammed the truck into the bike lane and he killed eight people.  Then he got out of his car and he started chanting, "Allahu Akbar", pledged allegiance to ISIS.  He was working for Uber.

When this happened, the media was completely obfuscating the fact that this guy was an Uber driver.  You have an ISIS terrorist working as an Uber driver in New York City, unbelievable.  I was raising awareness about this on my Twitter and I was tweeting about it and I was wondering, "Why is Uber not doing anything about this, because this isn't the first time that this has happened"?  There's actually a documented history of Uber drivers, who are ISIS terrorists or Islamic terrorists, using cars in acts of vehicular jihad to kill people.  It actually happened in the UK, if you recall.  There was an Uber driver who rammed his car into Buckingham Palace and he said that he was on a mission to kill the Queen of England.  Maybe you have seen that.

Peter McCormack: I think he got out and he stabbed the policeman as well.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, I talk about it, it's all in my book.  There was another instance where a Somali war criminal, who had burned people alive and tortured people and was working as a war general to kill people in the name of Islam, he was an Uber driver in I believe it was Virginia, I talk about this all in my book. 

At some point you have to wonder why is there such a problem at Uber with these Islamic terrorists driving for them?  So, I wanted to make a point and I said to myself, "Well, let me try ordering an Uber, let me try ordering a Lyft".  Well, every single time I tried ordering an Uber or a Lyft, it would be Mohammed, Abdul; same with the taxi drivers.  Because I had 100,000 followers on my Twitter account at the time and I wanted to create discussion around Uber's safety protocols, to ensure that nobody else was ever murdered again by an Islamic terrorist Uber driver, I said, "All right, I'm going to tweet something really provocative, and I'm going to tweet that I'm late for the press conference because I couldn't find a non-Islamic, Uber, Lyft or cab driver", I said it.

Peter McCormack: How do you know Mohammed isn't Christian?

Laura Loomer: The guy had a prayer rug on the --

Peter McCormack: No, but I'm saying you said you looked at their names.  How do you know Mohammed's not a Christian?

Laura Loomer: You could argue, I guess, that maybe I was insinuating, but Mohammed is the number one most popular name in the Islamic community, and I believe in the UK there is a report that came out last year that said Mohammed is actually the number one most popular baby name in the UK now thanks to Islamic immigration.

Peter McCormack: I live there and it doesn't bother me.

Laura Loomer: I'm not saying it has to bother you, these are just facts, we're talking about facts.  Why should I, as a Jewish woman -- there is a study conducted by an Islamic expert, by the name of Dr Bill Warner, and he actually did a side-by-side comparison of the Koran and Hitler's Mein Kampf.   Hitler's Mein Kampf manifesto, written to inspire the genocide of Jews during the holocaust; and then the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam. 

He actually found, mathematically, that there was more Jew hatred in the Koran than Hitler's Mein Kampf.  So why, as a Jewish woman, should I have to subjugate myself to that; and why, when in the tenets of Islam, women are viewed as property, Jews and Christians are called Kaffirs, and are often enslaved and killed like the Prophet Mohammed encouraged them to do, why should I feel safe as a Jewish woman, who is outspoken about radical Islam, getting in an Uber or a Lyft or a cab driver when there's clearly no vetting process taking place?  I think that my safety matters.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so it would be helpful if I had a scholar here to respond to some of your points which you're making, because I can't answer them.  It's not something I can agree, approve or disprove in a scenario like this.

Laura Loomer: They can look it up.  It's Dr Bill Warner, he's a world-renowned scholar on Islam and he has done this comparison.  I just want to know, why should I, as a Jewish woman, have to potentially endanger my life when I had the unfortunate experience of seeing bodies splattered all over the streets of Manhattan because an Uber driver, who was also an ISIS terrorist, killed eight people?

Peter McCormack: Isn't this about vetting rather than discrimination?

Laura Loomer: But that's what I said to you, is I knew that my tweet was going to go viral and that people were going to have a field day with it, so intentionally tweeted it. 

Peter McCormack: It's a bit of a crass way to do it.

Laura Loomer: I intentionally incited provocation, because that's my whole style.  I often make a scene to make a point, that's what the whole Loomer brand is about; is making a scene to make a point or being provocative to make a point.  Obviously, it's a very provocative and charged statement.  I knew that when I tweeted it, that's why I tweeted it.

Peter McCormack: Do you ever think it doesn't have the effect that you really want, it's ultimately self-destructive?

Laura Loomer: Perhaps.

Peter McCormack: What is it you're trying to do, Laura; what is it you're trying to achieve?  I can say, "I'm trying to build a podcast and spread the knowledge of Bitcoin, and my goal is financial freedom, the more people who have financial freedom the better, have access to Bitcoin and can improve their lives".  I think that is a progressive idea to try and help people live a better life.  What is it you're trying -- that's what I can't figure out?

Laura Loomer: It depends, it's changed prior to being banned, and my mission has changed since being banned.

Peter McCormack: What is your mission now?

Laura Loomer: Now, my mission is to expose Big Tech tyranny and to hold the Big Tech social media giants accountable for election interference and silencing conservatives and to get elected to office, so that what has happened to me never happens to another American citizen ever again.  No American citizen should ever be completed deplatformed and silenced and stripped of their ability to communicate; no American citizen should just be banned and prevented from banking; they shouldn't be banned from being able to use payment processors just because of their political viewpoints.

Peter McCormack: I agree.

Laura Loomer: You shouldn't be targeted and banned from being able to own a gun, like I was.  Just like you're on a mission to make people's lives better, I'm on a mission to make people's lives better, I'm on a mission to make tech better.  In the words of Jack Dorsey himself, he says he even admires my desire to make Twitter better.

Peter McCormack: Didn't he make you a cup of coffee?

Laura Loomer: No, he didn't make me anything.  He was overseas.  I think he was on vacation in Myanmar.

Peter McCormack: What is it you want Uber to do and Lyft to do?  For me, this would be that they should be vetting.

Laura Loomer: I wanted them to be vetting so I created a policy campaign.

Peter McCormack: Laura, you sometimes have to let me speak.  I agree that there should be vetting, but also some people are going to be tricky and they're going to get through the vetting.  So obviously, there is a role for, I assume, the FBI to be supporting this vetting as well.  We have terrorist attacks in the UK as well, we have people who slip through the system, and it happens and it's sad because awful things happen.  We've had awful terrorist attacks in the UK.  We had the bombing at the Ariana Grande concert, we've had multiple stabbings through London.  We had the 7 July terrorist attacks, so it happens.

Laura Loomer: Who was responsible for those attacks?

Peter McCormack: Ultimately the person who pulls the trigger is responsible.

Laura Loomer: Who was it?  Was it Jews; was it Christians?

Peter McCormack: If you want to do that, we can go through the history of violence and talk about --

Laura Loomer: I am just saying, you asked me what my purpose is.  I'm trying to --

Peter McCormack: Who's responsible for the 1.5 million killed in Iraq?  George Bush, he's a Christian, I believe.

Laura Loomer: I'm no supporter of George W. Bush.

Peter McCormack: I'm just saying if you want to get at that, my problem is religion, just religion.  I think any form of religion is usually believing some kind of made-up nonsense.  Sorry if anyone's listening and is offended, I'm just not a religious person.  I think it's very easy to point fingers and blame acts on different religions.  You can point to -- it's like a really good example, if you try and talk about Israel and Palestine, you never get anywhere, because everyone thinks everyone else is to blame and they blame the other's religion.

Laura Loomer: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Christians have killed a lot of people in the world.  A lot of people have died at the hands of religion full stop.  I'm saying with regards to Lyft and Uber, what is it you want them to do, do you want them to vet and what should they be vetting on?  Or do you think there should be a filter within there that says, "I don't want to have any drivers who are Muslim".

Laura Loomer: I think that they need to be vetting.

Peter McCormack: Okay.

Laura Loomer: I had no problem with getting in Ubers with Muslim drivers prior to this.  I simply was making a political statement, a provocative statement to generate news coverage, to encourage Uber and Lyft to improve their vetting processes, because no one was talking about it and I thought that more people deserve to know that this guy was an Uber driver.  How many people are being raped by their Uber drivers; how many people are being killed by their Islamic Uber drivers?  I document this all in my book.  You talk about facts, of course, I cite it, there's footnotes in the book to these stories and you can see these instances.  These are real life scenarios. 

Peter McCormack: And I will do that.

Laura Loomer: There was a woman from the UK named Rebecca Dykes.  She was murdered by an Islamic Uber driver, she was raped and killed by an Islamic Uber driver because he didn't like the fact that her skirt was so short in the back of his car.  These are real things that are happening and so I don't think that it's hateful to bring this to people's attention.

Peter McCormack: I think your tactics are wrong.

Laura Loomer: That's where people…

Peter McCormack: I think ultimately, you're going to push people -- I think you could achieve more by taking a different approach.  I think the approach of saying, "I'm late to the NYPD press conference because I couldn't find a non-Muslim cab driver", you might think, "This is great because it's provocative and I'll get a lot of coverage", but I think people just go, "I don't want to listen to what that person has to say". 

For example, when this interview comes out, I'm doing it to respect the word I gave you, but I fundamentally disagree with your tactics.  I think you are stoking the same division which you accuse Jack Dorsey of, so I think some hypocrisy there.  But I think you make some good and interesting points; I think sometimes you just wrap it up in a bullshit way of doing it, sorry.

Laura Loomer: That's the issue.  I think people have to separate the person from the tactics.

Peter McCormack: But they won't.

Laura Loomer: They may not like my tactics, but at the end of the day I stand with the arguments I make, I believe in what I say and whether or not they like or dislike my tactic, it doesn't dispute from the truth of the situation at hand.

Peter McCormack: That's not the point I was making.  The point I was making to you is like it could be a net negative what you're doing and you're actually causing harm to what you're trying to achieve.

Laura Loomer: Perhaps it could also be a net positive.

Peter McCormack: I don't think so, I found that pretty distasteful.  There are other things, like I was trying to think, "Okay, why is that people have such an issue with Laura; what are the things that you've said?" and I'll give you another one.  Not to just completely pick on you but there's --

Laura Loomer: That's fine, I'm used to it.

Peter McCormack: No, I've got to be fair.

Laura Loomer: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: There was another tweet with regards to reference to 2,000 migrants drowning.

Laura Loomer: Drowning.

Peter McCormack: Your tweet was to clap and say, "Here's to 2,000 more".

Laura Loomer: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Can you not see how that is massively distasteful?  People are trying to escape -- so before the lockdown, I went out to Turkey to the border crisis at Greece to film what was happening, to meet the people and talk to them and like, "Why are you here?"

Laura Loomer: I was at Greece too.

Peter McCormack: People are leaving --

Laura Loomer: I spoke with Islamic migrants when I was in Greece too, doing undercover work.

Peter McCormack: These people are leaving places, it could be everywhere from Eritrea to Afghanistan, to Syria, people leaving war, they're leaving for economic opportunity and I'm not going to judge what every person's agenda is, but mostly people just want to have a good life.  I think if you're putting yourself in a dingy and all the money you have, and taking a baby, just to try and get in a country to have a better life, you're taking a big risk.  I think clapping those deaths, do you not see how that's distasteful?

Laura Loomer: I'll give you one.  When I look back over everything that I've done and everything and I've ever said --

Peter McCormack: Do you regret that?

Laura Loomer: -- was it distasteful?  It could have been a bit distasteful.

Peter McCormack: A bit?

Laura Loomer: No, it was a bit distasteful.

Peter McCormack: Come on.

Laura Loomer: It was distasteful.

Peter McCormack: It was distasteful.

Laura Loomer: It was distasteful.

Peter McCormack: This is the point I am trying to make.

Laura Loomer: It was distasteful, I'll give you that one, but at the same time, right, I think there's a distortion between -- they talk about the migrant crisis, if you look at the people who are coming over on these dinghies and their boats, they're men.  They're mostly men of fighting age, I don't really see women and babies on these rafts, I really don't.

Peter McCormack: Okay so there's a mixed response to that, because I've met the people, I've done it.

Laura Loomer: I've done it too and I was in Greece, and I have the undercover videos to prove it, and I'll show you the videos.  These migrants told me they were on there, there were no children, there were no women and they said --

Peter McCormack: Do you know why?

Laura Loomer: They said, "We got illegal passports".  They said that they were going use their passports which they got for €3,000 and illegally come to the United States and vote for Hillary Clinton.  I've got it on video.

Peter McCormack: I don't know about that scenario.

Laura Loomer: It's on video.

Peter McCormack: All I can tell you is about what I did and the research I had.  It isn't just men, there was women, there's pregnant women, there were children where I was.  I can show you the footage, but it is predominantly men.  The reason it's predominantly men is the men go first to try and establish a home, get work and build a base to bring their family over.  That's why it's usually the men who go first.

It's very hard and expensive to move a whole family across Europe, because you've got to walk across countries, get buses, you've got to sleep under trees, it's unsanitary, it's difficult.  So the men go first to try and build a home for their family and then bring their family across.  That's why it's predominantly men, that's the reason it happens.

I know there's a massive border crisis here in the US and that's super tricky.  I still understand why some people just want a better life and that's maybe naïve and people are like, "Pete, you're a fucking Liberal in this case", but meeting people and them explaining what it's like for them, meeting people in Syria who are from the war-torn area of Syria who are like, "We've got to get out"; people face a situation where they could be bombed or they could be murdered, and they just want to get out and build a life for their family.  Some of those people I understand.

Now, this isn't to say that bad eggs don't get through, this isn't to say that terrorist groups don't exploit this, put people into these countries, but I still think that's going to happen anywhere and I think the reason this is happening is because of the war that we've had.

Laura Loomer: Right, but they're not entitled to come here.

Peter McCormack: We're entitled to go and bomb their countries?

Laura Loomer: I'm not saying that I'm agreeing with the war, with George Bush's war on terror where he claimed that there were weapons of mass destruction, that they never found in Iraq.

Peter McCormack: Which we know there weren't.

Laura Loomer: There weren't, okay.

Peter McCormack: It was lie; him, himself, and Tony Blair.

Laura Loomer: And Colin Powell, who just died from COVID.  As I said when Colin Powell died, I said, "Man, Colin Powell just died, he spent his whole career looking for weapons of mass destruction, and he only encountered it once he took the COVID vaccine".

Peter McCormack: Yeah, see that's another one.  It's just like …

Laura Loomer: Look, just because I'm a Conservative and right wing doesn't mean that I support George Bush.  I think he's an absolutely globalist shill.  I don't support people like Colin Powell, it doesn't mean that I support the Iraq War, just because I'm Conservative.

Peter McCormack: Why aren't you campaigning against George Bush?  He led to way more deaths than any terrorist group.  I mean 1.5 million died in Iraq alone, so why aren't you campaigning at his doors?

Laura Loomer: Why am I not campaigning on?

Peter McCormack: George Bush's doors.  You're worried about -- not just domestically, because you had concerns about the UK, somewhere you don't live and I do, but you're worried about Islamic groups and you're campaigning --

Laura Loomer: Perhaps I will go after George W Bush.

Peter McCormack: I'm just saying, wouldn't it be balanced to go, "Well, hold on George Bush and Tony Blair led to the deaths of 1.5 million in Iraq, why are you not campaigning against them?"  It feels like you have an anti-Islam agenda.  Why haven't you got an anti-religion agenda?

Laura Loomer: This is the thing that I find to be so interesting is that I have had such an extensive and successful career as an investigative reporter.  Islam is one aspect of it, and yet that has become my entire identity because of what Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg have decided to say about me online when they banned me.

Peter McCormack: I disagree.

Laura Loomer: Said that calling a Muslim Congresswoman anti-Jewish and pro-Sharia means that I'm guilty of hate speech.  I have done tons of investigations: I was undercover as a reporter with Project Veritas for three years exposing voting fraud in the Hillary Clinton campaign; I have confronted people like Hillary Clinton on video; I have confronted people like James Comey; I take on the Republican establishment; I take on the Democrat establishment.

Peter McCormack: Do you know what I think it is?  I think the reason being is that some of these other things that you've done are quite interesting.  I think the way you confronted Hillary Clinton at her book signing was quite interesting.  I think the problem is this stuff comes across at times as distasteful.

Laura Loomer: No, this stuff stands out because people like Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg pick and choose.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but I'm not picking and choosing.

Laura Loomer: I was not banned though, this is the thing.  I was not banned for those tweets that you read.  You know that Jack Dorsey allowed me to stay on Twitter for about two years longer after I posted these posts?

Peter McCormack: You were warned for that day though, weren't you?

Laura Loomer: No, I wasn't even warned for that tweet.

Peter McCormack: Okay.

Laura Loomer: I was not warned for that tweet.  I was never sent a notification by Twitter telling me that that was a violation of their terms of service.  I was banned from Twitter, I received a warning for a tweet in which I called Linda Sarsour vile, they said that that was a violation.  Then they banned me for calling Ilhan Omar anti-Jewish.

Peter McCormack: Okay let's find the tweet.

Laura Loomer: If people think these tweets are so distasteful, go take it up for Jack Dorsey; that's not even what I was banned for.  So there's all this distortion and these lies out on the internet about why I was actually banned and what I was banned for.

Peter McCormack: Here we go, I've got it, "Isn't it ironic how the Twitter moment used --" is it this one?

Laura Loomer: Yeah, that's the tweet that I told you about earlier.

Peter McCormack: "Isn't it ironic that the Twitter moment used to celebrate women, LGBTQ and minorities is a picture of Ilhan Omar?"

Laura Loomer: Ilhan Omar.

Peter McCormack: Ilhan Omar, "Ilhan is pro-Sharia, Ilhan is pro-FGM [female genital mutilation] under Sharia, homosexuals are oppressed and killed, women are abused, forced to wear the hijab.  Ilhan is anti-Jewish".

Laura Loomer: That was the tweet I was banned for.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: It's all factual.

Peter McCormack: Okay, I mean there'd be a lot to digest here, and I'd rather have somebody who understands Islam as opposed to me, because I think homosexuals are oppressed and discriminated against under Islamic nations who take Sharia law as a basis for building.

Laura Loomer: That's what I said in my tweet, I said, "Under Sharia, homosexuals are oppressed and killed".  They are, they hang them from cranes.  I'm a human rights advocate, and so I don't like seeing gay people killed and hung from cranes.

Peter McCormack: No, of course, not.

Laura Loomer: I don't think that Islam is right about gays and women.  This is my whole purpose of confronting Jack Dorsey during the Alex Gladstein panel, which you intervened in.  These are human abuses, and yet Jack Dorsey has no problem amplifying the Taliban.  I talk about this in my book as well, in a chapter called -- I call it Silicon Sharia.  He has no problem amplifying real-life perpetrators of human rights abuses, but then they want to pretend like Conservatives are the real terrorists or Conservatives are the most dangerous people on the internet.

Peter McCormack: It says here what you were banned for, "Specifically for violating our rules against hateful conduct.  You may not promote violence against, threat and/or harass other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability or serious disease".  So, I don't think you got banned for specifically the words within this, I think you got banned for what was believed harassment against Ilhan.

Laura Loomer: She's an elected official.

Peter McCormack: I know, I am just saying it wasn't the only tweet you've tweeted at her right?

Laura Loomer: No.  The reason they don't like me is because I exposed the fact that she married her brother, which is now mainstream news.

Peter McCormack: Was that actually proved?  I thought that wasn't proved.

Laura Loomer: Yes, it was proven and that even the Daily Mail --

Peter McCormack: Hold on the Daily Mail is not something we use as a source of truth in the UK!

Laura Loomer: No, but there was even a report that came out two months ago about how they actually had DNA confirmation that this was her brother, and I broke the story.  I was the first person to confront Ilhan Omar about it during one of her rallies before she was ever elected to Congress.  That was a big no-no, because of course now we see that she and the other members of the Hamas Caucus, as I like to call them in our Congress, they're untouchable, they can do no wrong. 

Why do I get banned by Jack Dorsey for saying Ilhan is anti-Jewish, when the Democrat Party literally had to draft a resolution to condemn Ilhan Omar because she was so antisemitic?

Peter McCormack: I don't know without talking to them, but I know you sent a lot of tweets, and my assumption is they maybe thought you were harassing her based on religion.

Laura Loomer: If you're an elected official, you're a public figure, you subject yourself to criticism.  I mean, my God, if I counted -- what am I supposed to do, go online and look at the actual harassment tweets that are lobbied against me.  Even you told me, "I've never seen somebody who's hated so much online by these people".  If you want to talk harassment, please. 

Twitter has no problem with people harassing Conservatives, but God forbid you talk about this Congresswomen and expose the fact that she committed immigration fraud, and marriage fraud and that she's a raging Jew hater.

Peter McCormack: These are very complicated topics, because it's one of those situations where I almost feel like I need somebody, like Jamie exists for Rogan, to fact-check and go through these things, because there is a lot to digest and there is a lot to go through and I am going to have to research some of this.  I would love to know why they banned you.

Laura Loomer: It's just hypocrisy.  When I handcuffed myself to Twitter, I remember I actually printed out thousands of pages of tweets.  If you recall, I brought my bag of tweets with me when I handcuffed myself.

Peter McCormack: I only heard about one part of that story.

Laura Loomer: What the handcuffing?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: What was that?

Peter McCormack: Didn't they have to come like clamp you out?

Laura Loomer: Yeah, after four hours or so, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, that's all I heard about.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, I guess you could say I had special handcuffs made, because I knew that with regular handcuffs, you'd be able to snip the chain.  So I had my friend weld an actual steel metal bar around the chain so that they wouldn't be able to.  Then what I did is I took the key and I threw it down the sewage drain in New York City on the side of the road next to Twitter.  Then I filled the keyhole with epoxy glue so that if they tried to undo it, they wouldn't be able to.

Peter McCormack: That must have been pretty uncomfortable.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, it was very.

Peter McCormack: Did they bring you any food?

Laura Loomer: No, but people wanted to order me pizzas.  I mean there were people I guess online on Twitter who were, "Someone order Loomer a pizza".

Peter McCormack: So they have never opened a dialogue with you to talk about why they banned you?

Laura Loomer: No, they just banned me.  They just banned me and said that I was hateful and Islamophobic.

Peter McCormack: I feel like you do have an anti-Islam point of view.

Laura Loomer: I already admitted this to you, I am anti-Islam.  I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-Islam as the political ideology.  I feel terrible, because the biggest victims of Islam, of the ideology itself, are Muslims themselves, Muslim women.

Peter McCormack: "How many more people need to die before everyone agrees that Islam is a cancer and we should never let another Muslim into the civilised world?"  That's pretty hateful against Muslims.

Laura Loomer: I said that I was anti-Islam, I'm not denying that I'm anti-Islam.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but here you're saying, "Should never let another Muslim into the civilised world".

Laura Loomer: I'm in favour of an immigration moratorium, regardless of whatever you are.  I don't want any more immigrants coming into this country for at least ten years, and that's a part of my platform as a candidate.  I support an immigration moratorium.

Peter McCormack: Okay, but that's a different point, but I think specific immigration policies which target specific groups is discriminatory and we're trying to get to a world, a better place, where we don't discriminate based on sex, religion, sexuality, race, surely that's the place we want to get to?  I feel like you have picked this one specific area and used this as a focus, but there's lots of areas where we could generalise about specific groups and the harm they cause.

Laura Loomer: These are maybe three or four tweets that were posted years ago.  Like I said, people fixate on this and this has just become what they identify me with, but I just wrote a 400-page book about my entire career of everything I've done.  I mean, this is one aspect which they have, through hyperbole and progressive full outrage and the help of the Big Tech social media tyrants helping them amplify it with algorithms, they have been able to commit character assassination against me.  I take responsibility for my own words.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: I'm not playing victim here, I take responsibility for those tweets and I'm not going to be a coward and say, "I didn't tweet that, that's photoshop".  I tweeted those things, I posted those things.

Peter McCormack: This is my point, I see them as distasteful.  I wouldn't be friends with somebody who thinks like that.  I'm happy to do the interview, but we would never be friends because if you think like that, they're not the values I hold.  I want to live in a world where we don't discriminate. I know plenty of Muslims who are peaceful, law-abiding who aren't discriminatory, who believe the laws of the country they live in.

Laura Loomer: Right, and I said I don't hate Muslims, I don't hate Muslims, I'm just not a fan of Islamic immigration.  I don't want Islamic immigration in my country.  I don't want really any immigration to be totally honest, I don't.

Peter McCormack: I think immigration's important for a country.  I think a lot of countries have benefited from immigration.

Laura Loomer: I think right now with the current state of our country and the crisis that we're having here in the United States of America, where there has already been -- this last reporting period from the Border Patrol, over 400,000 migrants.  This is an invasion.  This wouldn't be acceptable in any other country, and I don't understand why the United States of America is the only country in the world that is expected to just take every single migrant from a Third World nation.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but that's not true.

Laura Loomer: No, I mean there really is this -- you said you've travelled around the world.  I travel a lot too, I have; not anymore because I refuse to get a vaccine, I don't want to get a vaccine passport, but I used to travel a lot.  I've travelled to the Middle East, have you ever been to Israel?

Peter McCormack: No, I haven't been to Israel, I'd like to go.

Laura Loomer: Well, you should go to Israel someday, and you're talking about Syrians.  If you go the Israeli/Syrian border or the Israeli/Lebanon border or the Israeli/Egyptian border or the Israeli/Gaza border, do you know what happens if you cross one inch over that borderline?  You get a bullet between your eyes.

Peter McCormack: Because Israel is a country that has a particular --

Laura Loomer: No, it's not, it's on both sides.  It doesn't matter whether you're trying to go to Lebanon or Syria, if you cross over --

Peter McCormack: These are enemies, these are countries that are sworn enemies.  In Europe, we have people in the UK coming over all the time from France.

Laura Loomer: This is the European -- you have the --

Peter McCormack: I'm saying it's not just the USA.  We have immigration across the world, we have people trying to escape for economic reasons or because they are trying to escape a war, who try and move to other countries, have a better life.  So much of what I love about the UK is based on immigration.  Where I live in Bedford is one of the most multicultural places in the UK.  We have large Indian communities, Italian communities and I think we have a flourishing culture and society where there's a range of views and opinions and foods.  Personally, I love it, I think it's brilliant.

My father's an Irish immigrant into the UK.  The US is really a nation of immigrants.  I don't want to just demonise immigration, but I understand the need for control over immigration.  You can't have unfettered immigration.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, we have an immigration crisis and I think that the time has come for an immigration moratorium in this country, because we have an immigration crisis and I think that it is just totally morally reprehensible and insulting when you have Joe Biden -- I mean just yesterday his administration announced that they're looking to give $450,000 to every single illegal alien.  I don't know if you guy received stimulus cheques in the UK but we --

Peter McCormack: That's not what he said.

Laura Loomer: No, they want to give $450,000 to every illegal alien that was separated under the Trump Administration.

Peter McCormack: Again, this is a different point, because you said they want to give it to every immigrant.

Laura Loomer: Every illegal alien who was separated under the Trump Administration.

Peter McCormack: It's not that I agree or disagree with the point, but I'm just saying that is entirely different point.

Laura Loomer: Right and I'm clarifying it's $450,000 to every illegal alien who was separated under the Trump Administration.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: What is the definition of being separated?  What, being detained because you're an illegal invader and you broke our laws and crossed into our country illegally?  Do you know what the salary of the United States President is?

Peter McCormack: You know, I don't know.

Laura Loomer: Take a guess.

Peter McCormack: I wouldn't have thought it would be particularly high, is it like $250,000 or less.

Laura Loomer: $400,000, so they want to give $50,000 more than what the actual salary for the United States President is to people who broke our laws.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Laura Loomer: This is problematic, this is extremely problematic, and you shouldn't be demonised or banned or called a hateful individual if you speak out about this, right?

Peter McCormack: No, I think those things are for fair debate.  I have no issue with discussing or debating immigration. I have no issue with discussing or debating taxation, distribution of income, all these things I have no issue with.  My main issue where people want to discriminate based on religion, race, sex, any of those things that I think we have, as a society, especially in a developed world, seemed to have gone past that.  And to demonise all Muslims based on the actions of a specific group, I'm just not a fan of doing that.

Laura Loomer: Look, I mean you can disagree with what I said in my tweets.

Peter McCormack: I do.

Laura Loomer: Like I said to you, I'm anti-Islam, I'm not anti-Muslim and I think there's a difference.  I have already corrected you and explained the fact that Islam isn't a race.

Peter McCormack: Okay, yes, of course.

Laura Loomer: I have no problem if you call me anti-Islam I'm owning that, I'm owning it, I'm not anti-Muslim though.  Believe it or not, there are a lot of Muslims who support me.  I ran for Congress last election cycle.

Peter McCormack: I believe that would happen.

Laura Loomer: My campaign kick-off was actually held at Muslim-owned diner with a Muslim Republican woman, my friend, who's a business owner in the district I ran in last election cycle, a wonderful woman, she's a Muslim.

Peter McCormack: I wasn't particular well-armed with my -- that comes across as racist, because I hadn't thought it through like that.

Laura Loomer: Great, but that is the thing is like you are conditioned to think that this is racist, because of the way that this has been so --

Peter McCormack: I believed it was discrimination.  The form of discrimination was --

Laura Loomer: You said it was racist.

Peter McCormack: Which is a form of discrimination.

Laura Loomer: You first said it was racist.

Peter McCormack: Yes, but Laura, the point I'm making is it is a form of discrimination, and I don't like discrimination.  So, whether it's religious discrimination or racial discrimination, I just disagree with both.  So, I might not have had my terminology correct because I hadn't thought it through and maybe I've learned something today, but I still believe it's discrimination and I just don't like discrimination.

Laura Loomer: We can agree to disagree, right, we can agree to disagree, but at the end of the day I think that there is a lot more to who I am as a person than just a few tweets I posted four years ago.

Peter McCormack: I think so too.

Laura Loomer: To have my entire livelihood and my entire business and my career destroyed and my reputation destroyed over a couple of tweets, when I have a vast résumé of very important investigative work that I have done, other things that I've done.  I mean, it's just a couple of guys in Silicon Valley just get to decide whether they're going to delete all of that with a push of a button because they dislike me.

Peter McCormack: This is where we can agree.

Laura Loomer: But they dislike others.  The reason I was saying about immigration too, not to get bogged down in policy issues, because that's really not the purpose of this podcast, but you said, "I have no problem having a discussion about immigration".  They would disagree in Silicon Valley.  They have no problem with the Democrats utilising these platforms to push out their agenda items, pushing out their talking points about giving $450,000 to every illegal alien who was separated under the Trump Administration.

What about the family members who are now permanently separated from their loved ones as a result of illegal aliens murdering their family members?  There are several instances of this, of angel mums, I don't know if you know what an angel mum is.

Peter McCormack: No.

Laura Loomer: The angle mom is what they call the mothers of people who were murdered by illegal aliens.

Peter McCormack: Okay.

Laura Loomer: Their accounts have been shut down by Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg for hate speech for speaking out about the need for crackdowns on illegal immigration.  This is absolutely toxic and so it's not just about me, it's about the millions of people, not only in America but around the world, who are being completely silenced for having completely reasonable political discussions about issues that are impacting them.  Whether it's Islam, immigration, COVID-19, politics, whatever it may be, and I just find that to be unacceptable and I can't allow it to stand; and so you asked me what my purpose is, and that's my purpose.

I want to take on the Big Tech social media tyrants and I want America to get back to actually being a nation that is a champion of free speech.

Peter McCormack: I agree.

Laura Loomer: I don't want to live in a communist technocracy that is run by Jack Dorsey.  I don't want to live in Mark Zuckerberg's metaverse.

Peter McCormack: I definitely don't want to live in Mark Zuckerberg's metaverse.  That fills me full of fear.

Laura Loomer: I don't want to live under a Chinese social credit score system, I don't.

Peter McCormack: No, I agree and neither do I.  I think there are certain things that are happening that we should be concerned about, happening in the UK, Australia, here in the US.  I absolutely believe we should be able to debate and discuss any idea; obviously, because I have you here and I'm willing to discuss things with you.

Laura Loomer: Right.

Peter McCormack: I think it's important to have open, free discussions.  I still think though, like I said, if you're going to be provocative and put out what is distasteful stuff, I still make the point I think it might be counterproductive to what you're trying to achieve.  I think perhaps you've maybe elevated yourself beyond those kinds of things.  You already regretted one and I think you probably regret those.

Laura Loomer: I think that some of my provocative stunts have been more effective than others.  I think that when I handcuffed myself to Twitter, look, it trended number one worldwide.  I got everyone in the world talking about Big Tech social media censorship and Stop the Bias Movement.

Peter McCormack: I think it's a big issue.

Laura Loomer: I created the Stop the Bias Movement and it was eventually retweeted by President Donald Trump before he was banned.  This is an issue that I was able to make the number one talking point during the G20 Summit.  I was able to take a conversation about Big Tech censorship and elevate it beyond the global discussion that was happening with the world's leaders, the most talked about news story in the world at that moment.

Peter McCormack: I think a lot of people agree with you on these topics, that's the point.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, so my tactics, some people may laugh and say, "She's so crazy, she handcuffed herself to Twitter".  Well, my tactics are effective, right.  When I put illegal aliens on Nancy Pelosi's lawn and livestreamed it to highlight the Democrats' hypocrisy with saying, "Everyone's welcome here and not wanting to fund", that was number one; I trended number one.  I have trended number one on Twitter over five times.

Peter McCormack: While you're banned.

Laura Loomer: While I've been banned, and that's an accomplishment.

Peter McCormack: I think that is an accomplishment.

Laura Loomer: To have hundreds of millions of people seeing your message through guerrilla journalism or guerrilla activism, that's effective.  It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's certainly mine and I stand by my tactics.

Peter McCormack: What is it you want to see happen; what would be effective change for you?

Laura Loomer: I would love to see Section 230 repealed, but I don't think that's ever really going to happen until somebody like me is elected to Congress, because unfortunately we have people on both sides of the aisle in our government who are taking money from Big Tech; it's not Democrats, it's Republicans, and so it's too beneficial for them.  When they can call up their buddies in Silicon Valley, which we know they do, and have them supress stories, like they did with the Hunter Biden scandal they did this last election, it's too beneficial for them to ever want to repeal Section 230.

But I also want to see these executives be held accountable.  I do believe that Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg should be sent to prison.

Peter McCormack: Okay, big statements.

Laura Loomer: I think that, you talk about laws and you were just giving me this big rhetoric about how Tommy Robinson broke the law; well, Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg broke the law.

Peter McCormack: Which law did they break?

Laura Loomer: It's illegal in the United States of America to lie to Congress; it's called perjury and you can be sent to prison for committing perjury.

Peter McCormack: What lies?

Laura Loomer: They testified to Congress during multiple tech hearings, and they said they were not implementing algorithms to censor and politically target Conservatives.  Well, we now know, because of these undercover Project Veritas tapes where I used to work, that they are, they actually are.

Peter McCormack: What happened?  Talk to me about this Project Veritas investigation, what happened.  I'm not a huge fan of Project Veritas.

Laura Loomer: Oh, really; why not?

Peter McCormack: Because I don't always like the tactics.

Laura Loomer: But they're effective.  You see, it's always their tactics, but they are effective.  People speak the truth when they don't realise they're being recorded.

Peter McCormack: I'm not sure how much it is about James O'Keefe's ego.

Laura Loomer: He wrote the forward for my book.

Peter McCormack: I'm not sure how much it is about his ego, or it's about actually finding the truth; and also, it never really feels objective.  So, it always feels like it's just very one-sided.  I just never really particularly liked it, it's not the kind of journalism I like.  What did they find out?

Laura Loomer: Well, they also have a lot of whistleblowers who have come forward.  So actually, when I was working for Project Veritas, I recruited the journalist who ended up going undercover in the Twitter investigation.  Since then, they've had a lot of whilstleblowers who have come forward and exposed the fact that they are abusing their Dangerous Individuals list, of course, which you see Facebook labelled me.  I was one of the first they labelled a dangerous individual. 

Twitter had algorithms in which they had special keywords, like "guns, America, Trump, USA", and you have Twitter employees on camera saying, "Those are like redneck trashy Trump supporters, and those are automatic bans".  You have Twitter employees on camera talking about how they would be in favour of blackmailing Conservative politicians and reading their DMs and then releasing that information to the press in an effort to take down their political enemies.  These are all videos that you can watch that are online with Project Veritas.

So, they have Mark Zuckerberg on video from one of his internal meetings admitting that, "Yeah, our company actually does have too much power, and we actually aren't abiding by our own terms of service".  You have them admitting this.

Peter McCormack: But what's he saying, what's the context of what he's saying?  Is he admitting it saying, "We need to change what we're doing"?

Laura Loomer: No, he's saying, "We are not following our own terms of service".

Peter McCormack: This is definitely one of those situations --

Laura Loomer: We know Mark Zuckerberg doesn't want to change anything.  The only thing he's going to be changing is the name of his company.  What does it stand for?  Mark Evading True Accountability.

Peter McCormack: There's a lot of these about!

Laura Loomer: Mark Evading True Accountability.

Peter McCormack: Mark Extra Terrestrial Alien.  There's a lot of memes.  This is one of those ones where I feel like I need a person here with a screen --

Laura Loomer: Manipulating Everyone Through Advertising; whatever you want to call it, right?

Peter McCormack: That's quite a good one, that one!

Laura Loomer: He's a liar.

Peter McCormack: I mean, yeah, I used to work in advertising, I know what the advertising model does to support certain industries.  But this is one where I almost feel we could have done with a screen and going through some of the stuff and fact-checking or talking about it as it happened, because there's a lot here you've gone through that I'm like, "Okay, I need to go and research this, I need to go and read more about this and understand what it is".

But what I will say is, I am troubled by the censorship on Big Tech on social media and Twitter, Facebook and YouTube.  I'm concerned about how some of the conversations with regard to COVID have been closed down.  I have been concerned with the banning of Donald Trump.  I think banning the President of a country during an election is particularly troubling.  I'm troubled with YouTube videos going down.

My thing is I also think, Laura, where are we headed here, we do we head here with this, because everything is conflict now?  Everyone is hating each other for X, Y and Z, everyone is fighting and we're in a really shitty place.

Laura Loomer: Well, as I like to say, the final variant is communism.  And, what was your other acronym? 

Peter McCormack: What was it?  I just made it up on the spot.

Laura Loomer: You said, "Marxism Enters The Arena"; this is what this is all about.  I mean, look, these companies, when you look at the wealth that they have, they are wealthier than some countries, they have a higher wealth than some countries' GDP.  What we're seeing right now is a full-blown Marxist/Communist revolution.

Peter McCormack: Do you really believe that?

Laura Loomer: I do.  These Big Tech social media companies, we are headed for a full-blown globalist, technocratic rule.  And that's why Mark Zuckerberg, it's so creepy -- I mean, even Jack Dorsey, the only time I found myself agreeing with Jack Dorsey, he thought it was ridiculous, he even thought it was ridiculous, this idea of the metaverse.  I mean, this guy is on a power trip, this Mark Zuckerberg.  He feels like he is the ruler of the world.

Peter McCormack: I think he's a businessman thinking, "Where does my business go next?" and the thing he's creating is ultimately going to be a lot of fun for a lot of people.  But the internet, the metaverse, will have a whole load of issues with it as well, and we'll be worried about the creepy places in it, and we'll be worried about the impact on kids and people going in and they can live this miserable, shitty life, and then go in the Metaverse and then suddenly be a superhero; then, they're not going to want to leave, because they're not going to want to go back to their miserable, shitty life.

It's just a weird thing.  I'm not sure Mark Zuckerberg wants to bring in a new era of communism though.

Laura Loomer: So, what happens when you die in the metaverse, do you die in real life?  What happens when you get banned in the metaverse, do you get banned in real life?

Peter McCormack: Well, they are interesting questions we have to work through; you know, I hadn't thought about that.  If you die in the metaverse, I think --

Laura Loomer: You die in real life?

Peter McCormack: No, I don't think so.

Laura Loomer: No, I think that's where we're headed, I really do, I think that's where we're headed.

Peter McCormack: What happened to the Matrix?

Laura Loomer: Do you remember Mark Zuckerberg's Libra project?

Peter McCormack: Yes, I do remember that.

Laura Loomer: So, that's where we're headed.  You know, Mark Zuckerberg had representatives from Libra testify, and I sent you the article, you can look this up.  They were asked by a member of Congress, "You just designated Laura Loomer, Alex Jones and Milo Yiannopoulos as dangerous individuals.  Under your Dangerous Individuals policy, are these same individuals going to be denied from using Libra?" and they said, "We'll have to get back to you on that, we don't know", which means they're thinking about it. 

They're thinking of weaponising what is supposed to be a decentralised currency to keep people, who they disagree with politically, or people who they view as their political opponents or dissidents, as second-class citizens to keep them out, to financially disenfranchise them, to keep them out of the world, the metaverse, that these people would like to see.

Peter McCormack: So, you might not get in the metaverse then?

Laura Loomer: Oh, I'm definitely not going to be.

Peter McCormack: We talked about Uber, and I can understand why Uber and Lyft banned you, because I thought what you said was particularly distasteful, but I can understand why that --

Laura Loomer: Well, why did Uber Eats ban me?!

Peter McCormack: I wonder if it's like, banned from one, banned from all, that's what it works like?

Laura Loomer: That's the one ban though that I get sympathy for, is Uber Eats.  I mean, how the hell do you get banned from Uber Eats, right?  I still don't know.

Peter McCormack: I don't know.  Twitter, the specific tweet, my assumption it's not that.  I found some of your other stuff distasteful.  I mean, if you came on here ranting some of those things now, you were saying them now, standing by them in the interview -- let me finish -- I'd probably be, "You know what, Laura, I just don't want to carry this on, because I don't want to hear that kind of stuff".  People have choices, but I'm not sure why they banned you.  What banking services did you get banned from?

Laura Loomer: So, shut down from Chase online banking.

Peter McCormack: When did that happen?

Laura Loomer: That happened in 2019.

Peter McCormack: What led up to that; do you know?

Laura Loomer: So, I was actually in a cab in New York City and I was on my way to Twitter Headquarters to go protest, this was another protest that I orchestrated, and I tried to pay for my cab and my card was declined.  Then, I went on my online banking and I said that I had been suspended from Chase online banking and then several of my friends, who are also high-profile, Conservative, pro-Trump activists, had also been banned that same week.

So, I told James O'Keefe about this, and they sent an undercover reporter into the Chase bank, and they got them on video saying, "We were instructed to not give banking access to people who don't have moral character", so that's where we're at in the country right now.

Peter McCormack: Okay.  Well, that's been happening for a long time.

Laura Loomer: It happened to the crypto community.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's happened to the community, also sex workers have been de-banked just for working.  There's people who work in the adult industry, adult performers, who have been de-banked because the banks say this is not an industry they want to support, despite being legal.  So, these sex workers can't access banking services, and some have gone to crypto and Bitcoin.

There's these moral judgements made against who should be a customer and who shouldn't be a customer.  It feels like you maybe became someone whose card was marked and nobody wanted anything to do with you, a bit like it seems to be sometimes, when somebody gets banned, they seem to sweep through all the different platforms and get banned from them all; it feels like that happened.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, well probably, because they used it as a justification, and whenever I get banned somewhere else, they always cite, "She was banned on Twitter and Facebook, etc", and it's on and on and on.  But is it justified?  No.  I think that it's a form of political retaliation, a form of, you say you're antidiscrimination, a form of discrimination, because I am a very outspoken and effective Conservative activist.  Really, I do believe that Conservatives are being discriminated against.

Peter McCormack: As someone who enjoys visiting Conservative states, I enjoy Texas, Wyoming, Florida, New Hampshire, I've enjoyed them all and I like spending time there, but I like my time here in New York as well and LA; but I feel sometimes the word Conservative is used pejoratively, and I actually support some Conservative ideas, certainly on the economic side.  I spent some time at Governor Abbott's mansion and got to hear what he was doing for the economy in Texas and he was like, "We're open for business", and it was really interesting to hear.

I do feel like there is this position where people from the left look down at people who are Conservatives as almost -- well, actually, I think it happens on both sides; I say that, and it happens on both sides.  But it feels like being a strong Conservative is morally wrong.

Laura Loomer: Well, because we're living in a time right now where the Big Tech social media companies, along with the Democrats who are now in control of our full-blown opposition government, are encouraging people to treat Conservatives like second-class citizens.  So, when you have people like Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai and others, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, who are admittedly anti-Conservative, it's not like they're hiding their political opinions. 

We have all seen the candidates that Jack Dorsey has donated to; we've all seen the fact that Mark Zuckerberg just gave $400 million to predominantly -- Mark Zuckerberg gave $6.4 million to the election supervisor in the district where I was running.  You know why he gave that money?  Because Donald Trump and I were both on the ballot, and we were probably the two most anti-Big Tech candidates in the country.  There was no reason to give $6.4 million of aid to Palm Beach County, the third wealthiest county in America.  He claims that he gave it to counties that were in need of resources for COVID assistance.  There was no need; this is election interference.

So, when you have these people, the most powerful people in the world, working hand-in-hand with the Democrats and saying, "Our patience is wearing thin with you", as Joe Biden said during his speech about the unvaccinated, "When the economy crashes, you blame the unvaccinated", like Joe Biden said, of course people are going to look down on Conservatives.  You have Hillary Clinton, who ran her entire presidential campaign calling half of America deplorable, as if we're dirty and disgusting, simply because of what we believe in.

Peter McCormack: Well, I find it very frustrating, as someone who comes here and spends a lot of time in different states, meeting different people, whether they're left or right, everyone's completely nice, and I feel like a lot of this is stoked by the media and social media and politicians themselves, and I just find it all a little bit disappointing. 

Where are the people who are trying to bring unity back?  Where are the people who are trying to bring some cohesion back?  Because, the experience you get from social media, the news and politicians is entirely different from my experience spending time here.  It's almost like everyone has monetised the game of division. 

Laura Loomer: Yeah, well, I would agree with that statement.

Peter McCormack: But could you also be part of the problem if you're going into politics and you're constantly pointing out the failings and flaws of everyone else, without actually also having some concessions yourself to try and bring -- like, how would you bring a little bit more unity in?

Laura Loomer: This isn't about me.  I'm running to represent people who need a voice, who are not being represented right now.

Peter McCormack: You're not really, though, you're meant to represent people who vote for you and people who don't vote for you, as an elected leader.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, that's what I said.  I'm running to represent people, the residents of District 11 in Florida, who are not receiving proper representation right now.  Those are Conservatives and Democrats; I'm saying "the constituents", which includes everybody.

Peter McCormack: How do you bring a more cohesive future together if you are elected?

Laura Loomer: Well, I think that it goes back to restoring constitutional values in our country.  We have representatives right now who are so polarised, and I agree with you that everybody is so caught up in their own political ideology that they are betraying the Constitution.  So, I'm running for Congress as a Constitutional Conservative, because just like you said what the solution was with Big Tech, I don't think we would have all this division and we wouldn't have all the animosity and the hatred if we got back to governing our country according to the United States Constitution.

Peter McCormack: I think a lot of people would agree with you on that.

Laura Loomer: You have people saying, "No one is above the law", like Nancy Pelosi says; we had a conversation about the law.  Well, you're not really following the law when you're interfering in elections and you're using your relationships with Big Tech to silence your political opponents, or illegally surveil people violating the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution by utilising Facebook and Twitter to provide information without a warrant; you're not exactly following the law when you're allowing thousands of migrants to come into our country.

I mean, look, there's people on both sides of the aisle.  You have hypocrites in the Republican party too who are taking money from Big Tech while they issue stump speeches talking about how they're so anti Big Tech.  But as an investigative journalist, I really am concerned with the truth.  And if you've noticed, I am disliked by Republicans and Democrats, and I'm a Republican.

Peter McCormack: But that comes back to that point where maybe sometimes, it's because the things you've done are particularly distasteful.

Laura Loomer: No, it has nothing to do with those statements, it has everything to do with my tactics, because I'm pretty aggressive; I think we could admit that, I'm aggressive, and I call things as I see them.  And I don't care whether you're on the right or the left.  If I have a problem with something that you're doing, or think that it's wrong or unethical, I call it out.  So, I think that you're right, with regards to the division and animosity, but we can really fix that if we get back to actually upholding the law and following the Constitution, because right now in America, I really do believe that we have a two-tiered justice system.

Peter McCormack: That I would agree with.  Expand on that, though.

Laura Loomer: So, we have different laws for different people, or different implementation of the law.  It used to be that it was the elitist versus the common people, and you would see people in the upper echelons of society maybe not face the same types of punishments.  But now, we're seeing a two-tiered justice system according to your political ideology.  So, you brought up 6 January, for example, and you called it an incitement to violence.

Peter McCormack: Well, I'm not sure I said that.  I said, I think that was the accusation.

Laura Loomer: The accusation, right, and this is what Big Tech are saying is an incitement to violence.

Peter McCormack: But it did end up becoming a violent event.  There were shots fired, someone was killed.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, do you know who fired the shots?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it was somebody inside.

Laura Loomer: No, it was a police officer.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, inside the building.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, it was a police officer who shot and killed an unarmed Trump supporter who was wrapped inside a Trump flag.  Her name was Ashli Babbitt and she was an Air Force veteran.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I've seen the footage and it's horrible, but I've got no idea what the rules he is governed by, what his duties are to protect the Capitol building when he's inside, so I can't answer that.  But still, there was a, whatever you want to call it, it was a violent act.  There were people trying to rush the building.

Laura Loomer: That building belongs to the people, so I really honestly have a big problem with people calling 6 January an insurrection, because The Capitol belongs to the people, it's called The People's House, our taxpayer dollars pay for that.  And as somebody who made a career going to Capitol Hill confronting politicians, I'll tell you first-hand there's no such thing as storming The Capitol.  Anybody can get inside The Capitol.  You go through security, and from the videos that are now coming out, it shows that police officers literally let protesters inside The Capitol.

So, you said that it led to violence; yeah.  This is what I meant by a two-tiered justice system.  So, you have Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg banning Donald Trump and so many of his supporters; Jack Dorsey said that he couldn't allow for incitement to violence to continue on his platform, so he banned President Trump.  Mark Zuckerberg said the same thing.  Mark Zuckerberg was going through, I don't know how they were doing this, but they must have some type of technology to do it, they were tracking down people through, I guess, AI and taking photos of people who were attending the rally on 6 January and going into their messages and turning them over to the FBI without a warrant.  That's illegal, you can't do that, that's an abuse of power.

But where were they when Black Lives Matter and Antifa spent the entire last summer burning down American cities and protesting in support of a degenerate drug addict, named George Floyd, who ended up dying while he was resisting police arrest?  Do you know how much money -- look, it's a heated thing to say.

Peter McCormack: Laura, listen, I've seen the video footage and I also know about his background and I don't understand why George Floyd was given a statue.  It seemed he lived a bit of a shitty life, treated some people shitty.  He was still a father.  I think we can all agree that what happened to him was wrong still.

Laura Loomer: Regardless of whether you agree with that or not, you said exactly what I was getting to.  He's not worthy of members of Congress taking a knee in Congress for him.  He's not worthy of multinational corporations --

Peter McCormack: I think it's a wider point.

Laura Loomer: He's not worthy of being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, like Black Lives Matter and those who were protesting for George Floyd were.  I mean, this is just a perfect example of why Americans are so pissed off, why people have so much animosity right now.

Peter McCormack: Do you know why it is?  I think very few people are willing to concede and take a middle ground.  I think most people would want to take -- everything is politicised in this country now, and it's really easy for me to see, as somebody who comes in from the UK.  We haven't politicised COVID.  If you want to wear a mask or you want to get vaccinated, it's got nothing to do with whether you're a Conservative or a Labour supporter or a Liberal Democrat, it just doesn't exist.  We don't politicise every single issue.  You do here in the US, you politicise every single issue, and it's really rough to watch.

Laura Loomer: You can thank Big Tech for that, because they amplify the politicisation, and that's what I was getting to with George Floyd, if you let me just finish what I was trying to say really quick, because I want to make this point.  They banned Donald Trump and his supporters after 6 January, because they said it was an incitement to violence.  Jack Dorsey put the black power fist in his profile on Twitter, and the official Twitter profile, the official Twitter account for Twitter, put the black fist with Black Lives Matter. 

Black Lives Matter: take a guess as to how much damage they caused throughout the entire country during their so-called Summer of Love?  I just want to show the comparison and the hypocrisy, because this is exactly what my problem is with these Big Tech social media companies.  Take a guess, I want you to take a guess how much damage was caused during 6 January and Black Lives Matter Summer of Love?

Peter McCormack: I don't know.  How would I know that?  I wouldn't know that.

Laura Loomer: Okay.  $1 billion of property damage was carried out by Black Lives Matter during the Summer of Love.  People died, people were shot, people were killed in these Antifa, Black Lives Matter zones like CHOP that were popping up, I'm sure you've heard of the CHOP thing.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, which was dumb, it was stupid.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, it was dump, at least we can agree on that.  In comparison, how much property damage was caused at The Capitol?  $1.5 million.

Peter McCormack: But you're not comparing apples and apples here, they're completely two different things.  And I don't think you need to compare them to make the point.  I think it's very easy to look at what happened with Black Lives Matters and see there are a number of people who felt like black people are routinely discriminated against.

Laura Loomer: That's not the point though.

Peter McCormack: But I'm saying people just got fed up and they protested.  And I think you can support the protest and also at the same time say -- look, I support these protests.  There's hypocrisy here around protests, like we're in lockdown but it's okay to protest COVID.  We shouldn't be supporting people damaging the buildings. 

I think you can take a nuanced view and you can knit your way through these things and go, "This is right, this is wrong", you can just use common sense.  But I come to the US and I struggle to find that.  I find people who just want to go, "I'm on this side, so I'm fighting for this team or I'm on this side, so I'm fighting for this team".  I myself am just trying to knit through this, and I think with common sense, with almost every scenario, you can say, "This is right, and this is wrong".

Laura Loomer: Well that's all because of Big Tech, this is all because of people --

Peter McCormack: No, no.

Laura Loomer: No, it really is though, because these are the distributors of information and if you're in the middle of a lockdown and you're only able to communicate -- if you're being told that you're going to be arrested for going outside, and the President of the United States and the First Lady are encouraging you to use social media to communicate, and the leaders of these social media companies are taking political stances by banning the President, but putting Black Lives Matter and the black power fist in their bio, that is a problem.  And that is why I believe so much division and animosity has spread in this country.

I do believe that these Big Tech social media companies are national security threats, I think that they ferment and they prop up domestic and foreign terrorist organisations that promote actual insurrections against the United States of America, I think that they intentionally create hostility and division by banning high-profile political leaders and discriminating against certain people within certain political affiliations so that this hostility is created.  I do believe they intentionally do it, and evidence supports my claims.

Peter McCormack: And I agree with you on a number of the issues with regards to Big Tech, but there was political division before there was social media.  This is what I believe an endemic issue within the US ever since the media companies split down political lines after Roger Ailes has created Fox News and created a Republican station, and you've then got this division and people monetise, by selling ad dollars, monetised division.  And I believe Fox News is as complicit as CNBC.

Laura Loomer: I hate Fox News.

Peter McCormack: Both sides.  But my point is, what I'm saying is they've monetised division.  But everybody else can take responsibility for themselves.  I can, you can, Jeremy can, every political leader, everybody who has a role in society can choose to do their own research and opt out of this and try and do something which is more cohesive and work together.  Everyone has a choice to do that.

So, we can blame political parties, we can blame TV networks, we can blame social platforms for their contribution.  We, as individuals, have a choice, and we have a choice that we either be part of this or we're not, and we try and be a more cohesive society, which brings me all the way back to Bitcoin and says why I like Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is neither left, it's not right, and it brings us together and that's why I like that, because we don't need all this political bullshit.  We can build a productive society by volunteering to work with each other using a new form of money, and that's what I like.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, I like it too, and that's why not only in my professional career as a deplatformed activist and journalist was I utilising Bitcoin, but also too I am proud that I was one of the only candidates in the country last election cycle that utilised Bitcoin in my campaign, and I was actively promoting Bitcoin, and I was one of the only candidates in the nation, and I believe I still am, that is accepting Bitcoin contributions for my campaign, because I really do believe that Bitcoin is the future.

Peter McCormack: Are you campaigning for the next primaries?

Laura Loomer: For the primary.

Peter McCormack: When is that; May, is it?

Laura Loomer: No, Florida has one of the latest primaries, so the primary is 23 August, so I'm primarying a Republican.  I decided to run against a Republican instead of a Democrat this time.

Peter McCormack: Who are you running against?

Laura Loomer: Do-Nothing Dan Webster.

Peter McCormack: Do-Nothing Dan!  That's the other thing, guys, all you fucking guys just attack each other.  The thing that signifies one of the biggest problems, I think, in US politics, and I've seen it seep into British politics recently with what happened with the Labour Party and Keir Starmer, is you'll get a bunch of Republicans on stage together and they'll attack the shit out of each other to try and win the nomination, and then they'll pick one of those people they were shitting on to work with, and it's just like, this is such bullshit.

Most of the time, politicians are attacking other people, rather than talking about their own policies, and I'm aware because I met somebody who's running for Congress in Kentucky, and she said she gets this report every Friday that's every little detail about her opposition, everything he's doing, so she can attack him.  It's just, this stuff is shit!  This is horrible, this isn't building a cohesive society, this is all about attack, attack, attack.

Laura Loomer: One of your politicians in the UK was just attacked who lost his life, didn't he?

Peter McCormack: I know, terrible, dreadful.

Laura Loomer: Islamic terrorists killed him.

Peter McCormack: That's two in five years.  Two politicians have been killed in five years.  I'm trying to remember who the other one was.  Yeah, I mean look, it's terrible.  Every murder's terrible, whether it's a murder by a Christian or a Jewish person or a --

Laura Loomer: Yeah, I know, I'm just emphasising that a politician in the UK was killed by an Islamic terrorist.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and I can't remember who the other one was killed by.

Laura Loomer: I believe that the guy was a Somali immigrant, actually, to the United Kingdom, who just murdered a recent politician in the UK. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we'll look it up, let's have a look, "Murdered member of Parliament".  I can't remember her name, Jo?

Laura Loomer: This one was murdered by a Somali.

Peter McCormack: "Jo Cox died of being shot and stabbed multiple times in Birstall", this was the previous one.

Laura Loomer: By who?

Peter McCormack: "By 53-year-old Thomas Alexander Mair".  Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions, he might also be…  Let's see what he is.  "The perpetrator was Thomas Alexander Mair, 53-year-old unemployed gardener, born in Scotland.  Mair had mental health problems, was declared sane at the moment of the crime.  He believed the individuals of the liberal and left-wing political viewpoints and the mainstream media were the cause of the world's problems".  You can't just pick out the ones where it's --

Laura Loomer: Political violence is a problem.

Peter McCormack: Yes, but you just went to pick out the Islamic one.  You forgot Jo Cox.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, well I was just trying to be snarky.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but it's like…

Laura Loomer: But look, I am against political violence, and one of the things that first was the result of my Twitter following, when I first became known on Twitter, was when I stormed the stage of that Shakespeare in the Park play in New York City, because they were inciting political violence, and I said, "Stop the normalisation of political violence against the right".  So, look, I don't advocate for political violence.

Peter McCormack: So, you want to censor creativity?

Laura Loomer: No, I'm not censoring creativity, it's a felony in the United States of America.  We're talking about following the law, right?  It's a felony in the United States of America to incite violence against the President, and it's not protected through the Arts.  That's why Kathy Griffin received a visit from Secret Service when she held that severed head of Donald Trump; that's a felony.

Peter McCormack: I don't know the full details of it, but was this not considered a piece of creative work?

Laura Loomer: I don't think that it's a piece of creative work when you intentionally give Caesar's wife an Eastern European accent to look like Melania, and then you have Caesar with a hairstyle that looks exactly like Donald Trump's.

Peter McCormack: Is that not satire rather than incitement?

Laura Loomer: No, they were glorifying the stabbing and the killing of Donald Trump and the crowd, it was sick, I attended it.

Peter McCormack: I mean, I've seen the video.

Laura Loomer: The thing about it is they were paying for that production with taxpayer funds, and there are Conservatives, believe it or not, who live in New York, I used to live in New York, and they don't want their taxpayer dollars, nor should they have their taxpayer dollars, going towards funding a play that is essentially assassination porn of their elected President.  But, you know, it's a lot to talk about.  You'll read about it all in the book.

Peter McCormack: I'm going to go and read the book.

Laura Loomer: Maybe you'll have some different thoughts about my tactics after you read the book.

Peter McCormack: Look, I don't disagree with all of your tactics, I think I've been pretty clear what I do and don't like and what I disagree with.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, and you're fair, and I wish more people were like you, I really actually think -- I know you're going to get a lot of shit for doing this podcast.

Peter McCormack: Of course I am!

Laura Loomer: But I actually really respect the fact, even if you do think that some of my things are distasteful, I have respect for you, because you are not simply talking shit and subtweeting me on Twitter or having me -- I wasn't too fond of you stopping my confrontation with Dorsey, because I thought it was important.

Peter McCormack: But that had to end at some point, and we had a programme to run, and you made your point.

Laura Loomer: It was may more entertaining than the programme they were running, let's be honest.

Peter McCormack: No, but I'm saying it wasn't going anywhere.  If it's going to happen, it needs to be mediated.  You made some points, he made some points.  If I hadn't have taken you out, the security were going to drag you out.  So, that's why.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, well I think that more people should take you as an example for how they should communicate and interact with people who they disagree with.  I think that we've had a really productive conversation and we sometimes text back and forth too, and we have these productive conversations because it's good for people to be able to see opposing viewpoints. 

So, I consider myself to be a free-speech absolutist.  Yeah, I might be politically on the right wing, but I'm not looking to silence and censor the viewpoints of the left.  I think that people should be able to say what they want to say, do what they want to do, express themselves, no matter how offensive it may be.

Peter McCormack: Well, all I know is from this interview, it's made me realise that if I'm going studio-based, I need somebody else with a laptop and a screen being able to go through some of the points to kind of fact-check, because you've brought so many things up today which we should have reviewed, talked about, fact-checked, looked at, which I think it's really important to have these conversations, it's super important.  Like the Tommy Robinson thing, just to understand what the law was regarding that.

So, I've enjoyed talking to you, it was good to meet you, we're going to prepare for the next interview, come again.

Laura Loomer: It was good, it was good to meet you, and I am deplatformed, but I encourage people and I am grateful that you gave me this opportunity, and people do have strong opinions about me.  But if you do want to understand my arguments in more depth, because it's kind of hard to convey all of this in this short time span, you should read my book.  You should go and you should order my book.  It's called Loomered: How I Became the Most Banned Woman in the World.

Peter McCormack: We have it here.

Laura Loomer: It gets into all these different arguments, and it's not just about me.  I talk about a lot of the different issues that are facing people all around the world right now with the Big Tech social media tyranny.  So also, if people are interested in following me, because I'm not on these traditional social media sites, they can follow me on Parler, I'm on Gab, I'm on Telegram.  And another site that I think you should look into, and I would encourage people in the Bitcoin community to join, is this new actually decentralised platform, called Bastion.

Peter McCormack: Somebody brought that up to me before, yeah.

Laura Loomer: Yeah, so I'm on Bastion and I agree that the future and communication in the future is going to revolve around decentralised social media platforms.  So, I'm utilising Bastion, and that's where I'm able to post my content completely uncensored, and you are actually able to earn cryptocurrency.

Peter McCormack: Shitcoins!

Laura Loomer: Well, it's called P Coin.

Peter McCormack: It's a shitcoin!

Laura Loomer: But regardless though, I think that I have been an advocate for decentralised platforms as well.  That's why, when Dorsey mentioned his creation, or his goal to create a decentralised platform, I agree with that.  I think that we need to have more decentralised communication and more decentralised technology.  I think that's the solution to censorship, and that's why I'm a proud supporter of Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: Well, good, and I will read your book, and I'm sure I will be back in touch and tell you what I agree or disagree with.  I don't often listen back to my interviews, because I hate hearing myself, I just don't like it, but some of this I'm going to have to go through, because I'm interested in seeing what's right and what's wrong, because you make really good points, but I don't know what's true and what isn't, and I need to research it.  So, the fact that you refer to Tommy Robinson and the things I do understand, because it's from my country, yet, no-go zones, I know you're wrong about those things, so I just need to fact-check the other things.

But I've enjoyed talking to you.  I might not agree with you.

Laura Loomer: Thank you.  And also, if people want to support my congressional campaign and send a message to Big Tech, which has deplatformed my campaign, they have made the decision to deplatform my campaign, it's the American people who should pick and choose election winners and losers, not Big Tech, you can go to lauraloomerforcongress.com and make a campaign donation in Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: Good pitch.  All right, leave it with me, I'm sure we're going to talk again.  We finally got here, and I will be watching your campaign with interest.  Thank you for the book.  Let's see where we go from here, good luck.

Laura Loomer: Thanks for having me.

Peter McCormack: Thank you.