WBD411 Audio Transcription

From Bars to Bitcoin with Justin Rhedrick

Interview date: Monday 18th October

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Justin Rhedrick. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, I talk to Justin Rhedrick, the author of From Bars to Bitcoin. We discuss his imprisonment, the power of discipline, and how bitcoin helped him unlock success.

“When I had gone to prison...I was still looking for a way to win, it didn’t matter where I was at, I’m always focused on how do I win.”

— Justin Rhedrick

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Justin, how are you doing, man?

Justin Rhedrick: Doing good, man, how about you?

Peter McCormack: All right, we can just laugh about it; let's just admit I'm an idiot, I didn't press "record".  I'm going to blame Jeremy!  But look, great to see you, dude.  I've had a whole load of people get in touch with me.  They're like, "You've got to interview the Bitcoin Vegan", maybe for at least a year.  I kept ignoring it going -- because I was a vegan, right, we can talk about that.  I was a vegan for 2 years, vegetarian for 16 years, I find the subject interesting and sometimes, I've thought of going back, but I was like, "I don't want to talk to a Bitcoin Vegan for an hour about being a vegan", and then someone connected us this week and said, "You need to talk to Justin, his story's insane". 

I get a copy of the book, I didn't have a chance to read it because of the time, but I've skimmed it, I know some of the story, and you're also the first person to fly in for an interview; I usually fly.  So, I appreciate you giving me your time and, dude, I'm looking forward to hearing your story, man.

Justin Rhedrick: No problem, man.  I appreciate you extending the offer for me to come here.  When I read the text, I said, "Wow, how can I not say yes!"  You've got to say yes to certain things.

Peter McCormack: So, we're here, we're doing this.  Where the hell do we start with this story, because I want to hear about the bit where you went to prison?  I interviewed Charlie Shrem, obviously you're probably going to talk to him at some point, you've got a similar bit of story there.  I learnt a lot from him about that, but where does this story start for you?

Justin Rhedrick: So, this story for me, we're going to take this story back to late-2016, my senior high school.  I remember coming home from basketball practice and my mum telling me that we lost the house, due to that pre-housing market crash time.  And I really didn't know what was going on, but I was 16, about to be 17 years old.  So, from there, I had to transfer to a different school, I wasn't able to play basketball at all in my senior year, and I was really training hard for that.

The same year, I got into a school called West Charlotte.  There, I'm just hanging out with some of my friends I've known throughout Charlotte, through my entire life, and my life took another turn when a friend of mine was killed at a party.  He was killed right in front of us, it was an accidental shooting, and that also altered my mind a bit, because I went from losing my house, having your friend die, then actually witnessing it.  So, that played a role on me for a long time, even does to this day.

But from there, I was still able to graduate from high school; that was good.  I go onto this college called North Carolina A&T, in Greensboro, North Carolina, and college was all right.  I never really had a plan, I just went to college, because that was what you were supposed to do, wanted to get away from where I was, and A&T was a bit of a party school.  So, in my mind, it was just about just trying to find something calm, or something just relaxing.  I'd never say I lived an entire life in the streets or anything, but just certain things take place and just alter you at a very young age.

So then, I was in school, I was out of school, I even made the Dean's List, but I dropped out of school one day.  At A&T, we would do a lot of partying, smoking weed, partying.  But one time I was in class, and the professor said, "You know, you guys won't have a job available for five years after you graduate?"  I was like, "Wait, what?  Why not?"  So, I'm close to graduating, 2011, and then I was just, "Man, this is some bullshit".  I stood up and said, "Y'all going to hear this, because Sallie Mae's going to want the money six months after graduation?"

So, in my mind, what are we going to set up for?  So, I decided to drop out.  It was probably a decision I shouldn't have made, because I didn't have a plan, but I thought, "I can go home and do what everybody else is doing, find a way to get some money", never really had a plan with it, just went out there and did it.

Peter McCormack: What were you studying?

Justin Rhedrick: Business administration.  So, from there, came back home, trying to find various ways to earn money, and you think what's happening around you is something you should have, you partake in it.  You know how they say, "Be a product of your environment"?  So, I was hanging around with folks and got caught up into a situation where it was like a home invasion.  I was told by a few friends, guys might have money, and I was like, "I just want money.  I'm not even really here to hurt nobody".  But nothing was there, so I left and we all left.  Eventually, the police caught up with me and I ended up going to prison for three years.

Peter McCormack: Okay, we're going to have to go through quite a bit of that; there's a lot there!  Okay, firstly, how serious was basketball for you at the time?

Justin Rhedrick: I used to wake up at 5.00am in the morning every day doing my rising scene.  I looked up to Kobe, RIP, and I just remember how much he would talk about hard work, how much he would talk about just being diligent to what you wanted to do.  So, I was like, "Well, hell, you want to get good?  You've just got to keep going".  So, basketball was serious.  And, when I couldn't play, I tried to just let it roll off, but I could tell it really had a profound effect.  But, yeah, basketball was pretty serious.

Peter McCormack: Were you a Hornets fan; is it Charlotte Hornets?

Justin Rhedrick: I live in Charlotte, but I'm a Lakers fan.

Peter McCormack: Because of Kobe?

Justin Rhedrick: Yes, because of Kobe, but also because of my uncle.  My uncle, if you asked him who the best basketball player in the world is, he'll say Magic Johnson.  So, we grew up, he taught me how to play basketball, him and my cousin, and we were just embedded to be Laker fans.

Peter McCormack: If I asked you who was the best ever?

Justin Rhedrick: Kobe Bryant!

Peter McCormack: He's the best?

Justin Rhedrick: The best!

Peter McCormack: Better than Michael Jordan?

Justin Rhedrick: You know what, hm.

Peter McCormack: I'll tell you something about basketball.  So, I've been to a few basketball games, and it's a sport I've struggled with, because my sport's soccer; soccer and boxing.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, you like boxing?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, we can talk about that.

Peter McCormack: We can talk about that in a minute.  I'm going to a fight on Saturday.

Justin Rhedrick: You're going where?

Peter McCormack: Wilder Fury, yeah.

Justin Rhedrick: You're not taking me?

Peter McCormack: Well, we can talk about that.  If you want to go, we can talk about that!  And I'm being kind by saying "soccer"; it's really football, right.  But football's a low-scoring game.  I've seen games which have finished goalless, 0-0, and have been great games, but most games are low scoring.  You're very lucky if you get a 4-3 or a 4-4, so it's a low-scoring game.  It's hard to score.

Whereas, basketball's a high-scoring game.  So, I've been a few times.  I've been to see the Knicks, I've been to see the Lakers, I saw Kobe play once.  I feel very lucky to have done that.  And I just really struggled to enjoy it and just kind of gave up on it.  I like US football and I also like ice hockey.  Ice hockey's the most similar to British football, I think, as a sport.  It's a lower-scoring game and it's hard to score.

Justin Rhedrick: It's a lot of defence.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  But I watched the Michael Jordan Netflix series, and that changed my understanding of basketball quite a bit.  I haven't had a chance to go since, but I now want to go.  I didn't understand how good Michael Jordan was.  All I knew he was, was just this hero in Chicago and that he was so good that he had his own brand for Nike, which by the way I've heard, if Jordan was his own separate brand, it would be the third biggest sports brand behind Nike and Adidas.  But I watched that and got a much better understanding of the game of basketball and how good he was.  And I've never seen anything paint Kobe as good as him.  Yet.  Apart from people like you telling me that.

Justin Rhedrick: Look, I mean, Michael is the GOAT and you grow up, he lived in North Carolina, so you grew up in North Carolina, it's all Michael Jordan.  And when it comes down to it, the reason why I would give it to Kobe, possibly because I'm biased, but it's just the fact that I feel like he wanted it at a different level.  He dropped 55 points on Mike the night Mike was almost close to retiring.

Michael Jordan would look at Kobe like, "This kid is the real deal".  So, from that respect, I don't know what Mike saw in Kobe, but from what he saw, he had this respect to where Mike would be, "This guy, he could be the guy".  And just the fact that he did it straight out of high school.  Michael, he went to college for three years.  Most guys back in those days, you went to college two or three years, or four years. 

Kobe came into the league, into the grown-man league back then, at 17, ready to take on the world.  So, I think just from that level, which is why I give it to him, because I feel as if he would have gone through anybody just to get it, and that's the mentality you have to have.  You have to have the mentality to go through anything, no matter what comes up, no matter what's in the way.  If everything's falling out to the lay side, you've still got to walk on that goal, because you can't just sit here and say, "Life happened".  Life is always going to happen.

Peter McCormack: So, it must have crushed you a bit when he had his accident, dude?

Justin Rhedrick: I cried for about two weeks.  I actually dedicate my book to Kobe.

Peter McCormack: That's one of the things I notice when it happened.  Obviously, it was huge news.  I think, was I here?  I can't even remember where I was, but how it affected people here.  It never got across in the UK to me how big he was until, obviously, he passed.  I knew he was a superstar, but I didn't realise until that happened, it seemed to crush a lot of people.

Justin Rhedrick: It was like, Kobe, he was a man, but he died a culture.  He made it cool to be insane for what you want.  He made people see what real dedication is, beyond anything, which was probably why I was in your inbox a lot on Telegram.  I was like, "Hey, Peter, how are you doing?" 

Peter McCormack: Knock, knock!

Justin Rhedrick: "We'll hit you up again.  It's all right, I know you're busy, we'll keep going", because at the end of the day, if you don't keep going, what are you going to get?  You're not going to get anything.

Peter McCormack: All right, before we get into this, let's talk a bit about boxing then, because I'm a big boxing fan.

Justin Rhedrick: Listen, I learned how to box in prison.

Peter McCormack: You did?

Justin Rhedrick: Yes.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay.

Justin Rhedrick: I talk about that in the book too.

Peter McCormack: You learnt how to box, or you learnt how to fight?

Justin Rhedrick: I learned how to box in prison.  So, growing up, my mum put me in karate.  I remember, I won the nationals in karate in 1997.  I didn't like karate though.  Back in those days, it was all about Mike Tyson.  So, she was so afraid of, "Well, you're get hit in the head".  I was like, "Well, kids get kicked in the face in karate; what's the difference?"  So, I always had a love of boxing.

But when I was at a particular prison, called Caledonia, I noticed that they allowed you to actually train on the yard.  So, there were a few guys who had real boxing experience, so I approached one of them.  And I tell this one story in the book, where this one guy, we used to go to the yard, and they had this basketball pole that was solid metal, had a little cushion around it.  So, we would wrap our hands with socks and gardening hose, and that was the first punching bag I ever punched, was a steel beam.  I punched it so many times, my whole hand would shake.  I remember one time, I couldn't write.

But boxing in prison meant so much more than what I thought.  So, when I came home, I joined a gym, and it's a different level.

Peter McCormack: Are you still boxing?

Justin Rhedrick: I still box.  I haven't had any fights, but I still box.

Peter McCormack: So, who's your guy?

Justin Rhedrick: You mean actively, or all time?

Peter McCormack: Give me both.

Justin Rhedrick: You know all time was Mayweather.

Peter McCormack: I'm not sure, man, I'm not sure.

Justin Rhedrick: Are you upset about the Ricky Hatton?

Peter McCormack: I was at that fight.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, wow!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, the first fight I ever went to was Ricky Hatton, Floyd Mayweather, in Vegas.  I was 26 and a bunch of us flew out for it.  The funny thing was, I had my friend's wedding on the Friday and the fight was on the Saturday, and I was trying to say to my friend, "Can I leave the wedding early to catch a flight to Vegas?" and he was like, "You're my best man.  No".  So, I had to fly on the morning of the fight, and I had to connect in, where did I connect?  I think it might have been Atlanta.  And my flight landed three hours before the actual fight, so there was no room for error.

But luckily, I then got to the fight.  I'll tell you a funny story about that.  So obviously, Ricky Hatton lost and, sorry if my dad's listening, we went to a strip club afterwards.  We went to Spearmint Rhino, and there was this big commotion, and in came Mayweather with his entourage.  I was with my business partner, Olly, and I said, "Listen, I'm going to go and talk to him".  He was like, "Really?" and I was like, "Fuck, yeah".

So I went up and said hello, and do you know what, he was just so nice.  And I said to him at the time, I was like, "You're a really nice guy, but on TV, you look like a bit of a knob.  What's that about?"  He's like, "I'm just selling fights".  But he was really nice.  I got to meet him again at Bitcoin 2021.  So I like him, I think he's a great boxer, I don't think he's the greatest ever.  But there's one fight he would have lost, he should have lost.  There was the one fight, I can't remember the name; the guy he was fighting, the ref pulled them apart and the ref was talking to him, and the guy had his hands down --

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, you're talking about Victor Ortiz?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  I think he was going to lose that fight.

Justin Rhedrick: I'll tell you one thing, man.  People have asked me about that fight and I say this.  There's Floyd, again, when you stay focused and know exactly what it is, the one thing the referee says is, "Hands up at all times".

Peter McCormack: I know all this, but I think he was going to lose that fight; I think he was behind.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, no, man.  He was behind with the Marcos Maidana fight.

Peter McCormack: First or second one?

Justin Rhedrick: Definitely the first one.

Peter McCormack: Because I was at the second one.  I've seen him twice; you've just brought up the two.  I was at the second one because Amir Khan was on the undercard, so I went for that.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, yeah, I remember Amir Khan; he had lightning-fast hands.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  He would have been a problem for Mayweather.

Justin Rhedrick: You think so?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, just because towards the end of Mayweather's career, he wasn't really knocking people out.  So, if it comes down to points, he fights Amir Khan, they're both going toe to toe, Amir's fast, Amir can land.

Justin Rhedrick: I mean, he's fast, but his chin was very --

Peter McCormack: I know, he was suspect, but it would have been a good fight.

Justin Rhedrick: It would have been great.

Peter McCormack: But I think he loses the Ortiz fight, I think he was going to lose that fight.  I know it's controversial.

Justin Rhedrick: It's all good!

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, I think also, best pound for pound at their peak, I would say Tyson.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, Tyson, really?

Peter McCormack: At his peak.

Justin Rhedrick: I would say this.  Tyson was an animal, but if you didn't fear Tyson, then he feared you.  When I was watching the Holyfield documentary, Holyfield said it himself.  He said, "Man, this guy's nothing".  And he said his mama gave him some of the best boxing advice.  He said, "You know, the cat likes to chase.  Don't give him nothing to chase".

So, I noticed when he would go against guys who did not care nothing about him, I'm not going to say he folded, but we just didn't get the results that we thought we were going to get.  But yeah, Tyson was the guy who put boxing on that level in the 1990s and now we have your other guy, Tyson Fury.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, who's your money on?

Justin Rhedrick: Money on?  I want Wilder to win, but we're talking about money?  I don't bet with my heart or emotions.

Peter McCormack: I mean, if he wins, we get a fourth fight.

Justin Rhedrick: Right, and they're going to retire each other.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but that's potential.  So, I think Tyson Fury won both fights.

Justin Rhedrick: You think so?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, if you watch the first fight, it wasn't a draw.  I think without the knockdown in the last round, Tyson definitely wins.  The knockdown was maybe what brought it back for --

Justin Rhedrick: When I saw him get knocked down, I was like, "All right".

Peter McCormack: He was done.

Justin Rhedrick: I thought he was knocked out.  Then he rose above the canvas, I was like, "Damn!"  But I knew that they were right, when that happened, that was going to be a draw, because it was so tight.  And you know, referees nowadays…

Peter McCormack: He came up like The Undertaker!

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, just boom!  I was like, "Wow!"  I know Wilder was shocked himself.

Peter McCormack: I think he won that fight.  The second one was convincing.  I think Tyson Fury's a better boxer.

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, yeah, definitely.  He's one of the best big boxers.  When he beat -- I watched him when he beat Klitschko.

Peter McCormack: I was at that fight!

Justin Rhedrick: You were at all the fights!  When I watched him dancing around the ring, I said, "Who's this big dude dancing like this and just pow pow pow?" 

Peter McCormack: You know against Klitschko, he was 5-1 on that fight.

Justin Rhedrick: What, underdog?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  No one gave him a chance.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  Klitschko was too stiff, he just had that stiff look.  When it comes down to it, I know you have better footwork and you add his size, he could just move.  He can move, he's going to be a problem for anybody, and you guys did hold all the belts in the heavyweight division.  How do you feel about Joshua?

Peter McCormack: I mean, I'm not a huge fan of Joshua.  I don't dislike him.  I've seen him fight a couple of times; I saw him fight Klitschko at Wembley.  Very early in his career, he's fighting Wembley, and he comes out for the fight and they have this platform.  He walks onto this platform.  This platform lifts him up in the sky and all these lights are shining and I was like, "This is a bit early for this.  I know you're the Olympic champion", he was a gold champion, I'm pretty sure, "I know you're the Olympic champion and I know you're the big pull and you're selling out Wembley", but I only think he'd had about 10 or 12 fights at that point.  I'm not sure of the number, but me and my son were watching it and I was like, "This is too much right now".  It's something you do maybe towards the end of your -- actually, I don't think it's something you ever do.  I just think it's a bit much.

Then, obviously against Ruiz, we saw him --

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, yeah.  I thought about actually putting money on Andy Ruiz.  I looked at it, I said, "I should", then didn't even do it.

Peter McCormack: Well, I think the reason he just lost his last fight to Usyk is because of the Ruiz fight.  Because, if you watch, he used to go out and just punch people in the head, and he just got hit by a lucky punch.  He got hit by Ruiz and then what happens is, when he has the rematch with Ruiz, he can't lose that fight.  So, if you watch it, it's the first time he really boxes.  He uses his jab, he keeps his distance and makes sure he can hold him back, and he wins on points.

Then what happens is, he's carried a lot of that technique into the Usyk fight, and he's keeping off, he's trying to box him, and he's more of a fighter than a boxer; whereas, Tyson Fury's more of a boxer than a fighter.  So, I think that's why he lost to Usyk and I think he has to go back to the drawing board, and I think he can beat Usyk.

Justin Rhedrick: One thing Usyk did good was he used his feet a lot.  He wasn't even running, but he was just always making sure Joshua turns.  And if you know how to use your feet, and the next guy, he can't punch and move and be effective like he wants, it's going to be a problem.  Another thing, I don't necessarily know, well he might have; I don't know how much experience Joshua has fighting Hispanic fighters.  So, I've boxed against Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, all different types of Hispanic fighters, and they don't stop.  You can hit them in the head, they can be flatline dead, this man will get up off the canvas.  So, it was a different level of will.

Peter McCormack: But when you're that size, Joshua, you've got to go and start punching, and he didn't.  I thought it was a poor performance; I think they all did.  He's got a rematch and if he loses that…  I mean, I'm trying to wonder how this goes now.  Wilder can beat Fury, he just has to land a couple of big bombs; we know he can knock him down.

But I think the way this goes, I think Tyson Fury wins, I think Joshua then fights Wilder.  I think Joshua has to beat Usyk to get the Tyson Fury fight, but I think he might not, so I think he fights Wilder and then Fury fights Usyk and then gets all the belts and then retires. 

Justin Rhedrick: That wouldn't be a bad idea, because Joshua messed up by not taking the fight when he had the chance with Wilder.  You had a belt, Wilder had a belt, we could have gotten a fight.  Everybody thought they could pull off a Mayweather/Pacquiao strategy, and you cannot.  Boxing is not that forgiving.  So, that sounds like a plan.  I mean, if I was Tyson Fury at this stage, be undisputed, you've beat everybody, you don't have to fight Joshua, even though you might just do it for the fans.  But hell, if you lose too many fights, you just lose your opportunity and your belts. 

That's what it's looking like with Joshua.  You've got two losses, very good fighter still, but I mean he's got a lot of tank, but I heard people say he should start looking at retirement.  But I don't know, man, Tyson Fury.  I think if they do get the fight with Usyk, he does get past Wilder, then there's probably no more he can do in the heavyweight division.

Peter McCormack: Then he's referred to as The Undisputed Champion.  What is it, is it The Lineal Champion?  What was that?  I'm so bad with terms.

Justin Rhedrick: They have so many different types of belts.

Peter McCormack: Because he used to refer to himself as The Lineal Champion.  Does that mean you've got all the belts?

Justin Rhedrick: No, lineal's -- I forgot that was.  But once he gets undisputed, that's when he'll have the WBC, the IBF, the IBO, the WBA.  By then, he'll be the king of the boxing world.

Peter McCormack: So, do you want to come on Saturday?

Justin Rhedrick: I'll go.

Peter McCormack: Let me see if I can get you a ticket where we are.  If I can get you a ticket, you come and you just come and join us.  There's a good few of us going.

Justin Rhedrick: I'll go.

Peter McCormack: All right, listen, there's going to be a bunch of people listening going, "What the fuck are you talking about?  I'm here for some Bitcoin shit!" 

All right, listen, there's this situation where your mum lost the house.  That's obviously a terrible thing to go through as a kid and terrible for your mum.  It's one of those awful situations, but I guess that was the first time you realised there's something wrong with the money, right?  How much did you understand about what was going on?

Justin Rhedrick: At that point in time, I did not.  I didn't really have too much financial literacy on the matter, I just know that we lost the house, we had to stay with a few friends, and we were trying to get another house.  So, at that point in time, I didn't have too much knowledge on how it all happened.  It wasn't until I looked back later years where I could piece things together and really notice, "Damn, I was affected by the housing market crash, even though it happened early".

Now, one thing I will say that happened within that was, I started trying to find trends early, because I was like, if we got hit up in 2006, 2007, but everybody's talking about it from 2008, 2009, that means there are precursors that take place, that if you pay attention to those, that you can be hit by the rest of the world.  So, that's how it opened up my mind to the situation.  But at that present moment, I didn't know what to do.

Peter McCormack: I guess you look back now and you understand a little bit more.  Okay, man, let's talk about bars.  Let's talk about again what happened.  Okay, so in with the wrong crowd?

Justin Rhedrick: Wrong crowd situation, man.  People that I normally didn't even hang out with, it was even a different crowd.  So, it was a situation where, when you're that young, you're trying to figure out how do you -- you think quick money is a thing; kind of like how people do in shitcoins!

Peter McCormack: Shitcoins, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking!

Justin Rhedrick: Shitcoiners think they're going to get quick money.  But quick money never works, and that's another reason why Bitcoin was an easier decision other than shitcoins, because shitcoins, and I know I'm going off, but shitcoins just give you the feeling, you've always got to do the work, you've got to be on this trend, you've got to see this, "What the hell?"

Peter McCormack: Well, Bitcoin's easy, right?  You just buy it.  The easiest strategy: stack Bitcoin, put it in cold storage, go to work, earn money.  That is the easiest strategy, and you can compound everything 200% a year on average.  That's the number we tend to say.  I don't know if it will continue at that rate, but it's a very easy strategy.  Shitcoining is a tough strategy, because it's stressful.  Should I have bought; should I have sold?  Stressful.

Justin Rhedrick: Then, do I have liquidity?  Do you even know what that means?  Probably they don't.  But with the house and that situation, I was just trying to find quick money.  And the people around me, everyone seemed to think, the only way you can be successful now is you have to go and chase quick money, you have to go and do something that is pretty much illegal.  And I tried that path.

Peter McCormack: So it was, you say, a home invasion; is that a burglary?

Justin Rhedrick: It's just a breaking and entering.

Peter McCormack: Breaking and entering.  Were you all armed?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, all armed.

Peter McCormack: Okay, pretty serious stuff.

Justin Rhedrick: It was serious.  I was 20 years old, and when I really realised that number one, there weren't nothing in this damn house, I was like, "Wow, what have you gotten yourself into?"

Peter McCormack: Was anyone there in the home when you went?

Justin Rhedrick: There was someone there.

Peter McCormack: Wow, okay.

Justin Rhedrick: After a while, I'm just like, man, I left.  One person lost the keys to the car.  I was like, "Bro, you know what?  I'm gone.  There's nothing here and it's not what I thought", so that reality hit in that moment.  From there, I had gone on the run a few times, just going from different places, different friend's house, staying on couches.

Then, when I came home one weekend, I remember getting a knock on the door and my mum said, "It's the police".  I said, "Damn".  So, the first thing I did, I threw my remote control halfway around the room.  I didn't want them to think I had a gun.  Then, they came in the house with guns drawn, asked me to show my hands, and I just surrendered.  And, that's when the process of me going to prison started.

Peter McCormack: Okay.  What happened with mum though?  Did she lose her shit?

Justin Rhedrick: I actually told her before the police got there.  It just started getting to me like, "I can't keep holding this from my mum".  If it's anybody in the world I don't mind telling, I've got to tell my mum, because I didn't want it to be that surprising.  So, I did tell her way before it happened.  And then, when it did happen, it was a reality check.  Like I said in the book, I said one time, that's when I really knew I fucked up, because the worst thing was how my mum was looking.

Peter McCormack: The look of a mum.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, and I was like, "Damn, I don't want her to believe that she failed as a mother.  I just made a wrong decision and it cost".

Peter McCormack: Okay, so you get arrested.  Do you get bail, or was it just straight to prison?

Justin Rhedrick: We got bail, I got bailed out.  But that process of going to prison, once you're in that process of the system, your mind goes through a lot of different things.  It's kind of like, let's look at it like this.  Since COVID, how many times have you thought, "Oh, I can go do this, I can do that", but then you remember, "Oh, man, we got this COVID thing going on, we don't know how this is going to go"?  So, what you perceive as normal has now been shifted. 

That's kind of the same for me.  I was like, "Well, yeah, we can go out, we can hang out, we can do this", but I can't make plans past a certain time period, because I don't know what's going to happen.

Peter McCormack: You were always going to plead guilty?

Justin Rhedrick: I actually didn't necessarily think about it.  After a while, I was actually approached with a deal, because everyone that was involved started pointing fingers, and I was just like, well, I didn't necessarily want to plead, but it was just really, I didn't know what to do.  And, it was to the point where, "All right, well if I take it to trial, they know what to do".

So eventually I just said, "Well, when it came down to it, I was already, somewhere in my mind, prepared to go to prison".  You get to a point where you're just ready to get it all over with.

Peter McCormack: Okay.  So, how much time did you get?

Justin Rhedrick: I got three years.

Peter McCormack: Three years.

Justin Rhedrick: From 21 to 24.

Peter McCormack: And, do you remember the moment where they handed that down?

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, yeah.  I remember the moment the judge -- this is why a lot of people can say things to me that won't really matter.  I remember the judge said, "Well, you know, Justin, it looks like you're trying to do some good work in the community, you want to turn your life around.  But you know, this is a home invasion.  So, I've got to sentence you to 20 to 33 years consecutively".

Peter McCormack: Months.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, oh yeah, Jesus Christ!  20 to 33 months!

Peter McCormack: You'd have grey hair if we were doing it then.

Justin Rhedrick: So, I was like, "Okay", I thought consecutive meant concurrent, so I thought, I can do a year and eight months, it's cool, that's what's up.  The attorney I had came back and I said, "So, yeah, I'll be out in a year and eight months, this is great".  She said, "No, consecutive means they run together".  She said, "It means you do one after the other".  I was like, "So, what do you mean?"  I said, "40, 12, 24?  You mean, I've got to do three years in this motherfucker?"  She said, "Yeah".  And I was like, "Damn".

So, when that set in, my mum came down to the bullpen area crushed.  And I think something just turned off, nothing bad, but she said, "So, what are you going to do?"  I said, "Well, I've just got to go and go to prison, grow dreads, and I'll figure it out in three years", and that's where that whole entire journey took place, going to prison, you hearing everybody say, "This is what's going to happen, you've got to do this, or this, that and the other".  And somewhere in my mind I'm thinking, "I'm not about to go through none of this shit y'all are talking about".  I wasn't a gang member.  I didn't mind fighting, but when I got into prison, I started noticing a place where I could win.  I was still looking for a way to win.  It didn't matter where I was at, I'm always focused on how do I win?

When I got locked up in prison, on the way there, I was just thinking, "Well, Justin, hell.  You've hit rock bottom.  There's no way to go back up, so how are you going to figure out how you're going to go up while you're in prison; how are you going to figure out how to win while you're in prison?  If you have three years to do this, then what are we going to put together?"  Another favourite athlete of mine is Tom Brady; you like Tom?

Peter McCormack: I mean, he's a bit of a shitcoiner now, isn't he?  No, I like Tom.  How can you dislike Tom Brady?  He's the only pro-sportsman, elite sportsman my age probably, but up there!

Justin Rhedrick: He's still winning.

Peter McCormack: Dude, he crushes it.  He's a nice guy, he's married to one of the most beautiful people in the world.  He's everything.  No, I like Tom Brady.  I think the only thing was, the thing I like about US sports is the draft system.  It means you distribute the winners a bit more.  Whereas, in the UK, we don't.  It's just the same teams winning the Premier League all the time.

We had this team, Leicester, who won a few years ago, which was this miracle, absolute sporting miracle.  Otherwise, it's going to be Liverpool, United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City; never Tottenham, but any of the others.  So, the only thing was, it just felt like the Patriots were always winning.

Justin Rhedrick: I'll tell you this.  The first time I decided what NFL team I was going to like, it was in 1997, it was the Green Bay Packers versus the New England Patriots in the Super Bowl.  Drew Bledsoe was a quarterback, Reggie White was sacking him all over the downfield, and someone said, "Well, if you're going to choose a team, you might as well choose one now".  I said, "I'm going to choose the blue team".  I chose the Patriots in 1997, they got their ass whipped in the Super Bowl.  Then a few years later, they get they first win, then we do six more.

Peter McCormack: The 49ers is who I picked.  When they first started showing football in the UK, we used to get one game on a Sunday, and it was back when I got the tail end of Joe Montana, and there was Steve Young, Jerry Rice, and I was just like, "All right, I'm going to go with it.  They're cool, they're winning"!

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  So, when I was looking, one thing I liked about sports though, I would like how, even Kobe, he'll pull games back.  Like, how do you come back?  There's almost an art to comebacks.  You can't really explain it, but Tom has a way of coming back.  You watch so many games and winning that, "Okay, yeah, we won six Super Bowls".  At that time, we won three Super Bowls at the very end.  But it's like, where do you start noticing the shift?  Like I said earlier, it's always a shift, so I had to just start focusing on that shift.  And when I got to prison, this is the shift.

So now, you've got to piece together how are you going to come back; it doesn’t matter that you're here.

Peter McCormack: When was it that you went in, what year?

Justin Rhedrick: 2011.

Peter McCormack: 2011, okay.  And which prison did you go to; where were you sent to?

Justin Rhedrick: So, I first got sent to a youth centre called Polk Correctional Youth Institution, and those, they house people 21 and under.  So then, from there, I'd gone to this one prison, called Craggy, which is in Asheville, North Carolina.  I actually got kicked out of there; that was funny.

Peter McCormack: You got kicked out of prison?!

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, I got kicked out of prison!  I didn't want to work, man.  They were like, "You've got to do road squad".  "Man, I'm not here to work.  I'm going to do time".  "Well, you're not going to do it here".  So, then they sent me on to a prison called Mountain View.  I was there for a year and some change.  That's where I did a lot of deep dive studying on myself.  I started training hard, just doing the time.  And also, this is a really funny story.

We used to always hustle, always hustle.  You always had commerce going on.  If your family can't send you no money, you have to be able to hit that yard every day and go out there and find a way to do business, whether that's selling gambling tickets, letting out canteen, like a lending platform, but just how do you always keep money circulating.  And, that was something that really just kept my mind off things, it was a constant cycle; working out, hustling on the yard, doing business, whatever, every single day.  That translated into what I do now.

But when I had gone to prison, my only focus was, how the hell am I going to get better at life?  I'd already made a decision not to come back here, so we're going to have to do something that's going to put us on a different level when we get out.  So, when people asked me, "So, what are you going to do when you get home?" I said, "I don't know, I don't know what's out there".  People would send me letters saying there isn't much change, but hell, Bitcoin was around the whole damn time.

Peter McCormack: So, in jail, how rough were these prisons; were they minimal?

Justin Rhedrick: Most prisons were -- so, they were medium-custody prisons.  I never got to go to a lower-custody prison.  I actually got in a fight and that stopped me from being able to go.  I never went to a higher-custody prison, but the prison I was in, one of the roughest prisons on probably the other people, was this prison called Caledonia.  That's the same prison I learned how to box in.  There, I mean, I've seen guys…

I had a roommate one time.  He said, "Man, this dude is getting on my damn serves.  I'm going to hit him with a lock in a sock".  Then one day, he came in the room, he had a master lock in the sock, the guy was still messing with him again and he just hit him in the head with it.  There was some blood in the room.  I cleaned it up, I said, "You've got to act normal as possible when they come in here".  They ended up sending him to the hole.  He told them I had nothing to do with it, but I've seen some wild stuff.

This one guy, I think he either slashed, he did something, he cut a guy or stabbed a guy just so he could have some gang rank, right before he was going home.  I've seen a lot of crazy stuff in there.  But most of the prisons, like I said, Mountain View was pretty even-going.  Caledonia was, it was still easy-going, but you could tell any moment, something could happen.

Peter McCormack: You're obviously a smart dude, you're obviously one of those people who it was only going to be a one-time trip to prison, you're not going to end back there, but people do end up in the cycle.  What did you learn from the inside about prisons and what works, what doesn't work?

Justin Rhedrick: One thing I learnt about prison was -- when you mean "work", just like in life?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, because in an ideal world, we wouldn't have a lot of people in prison, certainly non-violent criminals.  I just did a previous interview with a guy called Avik, and we were talking originally about the medical system and how that works, and why it doesn't work in the US; and the main reason being is most of the hospitals is where the money goes to, and it's not popular for a politician to try and make these more efficient, because they're one of the biggest recruiters.

It just reminded me of this story, where I spent some time with Lyn Ulbricht, Ross Ulbricht's mother, and she works on prison reform and the idea of prison reform.  She said, a lot of the prisons are the largest employers in the towns they're in, so there's no incentive to reduce the prison population.  It is an industrial unit.

So, in an ideal world, you'd have people reformed in prison, leaving prison and being educated and not going back; and also, you would be trying to have lower sentences or no sentences for non-violent criminals, different ways of rehabilitating people.  What did you learn from it?

Justin Rhedrick: Number one, I actually met Lyn Ulbricht too.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, she's great, right?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, she's a great woman.  So, one of the things I learned is exactly how you said, and I agreed with Lyn as well.  All the prisons I had gone to were in these small towns, right.  So, the entire town works at the prison.  And they would say, "Hell, I've been working here ten years, so it feels like I've been locked up five years".  This is what the people who worked there would say.  So, on that end, there is really no incentive.

However, the real incentive is the people who make money off of prison, like I think the state of North Carolina would make $36,000 per inmate per year.  So, that's a lot of damn money.  I noticed that part and I noticed that money -- you were actually put into a system where you see, "Hey, we're not going to give you shit.  We're going to get all the money and you know you're not going to get nothing".  I've worked jobs in prison that paid $1 a day.

Peter McCormack: $1 a day?

Justin Rhedrick: $1, that's like a few cents an hour.  So, I noticed that a lot of times you have prisons where the work that the prisoners -- prison is actually legal slavery.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's a factory.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  They actually have been granted permission to say they're going to do that.  For instance, there is this programme where guys would actually go and build the prison and they'd pay the guys $15 a week.  They're like, "This is a $15 an hour at the minimum job", and look how much they're saving for inmates to build their own prison.

Peter McCormack: And so, the money from that prison, the operators of the prison keep the difference?

Justin Rhedrick: I think the operators of the prison.  Either that, or they're able to pay whatever company's going to help train those guys and get paid $15 a week.  I don't know where all the money goes, but when you really start looking at it, there's a lot of money that goes there and its own purpose, it doesn't go to the inmates, it doesn't go to anybody being rehabilitated, it just goes to the pockets of whoever is there.

Peter McCormack: It's such an obvious scam.  You put people in prison, you give them jobs, you pay them, did you say $1 an hour or a day?

Justin Rhedrick: I got paid $1 a day.

Peter McCormack: $1 a day.

Justin Rhedrick: So that accounts for -- what's 8 divided by 24?  Something like 5 cents an hour.  We'll go with 5 cents an hour for 8 hours.

Peter McCormack: And, you have a few dollars to spend in the, what's it called?

Justin Rhedrick: The canteen.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  And, there's obviously incentive for someone who works at the prison.  What kind of things were you doing, what kind of work; were you making shit?

Justin Rhedrick: So, I was a baker, I was a prep-cook, I washed dishes, I basically worked -- the only type of work I did was in the kitchen.

Peter McCormack: But that's internal for running the prison.  What about, are there firms who are outsourcing production?

Justin Rhedrick: Well, in North Carolina, at the prisons I was at, I can't say which firms they were precisely, but I do know of, let's see.  I think more times than not, it happens with the state, so let's take for instance road work, because I did do that at least one time.  Normally, that road work squad, road squad, that's for the city, that's for the county, that's for the state.  So, most of the work that inmates do, they are going to be for that state. 

Now, whomever that state prison, whatever companies might fund that state prison, then they might receive proceeds down the line on that front.  But more times than not, the work you're doing is for the state of North Carolina.  They have positions where you could be a butler for the Governor; I didn't want that!  But from what I remember, most of the stuff was just for the state.  So, you would go clean up the yard, anything you're going to do, I think one guy, they were tending food on this one farm and this farm produced food for all the other prisons in the state.

So, you would have these private companies, some that you probably would never know about, and they're having whatever arrangement they have worked out.

Peter McCormack: The incentive structure to have a business of prisons, it just seems wrong.  It just seems it's open for abuse.

Justin Rhedrick: It is; it's open for a monopoly.

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, I'm glad you're out.

Justin Rhedrick: Yes, sir.

Peter McCormack: Tell me about the day you got out?

Justin Rhedrick: The day I got out of prison, man --

Peter McCormack: What's the first thing you did?

Justin Rhedrick: What's the first thing I did?  Okay, when I got home, I remember my mum had made some food.  I ate that shit cold as hell.  I didn't even wait for it to heat up!  I had a phone and the first thing I did, man, I really experienced what gratitude was.  I just wanted to feel what it was like to be home.  I didn't go out, I think I stayed up until like 6.00am.  I stayed up all night, but I just wanted to remember what it was like not to have to wake up for count time.  I was just in the middle of gratitude, so it was no big, crazy part of nothing, it was just, "Damn, it's finally over and now the journey really begins".

Peter McCormack: So, when did Bitcoin come into this for you; was it while you were in?

Justin Rhedrick: No, it wasn't while I was in prison.  So, Bitcoin came in several ways.  So, I came home in 2014.  2015, I first see the movie, Dope.  It doesn't really click over that it's legit, but it started happening when, now this is the one part I'm trying to remember.  I think, so you know this guy, one day I'm in Charlotte, I'm in a gas station, I'm walking up and I hear somebody say, "Justin!"  I'm like, "Who the hell is that?"  He said, "It's me, Isaiah".

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I know, yeah.

Justin Rhedrick: Isaiah Jackson.

Peter McCormack: He wrote the book, Bitcoin & Black America.

Justin Rhedrick: So, I've been knowing Isaiah since I was 11 years old.

Peter McCormack: Oh, right, okay.

Justin Rhedrick: We grew up playing basketball together.

Peter McCormack: Who's better?

Justin Rhedrick: Me, come on!  I'm better now!

Peter McCormack: Would he agree when I ask him?

Justin Rhedrick: I mean, he should, but he won't.

Peter McCormack: I'll dial him up now.

Justin Rhedrick: Go!  I'll tell you one thing.  In 2021, I made 13 3s in flip flops in a 3-point shootout.  So, you know, I'm all right.

Peter McCormack: 13 straight?

Justin Rhedrick: I didn't make them all straight, but I did catch fire at the end, I think I made like six in a row, but it went down in Bitcoin 2021 history!  So, what else happened?  From there, I was just like, "All right, man".  We were catching up, he said, "How have you been?"  I was telling him about how I just came home from prison, this, that and the other and he said, "All right, follow me on Instagram", and Bitcoin's there, and I'm like, "All right, whatever".

So then, a few weeks or months passed by, I'm at my granddaddy's house, and he has a miner, old-school miner.  And I was like, "What is that on the table?"  He said, "Justin, it's going to mine me some Bitcoin!"  And my granddaddy's like 80-something, you know what I mean, and I was like, "Okay"!  And my mum and aunt were laughing at him.  But I looked at him, I was fresh out of prison, and I was like, "Well, what if he's right, though; what if he's right?"

Peter McCormack: How the fuck did he get into Bitcoin mining; that's what I want to know?!

Justin Rhedrick: I don't know!  A week later, after he passed, we found out that it wasn't mining any Bitcoin, but my granddaddy was a very disruptive, innovative type of person.  He bought stocks in Microsoft in the 1990s enterprise.  He sold, he didn't hodl, but it was all good.  But from there, I'm looking, I looked it up, it looked legit, but my real introduction to Bitcoin is getting scammed.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay.

Justin Rhedrick: So, I remember there was this company, well not a company, it was this site.  They were claiming to be a British lending platform that you can receive compound interest over this time, etc, and I was like, "Okay".  My mum told me about it, it seemed legit, I said, "Let's try it out".  I told Isaiah, I said, "Listen, man, check this out.  How do you think this is going to work?"  He said, "You're about to get scammed".

Peter McCormack: Yeah, of course you are!

Justin Rhedrick: I said, "How do you know?"  He said, "Ask for your money back".  I asked for my money back, emails started coming, all this stuff.  He said, "I told you".  I said, "All right".  I didn't care that I got scammed though, because people get scammed, you were getting scammed with fiat before Bitcoin, but you didn't stop using it.  And I was like, "All right, well…", and I knew Isaiah was legit.

Peter McCormack: Isaiah is legit, man.

Justin Rhedrick: So, I was like, "All right, Isaiah", and this is 2016.  So, I was like, "All right, man, I'm ready.  What do I need to do?"  So, one day, I went over to his house, we were just hanging out, and he said, "All right, well this is what Bitcoin is".  He said, "Well, it's like gold.  If you hold over time, it will go up in value.  You can spend it like money, like regular cash, and it's decentralised, so it's outside of government regulation and control".  That decentralised part stuck out!

Peter McCormack: "Outside of government control?  Tell me more!"

Justin Rhedrick: I'm going to tell you why it stuck out, though.  In prison, like I said before, you have to do a lot of hustling.  Now, you have ID cards and if your family can't send you money, well you have an ID card, but it's like a debit card.  They send you money, you can swipe it at the canteen to use it.  If they can't send you money, then you've got to use another currency.  That currency was stamps.  So, we would have small postage stamps on the yard that was money.  I think at that point in time, the US postal stamps was like 44 cents.  And so, on the yard, we cut the price to 30 to 35 cents, so everything was a bit cheaper, but the value was stamps.  So, I was already used to using decentralised money, as you will, in a closed economy amongst people.

Peter McCormack: Interesting.

Justin Rhedrick: So, when he said that, I'm like -- my mind, when I'm trying to learn something new, I will place it in an environment I've been in.  So I was like, "Well, let's look at it if I put Bitcoin in prison, how would that look?"  That's how it would just go around like that.  So I said, "Well, shit, this can work". 

Bitcoin was seven years old then.  I said, "Bitcoin can work; this is going to work", because I was already in a field where you aren't really using the said currency.  You had people who had a consensus saying, "Hey, this is what we're going to use".  So, I was like, "All right, this can work".  So from there, that was the introduction.

Peter McCormack: What was that, like 2015?

Justin Rhedrick: I bought my first sats 9 July 2016.

Peter McCormack: 2016, right.

Justin Rhedrick: And the type of jobs I was working, Bitcoin was around $600 then --

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I remember.

Justin Rhedrick: -- I still couldn't buy a whole Bitcoin.  If I bought a whole Bitcoin then, I probably wouldn't have no more money for the rest of the month.  So, it didn't matter though, it never mattered.  So, when I first bought some Bitcoin, I had never seen my money just move like that.  I was like, "Damn, this is what investing is like", seeing what this was like.  And I was like, "All right".

Then I started looking at something deeper.  I ran into this other guy, name of Miller El, D Miller El, and he would teach me about Bitcoin all the time too.  Then I started looking at something past the money and said, "There's an opportunity here", because I remember I was with my daughter and I was, man, I got tired of working all the dead-end jobs.  I used to work for $12 an hour, 12 hours a day.  I've seen a guy get a lightbulb bust in his eye, no insurance.  So, they weren't really treating you fair.  And I was like, "All right, cool, but we've got to do something different".

Peter McCormack: How old's your daughter?

Justin Rhedrick: Now, she's 5.

Peter McCormack: You missed that bit!  Have you got one kid?

Justin Rhedrick: No, I have a little boy too.

Peter McCormack: And how old's he?

Justin Rhedrick: He's 1.

Peter McCormack: Woah, you're in that zone!

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, he's whooping ass too!

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  My son's 17, my daughter's 11, but man, it's fun.

Justin Rhedrick: It is.  He's finally going to bed at night, so I've got to ride that out.  So, from there, I was like, "All right, well let's see, how am I going to get more Bitcoin?"  That was it, it was all about buying Bitcoin, because I saw the opportunity.  Like I say, I remember walking with my daughter, I said, "I need to be somewhere early".  My question was, "How are all these people getting billions of dollars?"  How was Zuckerberg getting this money; how is Elon; how are these people getting this money?  How are they doing this?

Then I started realising something I was looking for was those trends again, being early.  So I said, I remember before I learned about Bitcoin, I said, "Man, I just need to be involved in something that if I get there early enough, it could change my life forever".  So, when Isaiah was telling me about it, I would look online, I asked some guys I had gone to school with who had graduated, and I live in Charlotte, so Charlotte's a big finance city.  And I'm asking people around.  Everyone's dogging Bitcoin, "It's nothing, it's trash, it's this".

Peter McCormack: They still are, man.

Justin Rhedrick: And those were my indicators to go.  I was like, "All right, well y'all aren't that smart", because billionaires like Branson, Mark Cuban was actually for Bitcoin this time.  I remember a guy named Trace Mayer, a lot of guys were talking --

Peter McCormack: Trace Mayer, oh!  Do you know what, I miss Trace, I do.  I miss Trace.  I've interviewed him three or four times and I still don't know what fully happened at that event in Vegas where he was shilling some shitcoin.  I don't know why, like in my head he was, "This guy's rich.  What's going on?"  And I've tried to reach out to him, I've messaged him, no reply.  I know he did a CoinDesk thing.  I want to talk to him.  I miss Trace.  I know he fucked up in people's eyes, but I want to know why.

Justin Rhedrick: You've got to find out why.

Peter McCormack: He's smart.

Justin Rhedrick: I remember, he was the first guy I ever heard say, "Hey, what if America put 1% of their national debt into Bitcoin?"  I heard this in 2016; I was like, "Damn!"

Peter McCormack: Well, they wouldn't have this $29 trillion debt now.

Justin Rhedrick: So, I'm hearing these guys talk and I'm like, "Well, let's run with what these guys are saying", and then that's where I started noticing how life was really taking off.  I would call Isaiah, I would call my friend, D, my boy, D, almost every day.  I remember I would be -- because in prison, one thing I learned I knew how to do was learn.  If you ever ask me what I'm the 1% at is learning.  I focused on increasing the skill of learning.

So, when it came to Bitcoin, I was like, "Man, let's go".  I was in my mum's basement.  You'd have probably seen me like, how do they say?  A shadowy coder.  I'm just on YouTube learning Bitcoin, trial and error everything.  Like I said, I used to go out and teach people just simple ways to set up a wallet.  I remember one time, I asked someone, "How can I get some Bitcoin?"  He said, "Well, sell some Bitcoin".  "I don't have any".  He said, "They don't know that.  Tell them you're going to go buy them some Bitcoin, put a premium on and keep the Bitcoin".  I did that before the Feds deemed that illegal.  But yeah, it was always about getting Bitcoin, man.

Peter McCormack: It sounds like it's back to the hustle of the prison yard?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, but it was different, because I had a money that worked, and I noticed it from the get-go.  I was just like, "Yo, this thing shoots up".  I remember when I was first buying it, around $600, then it had gone up and crashed badly; well, it didn't crash that bad.  But when I was buying it then, it started rising up.  You've got the whole 2016, 2017 run.

Peter McCormack: Dude, July 2016 is a good point to hit.  So, I know because I first bought my first Bitcoin 2013, maybe even 2012.  I can't remember the dates, because I was using the Silk Road, right.  But I wasn't hodling, I wasn't studying it, I was buying my gear and then getting on with my life.  I did some trading, I bought some, I lost some, etc.  But I didn't really pay any attention to it.

By the way, my first Bitcoin was, I think, £80.  So, I should go and track the price back.  It was 2012, 2013, then it crashed and I was like, "Oh, this thing's dead".  And I used to keep going back, every now and again looking at the price, and it went all the way down to, what, £250.  Then it started going back up and I was like, "I wonder if it is?"  For a different reason, I rebought December 2016.  It was a good time, man.  You get in anywhere around that time, you were good through to the end of 2017.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, so when it was going up, going up, $20,000 range, I was like, "This is the most money I've ever had".  And then --

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I know what's coming!

Justin Rhedrick: -- that bear kicked in and I was just like, "Woah!"  The bear market was where I was really made, because folks would stop talking about Bitcoin, so I had to look for different ways of entrepreneurship.  I did coaching, I used to cook vegan food and deliver it out from my house to earn Bitcoin.  I used to cut grass.  All I could think about was, if I buy more of this now, I will be better off later.

Peter McCormack: Dude, I love the bear market. 

Justin Rhedrick: I wish it would come back.

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  That period from top to bottom's always rough, because you have to go, "Right, I have to accept my net wealth is going to drop by this much".  Maybe you sell a bit, but the real work's done in the bear market.  It's the education, it's the business growth, it's personal growth.  It's too busy to do stuff in a bull market, there's too much crazy shit going on.  I mean, I don't know if we'll have one like previous, maybe the cycle breaks, but I've really enjoyed the bear market.

Justin Rhedrick: I can look back on the bear market and just pray for another one, because I was in a different -- I would buy Bitcoin, but Bitcoin was my introduction into the financial literacy world.  Before Bitcoin, I had no investments.  The only thing I ever had was a checking and a savings account, so I didn't really understand what was going on.  But I knew that Bitcoin was something that could work.

So then I started.  I got tired of getting intellectually beat up by financial advisers or people, so I went to go and look at different markets.  I didn't necessarily buy, I just wanted to get educated on what was around me.

Peter McCormack: You figured it out yourself?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  So, I got denied life insurance three times because of my record, and my agent said, "So, what are you going to do?"  "Well, shit, I'm just going to keep buying Bitcoin.  Pretty much, you're doing the same thing.  I'm giving you money, I've got to wait for a return on it, but you get to hold it.  Why can't I do this; I already have an asset that's doing this?"  So, I started comparing it to other assets out there and it still didn't stack up well, nothing stacked up well to Bitcoin, but I had to learn how to keep it, because there was also a time where I knew I had to develop myself into a better entrepreneur, because I knew I was going to do entrepreneurship.  I wasn't about to do any jobs, I had to do entrepreneurship; there was no other way, so I had to get better at that.

I had to get better at networking, I had to get better at sales calls, I had to get better at all this type of stuff within that bear market time, because I knew the type of money I was making then, once Bitcoin keeps rising, these little bitty buys here are not going to add -- I mean, they add up, but after a while you start thinking, "Damn, I want to flip 10 million satoshis at a time, DCA 10 million satoshis at a time".  Then I was like, well, I'm going to have to build up this.  But then, I had a lot of stuff to learn. 

So, Bitcoin really exposed what I did not know about finances.  It helped me get better real quick, and there's still some things I'm looking to learn.  I'm always learning, and that's something I talk about in my book; you've always got to be open to learn, especially when you don't know nothing.  It's cool not knowing something, but it's stupid just to sit there and just try to figure it out on your own.  So, with Bitcoin though, when I really understood what it was, it was just, "Well, we're going to have to get it by any means that's legal and ethical".  But it was a driving force and without Bitcoin, I hate to say it, I don't know where the hell I'd be today.

Peter McCormack: Do you know what, I feel similar.  I don't know how much you know, but anyone who's listened regularly will be like, "Shut the fuck up, Pete, we've heard this several times, it's so boring", but it's changed my entire life, financially and with the podcast.  It came along just at the time I needed it and I went from losing everything, job, family, career, mum, everything; and then out of it came this podcast and my investments and it completely changed my life.  So, I understand that, dude.

So, let's talk about the vegan thing.  It is interesting to me because, like I told you before, I did 16 years vegetarian and then 2 years vegan, but there was a gap; so I went 16 to 26 as a vegetarian, then I stopped being a vegetarian.  And then, when I was about 30, I think about 30, I went back to vegetarian, and then when my mum got sick, she went vegan, so I went vegan with her.  And I did it with her, but there are ethical things, there were ethical reasons.  I don't like industrial farming.  If I knew where my meat came from, I would be very picky about it.  When I'm back home, I only get grass-fed beef, etc.  But if you go out to dinner at a restaurant, you've got no idea.  I think industrial farming is fucking gross.

Justin Rhedrick: It's really wild.  But yeah, for me, when I went vegan, man, I was going hard at my gym, down boxing in Charlotte, and I was getting ready for my very first fight, and I wanted to be lean and clean and cut.  So, the algorithm on Instagram starts showing me this guy by the name of Dr Sebi, and I was like, "Well, let's give it a shot".  He kept telling me about how you eat is a direct correlation of your health and I said, "Well, I'm willing to try anything".  This was before Bitcoin.  Veganism came in before Bitcoin.

I remember I was on a Greyhound Bus from Atlanta and I was sitting next to this guy.  We were both kind of cramped and this one woman said, "Hey, you want to sit beside me?"  I said, "Sure".  It turned out she was a Patriots fan.

Peter McCormack: Nice!

Justin Rhedrick: But she was also vegan.  I was like, "Well, are you willing to help me go vegan?"  She said, "Yeah".  So, she coached me on how to eat vegan through Snapchat.  I would order the food, buy the food, cook it, but it was a big change.

Peter McCormack: It's hard.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  And I wanted that, because I was about to have a daughter, I wanted to just introduce her to a different way of eating.  I noticed that everybody ate the same and then didn't understand, "Why am I gaining so much weight; why am I having these problems?"  "Well, you haven't stopped what you're eating all the time".  Even if you never go vegan, you can at least give your body some type of a change, just to see what it's like.

But during that time, I was just ready to change everything.  I came home from prison, I wanted to leave everything that -- I just wanted a big change, and I needed big challenges.  Vegan was one of them, and actually going vegan made it easier for me to come into Bitcoin.  I started seeing similarities.  People would talk shit to me about being vegan, "Oh, you eat grass" etc, and I got into Bitcoin, "Oh, you think you know everything".  I was like, "I'm catching hell from everybody for years".  And they were just like, "Well, you're doing this, that and the other".  But then, as time goes on, you look like a damn genius!

Peter McCormack: I mean, I was a vegan at the time I got back into Bitcoin, because I was getting the medical treatment for my mum.  And it's probably the healthiest -- some people listening will be the carnivore types listening to this going, "Vegans are unhealthy".  I've seen all this bullshit.  Any diet can be healthy, as long as you're doing it the right way, and doing it can be unhealthy.  But it was the healthiest I was in my life for a few reasons.

Firstly, I was eating clean, I was cooking every single meal fresh; fresh veg and I learnt about all these different recipes.  But you also have to have a lot of discipline to be a vegan, so I was quite disciplined at the time.  I was disciplined with my time, I was running, I was slim, my times were fast.  I was running a 23-minute 5k and a 53-minute 10k.  I couldn't run 5k now.

Justin Rhedrick: God damn, that's good!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but I was running, the guy, Rich Roll, got me into podcasting, I was listening to his.  I felt good.  Many times, Justin, I'm telling you now, even as someone who loves a steak, I've thought about going back to being a vegan, because I had to have discipline around my time, and because I had that, I had it around my diet, my exercise.  My whole life was a lot more disciplined, so I enjoyed it.

Justin Rhedrick: That transition was real great.  And I'm just starting to notice with veganism, you're eating outside a standard diet; with Bitcoin, you're not using a standard money.  So, one day I went on Google, I typed in Bitcoin vegan; nothing came up.

Peter McCormack: I typed in… this guy!

Justin Rhedrick: Instagram, nothing came up.  Then I called Isaiah, I said, "Man, I don't know what I'm about to do, but Bitcoin Vegan is going to be the name of it".  He said, "All right, just run with it".  Again, that was in 2016, so here we are again, man.  I just started noticing similarities about wanting to do something different.  I wanted everything.  I wanted the hardships, I wanted the challenge, because I knew that's the only way you're going to get it; you work on it.  I needed something new.

When I came home from prison, I told someone, "Man, if I can go to Harvard I would"; I wanted the challenge.  When Bitcoin came around, it was like, "This is all you need.  This is all the challenge you need right here".  That was those moments right there, 2015, 2016, 2017 were some real defining moments in my life.  I was 24, 25 and I was just, "Man, whatever you do, you've got to do it now, because you're mid-20s, you can still, in your 30s, you've got to make a run; and if you make the run now, you won't be all the way up into your 30s still trying to figure it out.  You'll still be relatively young in the business and investment world, so you've got to make moves immediately".  That's what I saw, so I had to just make the shot, man!

Peter McCormack: It worked out for you.

Justin Rhedrick: Yes, sir.

Peter McCormack: When did you write the book?

Justin Rhedrick: I wrote the book in the middle of the pandemic.  What was funny, I was challenged to write the book by…?

Peter McCormack: Isaiah?

Justin Rhedrick: Exactly. 

Peter McCormack: I knew that was coming!

Justin Rhedrick: So, when he got his first national interview, I called him up, I said, "Congrats, bro", etc.  He didn't say, "You're welcome", he didn't say, "Thank you"; he said, "So, when are you going to write your book?"  I was like, "Well, I didn't think about it".  He said, "Well, you need to think about it".  I was like, "All right".  Isaiah has this weird way of saying things; it's like, "You know, you might want to do this?"  I was like, "All right". 

Then I had a business coach, her name was Jen Gaudet.  She said, "Justin, when are you going to write a book?"  I was like, "Well, damn, if two people tell me something that don't know each other, I take it as a sign of, all right, let's get it going".  So, I think I first started putting ink to paper around April 2020, because I was just trying to find a stopping point.  At first, I used to wake up at 5.00am, write for about an hour every morning, until I was like, "Man, this shit's going to take forever".  And, you know, it's 2020 and there has to be a better way to write a book now.  So, I was like, "Let's try to transcribe".

So, I would talk into my phone and I was still at DoorDash.  I was driving DoorDash for a living and to get Bitcoin, but especially once COVID really, really hit, DoorDash was what I was doing.  You can make so much money in a short amount of time without wasting your gas, because no one was going anywhere.  I was like, "Well, this is a good time to do that and buy Bitcoin".  But while I was with DoorDash, I would record me talking into the phone, which chapter I'm on, stop it.  Then, I would get all the chapters laid out, I would edit them, copy, paste it on the Google Doc form, send it off.

When I had everything together, I gave it to my editor, Miss Erica, and from there, it was just part of the process, man.  So, I started writing the book in 2020.  And sometimes people say, "Well, it didn't take you that long to finish the book".  I say, "Well, it kind of took me 15 years, because that's how much is in the book, from 2006 all the way up until 2020".

Peter McCormack: What's the reception been like?

Justin Rhedrick: A lot of people are liking the book, a lot of people love the cover, and sometimes people are like, "I thought you were talking about gold bars or rapping bars".  I'm like, "Well, there are prison bars on the cover!"

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but you listed me your heroes and you put down 50, so I thought maybe!

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, 50 is in there!

Peter McCormack: How's he the number one rapper you put out there; come on, man?

Justin Rhedrick: He's not the number one, he's not even my favourite rapper.

Peter McCormack: Why's he on the list then?

Justin Rhedrick: I'll tell you why he's on the list, because 50 to me, out of everyone I've seen come home from prison, 50 was the GOAT.  He's not even a rapper.  He was just a businessman that could hustle.  He came in the game rapping, he rapped of course, but now he writes a series on stars.  50 had a way to come into the industry that when I was in prison, I was like, "Who could I actually model something after?"  Well, look how 50 Cent did.  He busted on the scene to the rap industry; he never stopped.  He never stopped, he just kept going, and when I learnt about Bitcoin, I saw it, and I was like, "Okay, it's a money, but there's an opportunity to build yourself; there's an industry here".  So I was like "Well, let's try that out".  So, it was just how he came home from prison.

Peter McCormack: Who's your hip hop GOAT?

Justin Rhedrick: You don't want to know that!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I do, come on.

Justin Rhedrick: I like Gucci Mane, I like him.

Peter McCormack: Not for me, man, not for me.

Justin Rhedrick: Who do you like, man?

Peter McCormack: Oh, God, do you know, I rate the Ruggedman.

Justin Rhedrick: No, I haven't heard any.

Peter McCormack: Dude, I'll play you him.  Oh, God, who do I like?  There's Jeru the Damaja, do you know Jeru the Damaja?

Justin Rhedrick: I've never heard of him.

Peter McCormack: Dude, I've got some bars for you.  Not from me, I'd be fucking terrible!

Justin Rhedrick: Send me the info on Twitter, then I'll look them up, man.

Peter McCormack: I bet you like Mobb Deep?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, I like Mobb Deep.

Peter McCormack: I don't like any of the new stuff.  My son's into it.  I just think it sounds like shit.

Justin Rhedrick: Let me think.  All right, so a rapper that I like that's before Gucci, it was just random guys probably, but I always like Tupac.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, of course.

Justin Rhedrick: I like Jay-Z.  I like how he handles business though, and that's where certain rappers stand out to me.  It's not really your lyrics, it's how you handle your business.  Even with Gucci Mane, I'm not saying he's the greatest businessman of all times, but there was a point in time where he was just always going to jail, going to jail, but he would come right back out and get right back to work.  It's like, how could you knock that work ethic?

That's another thing; how much work ethic do you really have?  You don't have no work ethic, I can't sit here and say you're going to be a great rapper, or you're going to be great at anything.  So, these guys had superb work ethic.

Peter McCormack: Proof of work.

Justin Rhedrick: Right.  And how did you handle being a star and also business.  I didn't really know this, but how did you continuously promote longevity, because a lot of guys would fizzle out at one or two songs, you don't hear from them no more.  So, it was about, who can promote the best longevity, and I didn't really have anything to pattern after.  So, that's why those guys.  Like, everybody I have as a favourite, it's not necessarily just because of their craft, it's about what lies within them, a certain character trait; what character trait do they have? 

I wonder how much work ethic you're willing to put in; what will not stop you?  Will the price of Bitcoin stop you from buying Bitcoin?  More times than not, it does for most people.  But when you're really dedicated to something, you start to see the power of how bad you want something can get you anywhere.  Really, how bad I wanted it got me to where I am today; the number one Bitcoin podcast in the world!

Peter McCormack: So, what's the plan now, man; what are you doing now; what does the future hold?

Justin Rhedrick: So, the plan now is to, of course, continually promote the book.  But also, I'm looking now to do book tours, I'm reaching out to different companies about sponsorships, and also looking to do projects where I can go inside prisons and actually teach Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: That's cool.

Justin Rhedrick: I'm in talks with people.  I don't know how much it's down to them.  I bet you if this bull market kicks in, people will be ready to do something.

Peter McCormack: But do you know what, maybe the angle's slightly different.  Maybe it's just saying you're going to teach financial literacy?

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah, and that's we said actually in the --

Peter McCormack: Trojan horse.

Justin Rhedrick: -- documents, but you had COVID come up and institutions are starting to be like, "Well, we've got to hold back".  But my idea is to, number one, be able to teach the authentic, real power of Bitcoin within the country, within the world, through a book tour; also, take that same type of knowledge and show people who are in prison who are coming home how you can use Bitcoin to your advantage.  But it's still teaching the globe and working on a few projects with a few Bitcoin companies to see just what can be done, opening up that landscape.

But from there, then possibly -- not possibly; look to build a Satoshi-standard business.  So, it's not going to be the same.  I don't want it to be the same.  You see everybody has some type of financial DCA company, and that's cool; it's the space we're in.  But I look at it, if we're going to have a decentralised community, that means you're going to have to have other services where bitcoiners are running this company.  It's a Bitcoin company, but it doesn't provide an everyday dollar-cost-average service, an everyday exchange.  I mean, those things are great, but again, if you want a community and you want Bitcoin to be the money of that community, you want to have different companies built, period.  So, just continuously taking that to whatever the next level is.

Peter McCormack: Well, I love your hustle, man.  And anyone who turns their life around, I've bored people to death with the shit that I've been through.  But when you hit a really bad situation, it affects you mentally as well and it affects you as a person, as a man, to try and turn your life around is hard.  But it takes a lot of work, a bit of luck, but I really like your story.  I'm glad you did it and I really appreciate you coming in.  I appreciate you keep badgering me to do this!  If I'd have known…

The Bitcoin Vegan thing is like, "I don't want a fucking vegan in here!"  Now, I just feel guilty, because I kind of want to be a vegan again. 

Justin Rhedrick: I've got you, man, it's all good, don't worry about it.

Peter McCormack: Well, do you know what, it's one of those things where, like I said, it takes a lot of discipline, a lot of work, especially with travelling.  So, I did it for a year.  I took a year off work after my marriage broke up, then my company failed.  And my mum was sick, so I did it for a year, it was easy.  Then after my mum passed, it became difficult, because I was --

Justin Rhedrick: Because that's the person you were doing it with.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I'll tell you something else though.  What happened was, when you don't work, filling a whole day is hard.  I took a year off work.  I would have naps in the middle of the day because I was bored.  I would run, or I'd go to the gym; I'd do anything.  I was doing Pilates with old ladies three days a week just to do something.

So, to go to buy some fresh veg and go and make a meal and find a recipe, and spend an hour cooking a meal was filling my time, right.  And then what happened was, when I went back to work, I didn't have the time, so I started having processed foods and pastas and pasta sauces, and I just ended up feeling shit.  So, it was a lifestyle thing.

But I would like to have the discipline to do it again, and maybe I don't it full time; maybe I just do it for a few months.  But it was a time in my life where I'd come out of a really shit situation, I had most clarity, had most discipline and felt good.  So, it isn't something I wouldn't be scared to do again.

Justin Rhedrick: It might have been just the fact that you needed it to be -- to bring that clarity.

Peter McCormack: Dude, I did need it at that time.

Justin Rhedrick: When you go through something, I always notice, people make a change in their diet when they're in the middle of a transition.  You're trying to, not run from a situation, but you're trying to grow from it.  And veganism was that thing and like you said, rest in peace to your mother, that's something you did and the fact of that timing thing, people never take that into consideration.  You know, "I've been doing this at this pace, I'm good"; you never just implement something that just works.  Things are going to happen where time is going to be altered a bit, and going back to work is something that's legit, because you never really planned on how to do this and work at the same time.  But I think you can do it, man.

Peter McCormack: Got to do the work, man!  All right, tell people where to get the book, where do they follow you?

Justin Rhedrick: You can get the book from -- well, the book is live on Amazon, From Bars to Bitcoin, on Amazon; or, you can go to my website, bitcoinvegan.com, and just press the Shop page; it's the first thing you can buy.  You can follow me on Twitter, @bitcoin_vegan.  You can follow me on Instagram, @bitcoinveganjustin, or at LinkedIn, Justin Rhedrick.

Peter McCormack: Who the fuck got BitcoinVegan on Twitter?

Justin Rhedrick: Some spam bot page.  I don't know who the hell got there before me, but I was just like, "What?"

Peter McCormack: We need to get that for you.

Justin Rhedrick: Yeah.  Tell Jack to holler me, man, please.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, come on, Jack, get your shit together!  Dude, love this story, man, great to see you.  Hopefully you can come to the fight Saturday; let's see if we can make that happen, I got you on that.  And, yeah, appreciate you reaching out and thanks for coming in and anything I can do for you, you just let me know, dude.

Justin Rhedrick: Well, thank you, man, thank you.  First of all, I appreciate this whole experience.  Again, I told someone, "As long as you say yes, opportunities will be there", and hell, I got flown out for an interview!  So, it's definitely cool, man, and we'll be in touch though.

Peter McCormack: Well, it won't be the last time.  You, me and Isaiah will do one.  I'll just throw a grenade out and just watch you two go for it!

Justin Rhedrick: Hey, do that, I like that!  Just because you know I'll probably walk out the best basketball player again!

Peter McCormack: Hey, my son would give you a go.  Do you know what, I shot my first gun in North Carolina, true story.

Justin Rhedrick: Really?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  My third interview, with Jameson Lopp.  I interviewed him and I was like, "Jameson, I want to interview you and I want to shoot a gun".  So, we were in Raleigh, he took me to the gun range and I shot my first gun.  That was when I stopped being a vegan!

Justin Rhedrick: Oh, so we've got to blame Lopp?

Peter McCormack: No, we've got to blame me for just being a dick!  So, what actually happened was, this is funny, I just remember this.  So, what happened was, we went to shoot the guns and afterwards, he took me to a barbecue.  I was thinking, "Look at this big, long-bearded dude.  He just took me to shoot guns".  I just didn't feel like I could turn round to him and say, "I'm a vegan"!  So, I ended up having a barbecue with him.  I was like, "Fucking hell, damn, this is a good barbecue".

Justin Rhedrick: How did you feel afterwards?

Peter McCormack: I felt great, it was good, man.  But I do regret it, because I've kind of got out of shape again and I just don't have that discipline.  It plays on my mind, man.

Justin Rhedrick: You're going to end up doing it.

Peter McCormack: I think I will.  It might not be one of those forever things.  I might just do three months, or something.

Justin Rhedrick: I think you're going to find your stride; I think that's what you're looking for, just a stride to interject it back in there with everything you have going on.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's a focus, like focus that energy, man. But we'll see. All right, listen, great to meet you, man. All the best. Stay in touch. Anything you need, you've got my details, all right?