WBD382 Audio Transcription

Bitcoin On-chain & Macro Analysis with Will Clemente & Dylan LeClair

Interview date: Friday 6th August

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Will Clemente & Dylan LeClair. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this episode, I talk to on-chain analyst Will Clemente, and Bitcoin Magazines Director of Financial Markets & Research Dylan LeClair. We discuss the recent Bitcoin price action and the current macroeconomic backdrop.

“The models all break to the upside if the trust is lost in the system, if the legacy market cracks...then bitcoin’s going to moon in dollar terms again because that marginal seller is like - wait, I don’t need to sell, I don’t want to sell, this is the only thing I want to own.”

— Dylan LeClair

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Right, here we go; it's my zoomer show.  Will, welcome to the podcast.  Will, we haven't spoken yet, so welcome.

Will Clemente: Hey Peter, thanks for having me on.

Peter McCormack: You're having a hell of a year, right?

Will Clemente: Yeah, not too bad; a lot has changed for me over the last 6 to 12 months.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, you've picked up 150,000 Twitter followers and you're now a regular on the number two Bitcoin podcast.

Will Clemente: I see how you slipped that in there but yeah, it's been pretty wild and I'm still in disbelief of how fast this has taken off.  Shout out to the Bitcoin community.

Peter McCormack: Dude, all well-deserved, man, and we're going to get into that.  Dylan, it was great having you on the show recently.  I got so much amazing feedback, I got a bunch of emails from people saying that you gave them faith in the youngsters and support the idea that university is probably a waste of time and money.  So, appreciate you coming back on, dude.

Dylan LeClair: Thanks for having me on.

Peter McCormack: You got a little bit of feedback yourself coming on the show that was helpful?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, I got a ton outreach.  Foss was the man, just in general it was a pretty fun recording.

Peter McCormack: Foss is definitely the man.  Well, look, it's great to get you both on.  This will be a show I'll definitely stick in front of my son as well.  I don't mean that in any kind of condescending way, but I just want to show him it's not just old fuckers like -- actually, do you know what, I think I figured out beforehand; remind me, Dylan, how old are you?

Dylan LeClair: 20.

Peter McCormack: And, Will, how old are you?

Will Clemente: I'm 19.

Peter McCormack: Basically, your ages don't even add up to my age; that's how fucking old I am!  I think it's really important that we have younger people coming in, different perspectives.  There's some clear differences with the likes of yourselves.  You've grown up at a time that's only known internet and mobile phones, a different kind of gaming culture, probably a different approach to a number of things.  So, I think it's really important that we raise up different voices in Bitcoin, especially across the age range and you two are clearly both very talented, so it's great to get you both on the show.  I will do my best not to be just a condescending old twat, especially as you're both smarter than me anyway, so I will do my best.

Let's start with Will.  Will, you came along into the Bitcoin scene quite recently; you've been blowing up.  What happened; how did you arrive here?  Give us the back story.

Will Clemente: It was after my freshman year.  I was doing this overnight stocking job and I started listening to Preston Pysh's podcast.  Of course, he's focused on value investing and the whole Warren Buffett free cashflow predicting and the future kind of thing.  When you do that, what you're basically doing is making this underlying assumption that the measurement, your unit of measurement is sound, but of course we know fiat is not sound.  So, understanding that problem then led me to trying to look for the solution and that led me to Bitcoin eventually.  

So, I just went down the rabbit hole like everybody else, listening to podcasts and all that.  Then I put out a couple of articles about Bitcoin's role in the financial system.  Then I think Preston Pysh was the first person who actually retweeted one of my articles.  Then I went from 500 followers at the time and I went to 2,000 or 3,000.  I kept putting out these articles and people kept reposting them.

Yeah, and then I actually listened to a podcast you did with Willy in late December or something like that, basically talking about the market from an on-chain perspective, and just hearing the way that he described the market was really interesting to me, because of course it was unlike anything in traditional finance.  So, hearing him on your podcast really sparked my interest, and then I just went down the rabbit hole listening to different podcasts, YouTube videos that he was in and some of the other more well-known people in the on-chain space, and just trying to pick their brains and see what they were looking at.  From there, it's just taken a way of its own.

Peter McCormack: What were you studying in college?

Will Clemente: So I've switched my major four or five times now.  I went in as management and then I went to entrepreneurship.  I actually started a small business in my dorm, but we ended up shutting it down because of COVID.  Then I went in for computer science, I took an online computer science course, realised it was not what I thought it was at all and then ditched that.  Then, now we're back to finance!

Dylan LeClair: Sounds like you should drop out.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I was going to say, did you ever think of dropping out like Dylan?

Will Clemente: Yeah, Dylan's been putting the pressure on me to drop out for three months.  Dylan and I, I don't even know what month it was we met, it's been a long time now that Dylan and I have been pretty close, keeping in touch.  But Dylan, he was way ahead of me in terms of realising that the opportunity here is just to focus on Bitcoin, and the opportunity cost of not being involved in this space is massive.  He's been putting the pressure on me for a while, but I'm on the edge; I want to make sure that I have an established income source before I make that leap.  But this semester, I'm just taking some of my classes off; I'm going to take two or three classes instead of the full five.

Peter McCormack: All right.  Cool, man.  Whatever you do, I'm sure it will be the right decision.  College is right for some people and it isn't right for others.  I'm a drop out, but I'm a moron.  Dylan's smart; he dropped out.  I'm sure if you did, you'd be a success, and I'm sure if you continue and finish your college program that you'll be a success anyway. 

But the stuff you've been doing is super interesting.  You've definitely been making waves through Bitcoin; people love your work that you're doing on Twitter and you've just got this mad new following.  How do you take it all in and what's your thoughts on this, because you must be weighing up the different opportunities in life like, "How much time should I spend on my college work; how much time should I spend on Bitcoin?"  You must be pretty busy.

Will Clemente: Yeah, absolutely.  Luckily right now, I'm on summer, so I haven't really had to face the full-blown what's been going on in the last couple of months and weigh that against school and figure out how to allocate my time that way, but it's definitely going to be tricky.  Just the outreach by the Bitcoin community has just been massive and I'm still in disbelief that I have the size of the following that I do, because I personally think there's a lot of people way smarter than me with much less followers.

But I guess people just find the whole on-chain thing really fascinating.  It's cool to see other people take this liking to that as well, and it's cool to see Willy's following blow up too and people really find the stuff that he's putting on interesting too.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but dude, you're going to have people who are way dumber than you with more followers; it's just the fucking way it is.  If you're providing value, you're going to get followers.  Another thing I just want to ask you about, obviously you're studying Finance.  Do you talk much about this to your fellow college mates, do you talk about it to your friends?  What's the view on Bitcoin amongst people your age, because what I've found is that, depending on the age of the people I talk to, there's a completely different response. 

When I talk to my son and his mates, none of them see Bitcoin for what it really is and they just see cryptocurrencies as a whole.  I was chatting to a lad this morning and he's been ploughing into Bitcoin and Doge.  He had no understanding of the difference and he hasn't spent time on it.  I know you two probably have a different perspective because you're closer to it, it's not a hobby thing; this is a significant part of your life.  But talking through to your friends, what's your experience?

Will Clemente: I'm sure Dylan will have a lot of similar things to say that I do, but I think in general people still have that very short attention span, very short timeframe of thinking too.  People are just looking for what's pumping, and then everyone of course just wants to get on the train of what's the next coin that's going up.  Group chats I'm in with my friends and stuff, I had to leave a lot of them, because the whole Reddit thing, they're picking the next train to hop on and they're not necessarily looking for any long-term investment that they can build a future off of. 

That's the way I see Bitcoin and I think the real challenge for me is trying to get my friends to shift towards that frame of thinking, because I think subconsciously through inflationary monetary policy over time, just incentivising materialism and short-timeframe thinking in general.  But also now we have TikTok and all this stuff, which I don't go on any of that but a lot of my friends do, and it's just you lower people's attention span down to 15, 20 seconds.  So, you really need to hook them in that first interaction or else, they're just going to tune out and forget about it.

For me, it's trying to get them to shift their thinking into more long term and building a future for yourself and understanding, yeah, maybe Bitcoin is going to get outperformed by CumRocket, but over the next five to ten years you can build a solid foundation for your future on Bitcoin, which you can't on whatever coin you want to pick.  That's been the biggest challenge for me; getting them to shift their underlying frame of thinking. 

Then also you need to have some kind of visual.  I use the stock-to-flow model.  I don't follow it to a tee, but I think it's a great way to get people into the space and just get people to understand the correlation between Bitcoin scarcity and the price.  I've a lot of friends that literally have no understanding about even basic supply and demand functions, so having these special colours and stuff and they can follow and see where there's scarcity and the supply's going to cut in half, that clicks for them.  So, that's been helpful to me.  I'm curious, Dylan, do you feel the same way?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah.  For sure, there's definitely a high time preference thinking that's engrained in our society like the Reddit thing is so true; it's all you've got to do, man, is make an income, spend less than you make, and stack sats, and that's it.  And it's too easy; just hold, stack and do nothing and learn and you can post memes, you can do whatever. 

But it's like, "No, I'm going to hop from Tesla Cars to GME to AMC to Dogecoin to whatever bubble next", and in the end a lot of these people, maybe they're up in dollars but are we in hyperinflation now?  No, but we're in somewhat of a hyperinflationary asset bubble.  So, a lot of these people are just treading water, maybe not even, so it's unfortunate.  But I think most people will come around to Bitcoin and the market will speak to that.

Peter McCormack: It's quite a unique position that you guys have with this, because I didn't really start, on my personal level, taking my financial future seriously until after I got divorced, because I had to rethink my model for saving because essentially my assets got cut by 70%.  Yeah, I was essentially 23 years from the age I wanted to retire if I was to retire at 60, and also it feels like a long time; it really isn't when you've lost a lot of what you've done. 

Then again, I didn't really start understanding the value of savings until I discovered Bitcoin, and we're talking about the last four or five years.  Even in that period, I've had a time when I've been wiped out.  Yet, one of the things I'm trying to say to my son is, "You're 17.  You could just put a small amount of money away every month into Bitcoin.  By the time you hit my age, this could be a very serious amount of money that you're living on". 

It's not a huge amount you have to save, but back when I was younger, and I don't mean this in any kind of, "Oh, in my day…" but we didn't have the internet; there was no way I could ever have been trading.  The only way I ever made money is get a job, save, get a job, save.  There wasn't the opportunity to invest in something like Bitcoin.  So, you guys are in a unique position where you can get a head start on the next generation, because you have this opportunity now which we didn't have.

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, it's a once-in-a-generation thing, maybe not even once in a generation; it's monetisation process of Bitcoin, like a new money coming of age or the rise of this new alien technology, is a once-in-a-humanity-type thing.  Maybe that sounds super outlandish to someone that's not studied up and really deep down this rabbit hole, but it's true.  I only have once chance at this, Will only has one chance at this, we all do. 

At 18, 19, 20 years old, it's still fun, I still like to party a little bit, I still like to spend occasionally; but for the most part, I'm trying to save as much value as I can for my future self while it's still this cheap.  A year ago, I was saving four times as much as I am today in Bitcoin terms, and that's how you have to think of things if you want to stay ahead in this rate race.

Peter McCormack: It's definitely a unique time.  You know what, Will, you make a really good point on the TikTok thing, because my daughter has TikTok and she shows me and shows me the videos she's watching.  It's on my phone, I've never used it, but there's a thing that came up on Instagram recently, it was TikTok.  It was one of these reels and I've never seen it before and I looked at it.  I was still there 40 minutes later just going through these videos.  It's quite addictive to keep watching it but you suddenly realise you've wasted a whole hour. 

Then I was thinking, "What is the total time that she's potentially wasting each time if I'm not sat there monitoring her, and how else could that time be used productively?"  I know she needs to be a kid and enjoy herself, but actually these screens have become an addiction, they've become a bit of a plague amongst youngsters.  How could this time be used productively?  Could they be learning a musical instrument?  Could they be making something?  But they're not; she's literally addicted to this thing, video after video after video.  I do limit time, but you can't sit there all the time with somebody and do that. 

That's a really good point.  Everything seems to be this race to the bottom of short time attention, short-term decision-making, can I make this trade, can I make that trade.  So, have you had to learn your own self-discipline with this?

Will Clemente: Yeah, absolutely.  I never read or anything, I did pretty bad in High School and never really paid attention in class.  So, I never had read a book before, a full book, until I got into Bitcoin.  That was a big adjustment for me, but it's weird though; whenever you're interested in what you're doing, it doesn't feel like learning. 

So, this has been the first time in my life where I've been able to read a full book on my own free will and I'm interested in it and I don't want to look at my phone; I want to finish the book, because what I'm reading about is so fascinating to me.  So, yeah, it's been cool.  I think that's the one thing I never really got was reading is fun when you finally find something that you like, and I guess all the books I had been reading my whole life, they were just crappy books.

Peter McCormack: Has that made you reflect on the education system itself?

Will Clemente: Yeah, I personally think it should be more, I don't really know how to word this, more free-structured.  You should be able to pick and choose the classes that you like to take, similar to college.  I told you I'd switched my Major a bunch of times, but the classes that I've taken, aside from just the mandatory undergraduate ones, I've got to pick, I've actually enjoyed.  My two econ classes, I liked those, and I've taken one finance class, but I did enjoy that one. 

I think when you give kids the free reign to choose what they want to put in their brain, then they're way more apt to take their schooling more seriously versus when you're just coming at them and saying, "Hey, you have to learn this" and it's something they couldn't care less about, then obviously their grades probably aren't going to be as good.

Peter McCormack: It's interesting you talk about that free learning.  I've just looked it up, because I know there's this school in Calabasas, it's called the Muse School.  It's run by James Cameron, the film director, his wife and her sister, and that has a pretty free and open schooling program whereby, I might not get it completely right without trying to look it up as I explain it, but I'm pretty sure it's focused on allowing you to pick a topic per semester and that's pretty much what you study, and that can be anything.  You might want to study Italian cooking or you might then want to study the piano, but it's a completely free form of schooling which is unique. 

I'm with you really; this is a school system that was set up in Victorian times to teach people to work in factories and I think we've grown beyond needing to learn facts and memorise facts when we have super computers in our pockets.  I don't completely understand the value of it anymore.  I guess you went through that transition, Dylan, yourself during the college program as well, of rethinking education.

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, totally.  A lot of things you'll study up on something and it will be, "All right, well no phones or no computers, it's memorisation" and you're, "No, I have a phone that I can look at anything in a split second in the real world", if you want to call it that.  It's definitely outdated; information is free.  I love Jeff Booth and his thesis of technological deflation, because I lived it.  I was reading this book while in school, ignoring all my classes like Will and I was, "Wait, why am I paying for this because I'm learning for free right now from this $14 book I just bought?" 

So that's real, information that's out there for free every single day, what Michael Saylor's doing with Saylor Academy, all that stuff.  I don't think college or the school system looks the same in ten years, at least I hope not.  People going six to eight years into debt to "get a good job in the future"; people are just shoved into this and it's unfortunate, because they're putting themselves decades behind in terms of time.

Peter McCormack: So, listen, you've both got newsletters.  Will, tell me a bit about yours.  How long has it been running, what's it about, how many subscribers have you got and why the fuck is it free?

Will Clemente: Yeah, sure, thanks.  A while back, Pomp came to me and he said, "You know, I really find this on-chain stuff interesting.  I think there's a lot of opportunities here".  In a kind of the intro-level way we decided to do something here is just create a newsletter and send it out to as many people as were interested and just promote the thing. 

So, to me, I wanted to make it free, because I think there are some good newsletters out there.  Of course, Willy has a newsletter and Willy's obviously one of the people I really look up to.  But it is $50 a month and so I was approaching it saying, "There's a lot of people that are interested in this stuff but perhaps don't have $50 a month.  So, what if there was some way that they could get access to this information completely free?" and that was where we birthed the idea for the newsletter out of.

So, every week, I just send out a basically short synopsis of everything that I see in the week from an on-chain perspective, and then we also, Pomp and I, do the weekly podcast where it's free and it's just a reiteration of everything in the newsletter.  Yeah, we don't charge for it.  I do run an advertisement over it and it's at the end of it, but that's the trade-off for making it free, because I think there's a lot of talent that has yet to come into the space in terms of the on-chain space.  I think it's just so early. 

Dylan, he doesn't super involve himself in the on chain; I know he looks into it, but I'm sure he'll agree there's stuff now that we didn't even have three months ago, we didn't even have six months ago.  Then when you look back two years, when I first started learning about this, a lot of it was watching these videos with Willy and David Wells and Tone Vays' YouTube channel from 2018, because it's the only content that was available on that stuff back then.  The stuff that they're talking about just seems archaic now. 

So, it's been cool to see this space move so fast and I think getting the information out to as many people as possible is just going to lead to further acceleration in terms of the new metrics and stuff that we have available.

Peter McCormack: Yes, but there is a halfway house.  I think Dan Held does it where he does both the free and the paid newsletter.  I don't know the thing between you and Pomp, but if you're looking for an income stream so you can think about your college, you can quite rapidly build it up through that.  But that's down to you; I'll leave you to it.  Tell people where they can subscribe now, so we can ping some people over to it.

Will Clemente: Yeah, sure.  It's BTCbyWC3.substack.com, or you can just go to my Twitter and just click the link in my bio.

Peter McCormack: So, I want to talk a little bit about on-chain data, because it is something I cover every month with Willy as one of my podcasts, and I know you're covering it with Pomp.  It has had some critics recently.  I've seen some of the technical traders be quite critical of on-chain data.  I talked about this with Willy, because after the big market crash, my YouTube comments were quite crucial towards him. 

My view of on-chain data is it's another tool; it's not a crystal ball, it can give you information.  Sometimes it's right but you can't account for market crashes, coordinated FUD, massive sell-offs based on that, Elon Musk tweeting weird shit.  You can't account for that in on-chain data; you can only just look at the data it's giving you and that's another tool you can use alongside TA and other things.  So, what about you?  Have you noticed the criticism; what's your thoughts on it?

Will Clemente: Yeah, absolutely.  My Twitter notifications have been pretty much just rekt over the last month and a half.  The way I see it is similar to you; on-chain is another tool, like you said, similar to TA or order book analysis, or whatever kind of analysis that you're doing.  But it should be used in unison with other things in my opinion.  You can look at on-chain to get the more broader macro picture of the market, but then you can use order book analysis and TA to get a more precision entry into your trade. 

I think also looking for confluence amongst those things is pretty important.  For example, Willy and I have been watching for this supply squeeze that had been forming and price cap going sideways down and people were calling us crazy, but at the same time this guy that I met on Twitter who goes by the name of John Wick, but he's this options trader and he had been talking about this volatility squeeze.  We were messaging back and forth; we were like, "This is really interesting.  You have this synergy between TA and on chain is lining up here", and then all of a sudden, we had ten straight green daily candles.

So, I think it's a great tool.  I think you could get a lot of signal using solely that tool, but it's best to use with other things and looking for confluence amongst all those different tools that you're using.  Then Willy and I, I think we're both bullish in that $50,000, $60,000 range.  What happened is, you had these outside factors that I don't think on-chain were really taking into account.  Also, I don't think we were thinking about the whole Grayscale thing and we can get into that too, but I think that played a big role in the drawdown to some of these ARBs going away.

But in general, Elon coming out and the China FUD, you couldn't have predicted that with on-chain, but once those events happened, then you did see that get reflected in the fundamentals.  So, I think sometimes on-chain leads price where you have on-chain saying one thing and then it takes a while to get reflected in price.  But then, of course, sometimes price reflects on-chain.  If we nuke or all of a sudden some unexpected outside factor happens, then you're going to see that change in fundamental investor activity that you couldn't have predicted before, because you couldn't have seen that event.

So, it should just be used in discretion.  Like you said, it's not a crystal ball, it's not going to work 100% at the time, but it is highly reliable given that there aren't other outside factors that are occurring.

Peter McCormack: How rekt were your replies?

Will Clemente: My mentions were pretty bad, got a lot of angry messages.  I think just in general whenever the price goes down, people look for those who still aren't as pessimistic as they are, and then they just collectively look to bring those people down and, I guess, drag them down into the same state of mind they are.  But I've never seen anything like that in general, and it's been a good experience for me to thicken up my skin a little, I guess.

Peter McCormack: What about your DMs; did you get your DMs open?

Will Clemente: Yeah, I have my DMs open.  I'll check them once a day and just give it a scroll through, but yeah, there is some nasty stuff in the DMs as well, just, "Oh, you're an idiot" and all this kind of stuff.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, you've got to learn to ignore that.  It can get pretty gruff and brutal out there sometimes.  I think what it is, is I think some people have taken on-chain analysis as a crystal ball, because sometimes some of the things I've discussed with Willy are nailed and correct.  He absolutely nails it; he sets a bottom, that bottom isn't correct.  I think some people have ended up using it as a crystal ball and have probably over-leveraged themselves, taken risks they shouldn't have and potentially got wiped out, like leveraged trading, got rekt and it's not a good experience getting rekt. 

If you're of weak character, you want to lash out and blame somebody, but really every one of those people who is giving you shit really needs to self-reflect and look at themselves, because they're responsible for their own decisions and they still need to be grateful.  I'm glad you're able to deal with that okay and I haven't in the past and it is a brutal experience, and so I'm glad you're okay to deal with that.

I've got another quick question on that and then I want to flip it over to Dylan.  In terms of Willy, I obviously talk to him every month and he's been doing on-chain data for quite some time, do you two have a different style in any way; have you noticed that you've got a different style?

Will Clemente: Yeah, I think obviously I'm heavily influenced by Willy, but I would say that we're similar for the most part, but Willy is a bit more creative than me, I think.  I just take ratios and just like to compare things and just see what sticks.  But I think Willy is a really critical thinker and he takes more of an approach where he'll look at a problem and say, "Oh, I want to understand this better.  What kind of things can I look at?" and then narrow it down that way.  I just go through and compare random stuff and see what sticks. 

So, I take a crash-course more approach to it, where I think Willy's is much more methodical and thought out in the way that he thinks about what he wants to compare and how he wants to filter through the data and stuff.  I think for the most part it's pretty similar.

Peter McCormack: I'm not sure how much you actually trade against your own data you're looking at, but Willy is an experienced, long-term Bitcoin trader, so he is trading against his data, so he's got real skin in the game against that.  You may be doing exactly the same to the same levels, I don't know, but experience is another thing.  I think everybody knows you've been only doing this for some time and I think the work you're doing is great. 

Whenever I go and interview Willy, I look at both of your Twitter feeds and look at the things that you're saying and compare and contrast, and that helps me prepare for my interviews, so I appreciate the way you're doing it.  What about you, Dylan?  How much time have you spent looking at on-chain; what are your thoughts on it?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things.  I love looking at on-chain.  For what I do, I do all the content for Bitcoin Magazine's premium product that they just set up.  It's a pay product but we put together 20 pieces of content a month about on-chain data, derivative markets and then global macro and then put it all together.  There's a couple of things there. 

Firstly, myself personally and basically everybody at Bitcoin Magazine, it's like a maximalist crowd.  We have a ten-year, even longer than that, multi-decade long thesis that Bitcoin is going to be the global reserve currency, it's going to be worth the equivalent of hundreds of trillions of dollars.  For most people, all you have to do is acquire and hold.

But there is a pretty large market demand for maybe not day-to-day so-called trading, but just understanding what's happening in the market and basically the most transparent the world has ever seen, which is why on-chain data, especially the derivate markets all that stuff, is so fascinating, because you can see real-time flows, who's acquiring, who's not, how long a UTXL has been dormant and if it's moved or not, all these sorts of things.  In a probabilistic way, a lot of it can help you make decisions about the market and what to do or whether to de-risk or not.

So, putting all those things together and seeing Will, for instance, and all the on-chain guys for two months, myself included, we're saying, "Hey, there's going to be some sort of supply shock here.  It's happening and everybody in the derivatives market's short", meaning all these guys that are trading perpetual swaps or on Binance are doing this; they're going over the derivatives market and they're shorting. 

Meanwhile, people on spot, people are literally just hoarding UTXOs, they're hoarding coins at a pretty fast pace; something's going to pop.  Nothing happened for a while, we trended at $29,000.  Will and everybody was getting absolutely dumped on, and then what happened?  There was a huge pop.  So, putting all these things together, I think on-chain sometimes lags for a long time, but it's still pretty fascinating just being able to basically look at the capital flows of this asset; it's unlike anything we've seen.

Peter McCormack: That's the thing about this kind of data; people are hungry for it.  It doesn't matter how interesting Bitcoin is and how much you want to teach people about the fundamentals of Bitcoin or what it can do for countries like El Salvador, the facts are the data doesn't lie.  If I look at my show downloads, outside of my interview with Bukele, my second biggest show was a show with Willy Woo and I think two of my top five shows ever have been shows with Willy Woo.  If you go to my top ten, it's more like three or four.  People are absolutely hungry for this information.

There are a lot of people out there who don't really give a fuck about the Bitcoin fundamentals, they just see it as an asset to trade and that's something we have to accept; not everyone is going to buy into it.  But something you said was pretty interesting, Dylan, and I'm going to quote you, "The price does not go up on good news.  Price goes up when the marginal seller has been exhausted".  The marginal seller can be exhausted based on good news though, right?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah.  I think there is some causality there, but a lot of people look at news events or even with the El Salvador announcement, it was , "Oh my God, a country" and it's a small country, 6 million people, $24 billion GDP but it was, "A country has just adopted Bitcoin as legal tender.  Bitcoin's $39,000, are we about to pop?"  And it was, "No, we're about to trend down to $30,000 for the next two and half months".  I think some people were, "What the hell?" but that's Bitcoin

Every day, when you come to understand Bitcoin, the HODL mindset, the sat-stacker mindset, you realise there's a floor of people buying every single day.  I buy every single day regardless of price.  So do probably you two maybe and millions of other people around the world and that number's growing.  On the other side, you have people that are selling or trading or washing it or doing all this stuff, but every single day the amount of Bitcoin that's put away for the next decade, two, three, maybe forever, that's never going to hit the market, goes up.  The free flow gets a little bit smaller.  

So, the marginal seller is often what drives the price and when we're consolidating what we had for the last three months, anybody that's really wanted to sell has sold around here.  So, that's why we see, especially after all-time highs break, you see Bitcoin go parabolic and trade like no other asset on the planet, just because of these supply dynamics that no other asset on the planet has ever seen.

Peter McCormack: You're super right.  It's quite interesting one of the other things that I noticed, I think it was when Elon Musk announced that Tesla were going to accept Bitcoin for the buying of cars, and the price suddenly shot up.  I think within a few hours, it had come back down to the same price.  When I saw that, I realised, "Hold on, why isn't news affecting this?" and sure, we get momentum at points, but I think there's a wider momentum that happens, but like you say, there's a bit of a lag with this. 

What about you, Will?  I know with Willy; I think I spoke to him last time and he said about this.  He said he doesn't ever trade based on news; he only trades based on the data.  I guess you're in a similar position.

Will Clemente: Yeah, for sure.  The way I look at it is over the last two or three months, a lot of the coins that have been sold have all been young coins.  So, like Dylan said, you can look at the UTXOs, separate them by age, by the size of the wallets or entities that are holding those UTXOs.  So, what you've seen is the average age of the UTXOs being moved has been trending down and down and down over the last two to three months. 

So, to me, what that is showing is basically newbs in the market.  We are not seeing selling from these long-term holders or experienced market participants; it's all new market entrants and I suspect a lot of this has to do as well with some of these arbitrage opportunities that popped up at the end of 2020, beginning of this year.  Some of these sellers were people that had come into Bitcoin in this market-neutral way, did not care about Bitcoin as hard money that's going to be the new monetary premium for the whole world; they were just looking at this as a number on a screen and the trade was over, so they move out. 

I think that played a big role in the move down.  Miners are selling, they're force selling from a hash migration.  I think that played some role, but at least in the data that I look at, it didn't play as big of a role as some people had stated, because according to Glassnode, the miners sold a little over 5,000 coins in mid-May to mid-June.  That's not anything that was going to really affect the market. 

I just think it was new hedge funds that had gotten in recently and you saw this huge uptake in new whales in December/January, that timeframe, which aligns with some of these ARB opportunities popping up.  And then also, then you look at when the number of whales started tending down, that also correlates with some of these ARB opportunities going away.  I suspect that played a huge role, but at the same time, you have these long-term buyers, these people with conviction that are just coming in and they keep stacking; they don't really care about the price. 

So, you look at these smaller wallets, I know Willy's talked about this on your show before, but when you look at these smaller wallets, they've been hockey-sticking upwards in terms of their holdings over the last month or two.  I've actually created a ratio, taking all of retail's holdings, so any entity on the blockchain with less than 10 BTC, and then you're comparing that to the overall supply and circulation. 

When you plot that out over time, what you see is that retail holds a larger and larger portion of supply.  Then at the same time, when you take whales and you do the same thing and you filter out the purpose ETF, you filter out Grayscale, you filter out exchanges, because all these entities are recognised as whales on-chain, so you have to filter those out; what you see is that over time, whales are distributing their coins. 

So, you have this dichotomy where retail is steadily buying over time increasingly more so, whales are distributing their coins and so to me, what that shows is just really healthy network growth.  In the recent last two months, it's been interesting to see retail actually outpacing the buying of whales.  So, every single cohort has been buying, which is first of all, as a side thing, it's like unlike anything you've ever seen going back in Bitcoin's history; literally every single cohort is buying right now when you filter out for those ETFs and stuff.  But at the same time, retail's been buying at a greater pace than whales have and I think they have outpaced them as of last week, the last time I looked, by 25,000 or 30,000 BTC. 

People really don't give as much credit to the little guys and you also aren't considering the fact that a lot of retail, they keep their coins on exchanges.  So, some of these entities that I'm looking at, they could be custody solutions or also, when we're talking about coins moving onto exchanges, if we were somehow able to look into these custody providers or just the exchanges in general and see how many retail participants held however many coins on those platforms, I suspect the number of UTXOs held by these small guys is way higher than what we see right now. 

But over time, you do see that positive trend of distribution where, yeah, people still talk about Bitcoin being highly concentrated, and to an extent, that's kind of true; but Bitcoin's only 12 years old, and to see this natural distribution progression over time I think is really good.

Peter McCormack: Do we know if, on exchanges, that customers are actually buying UTXOs or are they buying a number on their spreadsheet and they're only given a UTXO when they withdraw?

Will Clemente: That's what I think it is.  I think exchanges have an SQL database and they'll shop all around UTXOs when need be, but for the most part I don't think that coins are moving on-chain unless they need be.  That's how Bitcoin sells; that's okay.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and that is fine and also it just saves on misallocation of sats for allocating UTXOs for each person.  There's a really interesting point though there, because Willy made the same point to me; he said, "Retail drives bull markets".  I was, "No, surely that's not.  Surely it's Tesla and maybe if Apple came in".  Actually, he came to prove that thesis was right, especially in the last show we did. 

I think what it is, it's a bit like you say; you've got these hedge funds, they've made an investment that might be $1 million, $10 million, $100 million and they've suddenly seen whatever, maybe a 3X, a 5X, an 8X.  They've delivered for their fund; why do they need to take any risk further?  It makes total sense for them to withdraw their Bitcoin.  I think, is it Ruffer's, the gold people, I think they bought and they sold a bit and, no, I think they sold everything.  So, I think they've delivered, I think you're right.  I think that growth in retail is super interesting as well. 

One of the things I wanted to ask you then, Dylan, is that the price doesn't go up on news, but you're a bit of an expert in macro analysis.  We talked before about inflation rising and bond yields with Greg, we talked about equities having these crazy valuations.  Do you think that is just the narrative which is feeding into retail which is making them interested in Bitcoin?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah.  I think there's just net worth to go.  Especially for me, I evaluated the landscape of where to allocate assets to preserve purchasing power, to grow purchasing power and the reality is, okay, every bond on the planet essentially, especially if you don't use bogus CPI metrics, is giving you a real yield.  I'm not going to buy treasury bonds, okay, check. 

For equities, the price of any equity, and Will talked about this a little bit earlier, but there's discount cashflow models.  If the cost of capital is zero or negative, the fair price of an equity's infinity, so you see equities just absolutely ripping.  It's like PE ratios on every equity, especially so-called growth stocks.  Apple can borrow for no cost, negative cost.  So, what's the price of Apple, what's the price of all these stocks?  They're good companies, they're great companies, but not a great price. 

So, I think Bitcoin is a fix for a broken cost of capital, a manipulated cost of capital; but before, if there was no Bitcoin, in the 1940s, and Lyn Alden talks about this a lot, they basically kept bond yields below inflation for the entire decade, but they confiscated gold.  So, you really had no choice; you had nowhere to run, you had to hold bond yields and you got screwed or you could allocate to equities.  But that was basically it.  Or you could buy real estate, but it's essentially all the same trade. 

So, with Bitcoin it's, yeah, you can use financial repression, you can keep bond yields low, you can try to inflate the debt away, but ultimately I have an escape valve.  So, I think more and more people realise that Bitcoin is the escape valve that nobody can mess with and financial repression, yield curve control, all this stuff, the greatest monetary experiment ever across the world, all global central banks, they're all doing the same thing, Bitcoin's that escape valve.  So, it's still a drop in the bucket; $700 billion is tiny, but just 1% of flows from global equities or bond markets and Bitcoin's going 2X or 3X.

Peter McCormack: Has this macro analysis become like your own rabbit hole, because you speak so fluently on what's actually happening?  When you do it, you're coming across with a passion for your understanding of it, not a passion for the reality.  You obviously understand this financial oppression as you said, but has that become a different rabbit hole for you?

Dylan LeClair: 100%, yeah.  That's how I stumbled upon Bitcoin.  I was interested in finance and economics and all that and I just learned about Bitcoin or crypto or whatever at the same exact time.  I put the puzzle pieces together at the same time, in March 2020 especially.  I was buying Bitcoin before that but I wasn't fully orange pilled. 

Then equity markets tanked by 35% in a month and the treasury market went no bid and everybody was running around on fire, and Bitcoin went down 50% in a day.  Then the Fed came out and said, "We're buying corporate debt, we're going to stuff $2 trillion into the bond market in a month and we're going QE infinity until said otherwise".  I was, "Okay, wait.  There's no alternative.  Bitcoin, that's it". 

For all these other reasons that we've talked about, 21 million hard cap supply, no one can mess with it, it's hard money in the digital age.  Traditionally, it's pretty sad to say, and I said this last time, if Bitcoin didn't exist I'd be buying gold coins.  It sounds depressing as hell, but that's just the reality of where we are in the current macro environment; you need to find hard assets, because anywhere else and you're going to get screwed. 

So, yeah, I definitely have some sort of passion for macro and Bitcoin as the answer from the financial ends, because that's just another way that I orange pill people.  For the person that doesn't know anything about macro I'm, "Hey, yeah, it's money that they can't print".  But for someone in finance, it's, "Hey man, what are you going to do?  Buy equities at 250% of GDP or buy bonds when global debt to GDP is 400%?  Good luck, have fun".  So, yeah.

Peter McCormack: I'm going to quote you again as well, because it's relevant to the conversation I had recently with Lyn Alden.  We reviewed Taleb's paper and one of the parts we talked about was whether Bitcoin is an inflation hedge.  Whilst it's been a narrative piece I've echoed and said, "Yeah, Bitcoin is a hedge against inflation", I did have some doubts in my mind because it depends on the timescale. 

Bitcoin might not necessarily be a hedge in inflation over a short period in time; it's not a hedge against inflation if you bought in three months ago and you had to sell, it has to be done in certain timeframes.  I'm just going to quote you here.  You said, "It's important to remember that Bitcoin at this stage, in this adoption phase, is not a hedge against inflation but rather perpetual credit expansion" so, it's echoing what you just said there.

But can you just go a little bit more into detail on this perpetual credit expansion, but explain it in a way like someone like myself, who just doesn't understand this, can understand it and what it means and what the threat here is?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, so you'll see a lot of people, depending on the price action of Bitcoin, if it's going up, id it's going down, if it's March at 2020 when Bitcoin tanks with everything else and they say, "Ha ha, Bitcoin's not a hedge against the financial system.  See, it went down during the biggest liquidity crisis ever", and so it's either not an inflation hedge or it doesn't work against deflation and all this stuff.  But I think that's taking a microscopic view of things. 

In my opinion, and I have been hitting this point home a lot recently, I think that Bitcoin over the medium to long term is a hedge both against inflation in terms of credit expansion, and deflation which is credit contraction, for two reasons, or many reason.  But credit expansion, we can think of that as QE or basically in a fiat currency system, money is created through lending.  So, a commercial bank, and there's deposits at a commercial bank, they extend a loan, they fractionally reserve those deposits and they extend out a loan and in that process, money is created; the money supply increases.  The bank now has an asset and the other person has a liability in cash and the money supply increased in that sense. 

So ultimately, and this is the long-term debt cycle stuff we talked about last time, there's an end to the upswing of a credit cycle boom and that's a bust.  So, Bitcoin is a hedge against credit expansion in the sense that your wealth can't be diluted away.  If you're holding a bond, if you're holding a bond today, a 30-year treasury bond that's yielding 1% interest or whatever it is, you're going to get paid back most likely.  It's going to be money good, but what does that money buy you?  That's where Bitcoin comes in, in the sense that it's a hedge against inflation in the sense that you can't be deluded.  If the bond market goes no bid again, the Fed's going to step in and they're going to print probably $10 trillion next time.  Yeah, you got paid back, but what is that worth?

In another sense, in a deflationary scenario and a true deflationary scenario, say in March 2020 if they didn't step in, what would have happened?  Well, all of the banks would have gone bust, the equity markets would have drawn down 90%, the biggest everything bubble ever would have gone round.  In that sense, there's immense counterparty risk everywhere in the financial system.  If you have money in the banks, you're probably not going to get them back, brokerages will probably fail.  This sounds like a Domesday scenario, but that's what deflation is.  In the 1930s, it was the gold that you deposited at the bank; yeah, it's someone else's, because there is a bunch of claims.

So, in that deflationary scenario, Bitcoin is also what you want to hold, because yeah, it might draw down in dollar terms, in nominal dollar terms because the money supply's contracting, but you have an asset that you can hold and nobody can dilute and it has a production cost.  It has a production cost that won't go away.  The worst-case scenario is miners unplug and there's a difficulty adjustment and they plug back in. 

So, both Domesday scenarios of inflation or, God forbid, hyperinflation or deflationary collapse, Bitcoin is this pristine asset that doesn't really care and will keep on chugging along.  I think not a lot of people understand that and if you're looking at week-to-week correlations, you can get confused.

Peter McCormack: Will, do you spend much time looking at the macro stuff and talking to Dylan about it?  Does it influence you in any way, or are you just totally plugged into the on-chain data?

Will Clemente: Yeah, I was into it when I first got into Bitcoin.  I wrote a couple of articles on Bitcoin's role in the macros, that whole picture.  I like Ray Dalio's work, I've read Ray Dalio's Big Debt Crisis.  I think that's another book that Dylan will probably say is great for anybody trying to understand the stuff.  Yeah, I just as of lately haven't paid as much attention to it as I used to, because I am so hyper focused in my little world, but I go to Dylan for that. 

So, I'll call Dylan up and just, "Yo, what's going on, man?" and he'll give me the spiel and he'll ramble for 20 minutes and then I'll ramble about my stuff for 20 minutes; that's usually how it goes.  I lean on Dylan a little more for that lately, but it's definitely something that I used to look into a lot.

Peter McCormack: It's all fascinating data.  For someone like myself, the combination of the two really helped me.  The kind of things that Dylan's talking about, really they just support my conviction in holding Bitcoin and holding the majority of my wealth in Bitcoin.  But certainly the on-chain data sometimes give me some reassurance about what's happening with the market when it's tanking, but also some confidence about the future. 

Another topic I wanted to touch with both of you on, I'm going to defer first really to Dylan because I think this might be in your bag.  Dylan, this Infrastructure Bill, how much have you looked at it; obviously working at Bitcoin Magazine, I imagine quite a bit?

Dylan LeClair: Yeah.  I've seen the proposals and all that.  Not ideal, but ultimately it's more short-term inconvenience if it passes or if the amendment isn't passed.  It's pretty vague, so I think the worry is that lightning nodes, miners for other crypto in general, not Bitcoin, but DEXs and all this stuff, altcoins are definitely far more at risk. 

But yeah, I think ultimately it just wouldn't be ideal and it would probably drive away innovation; but at the same time, I'm going to stay around my node, not going to bow down to tyrannical rules and I'm not saying that it is, per se, but the Bitcoin Network will chug along and you can't stop an idea whose time has come.

So, onerous regulations will happen; it's 100%, it's a certainty, it's going to happen globally.  You're going to have more people, nations that are like China, that are, "Hey, get out.  We don't want you".  At the same time, we're going to have countries, but also states like Texas, maybe Florida, other jurisdictions that are saying, "No, we want you, we want Bitcoin, we want innovation.  Come here".  So, it's not ideal, but hopefully it gets changed and regardless, cypherpunks write code.  We're just going to build around it and ultimately, what some bureaucrats write or sign on a bill doesn't matter.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Texas and Florida.  I had a conversation, two conversations yesterday actually, one specifically with Parker Lewis saying that actually Bitcoin is a very Texan idea, I talked to Dan Held about it, or almost a republican idea in that really this expansion of the credit, the money printer, that's going to really affect people, especially if we see much higher levels of inflation. 

Politicians are there to protect, look after their constituents; they're meant to be there to support the voters.  It always feels like the republican states do that a bit more at an individual level rather than collectively.  So, if there are high signs of inflation coming in and people want to use Bitcoin as that hedge, it does feel like the republican states are the ones to naturally fight back and say, "No, we're going to be supporting Bitcoin because this is what our constituents are asking for".

Dylan LeClair: Parker Lewis had an excellent tweet I think it was yesterday or today, maybe.  It was, "Liberals will love Bitcoin when they realise what it means for low-income families; democrats will hate it.  Conservatives will love Bitcoin when they realise what it means for balancing the budget; republicans will hate it".  It's so true. 

The parasites on the system, I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but you can probably name a few, they hate Bitcoin and they're going to hate Bitcoin if they haven't realised what it means.  Like Brad Sherman for instance, two years ago he was beating the drum.  He was, "We need to ban Bitcoin, it's a threat to the dollar and our reserve currency status".  Half the people were, "Look, at this old crank".  But Brad Sherman's right, it is a threat and Michael Saylor has been, "No, no, it's not a threat.  Don't worry, guys".  Michael Saylor is a smart guy; he knows what he's doing obviously. 

But I think there is some merit to downplaying it, but at the same time there's just this reality that Bitcoin is a threat to dollar hegemony.  Bitcoin is a threat to what Congress has been doing for the last 50 years and there's certain people that will throw everything they've got at stopping it.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, Saylor's interesting at the moment.  It's a real tricky one, because he's walking this fine line between wanting to be a bitcoiner and supporting the cyber hornets, as he keeps referring to, while at the same time trying to diver that threat of regulation; or, in some ways signalling that he supports a certain amount of regulation if it feels like let's put a sticking plaster over this, let's buy ourselves more time. 

I'm finding it hard to actually deal with at the moment.  On a personal level I'm, "We're having someone with a very high profile controlling 1 in 200 Bitcoin publicly playing a game of chess with regulators".  So, I'm not convinced how healthy it is actually, because I wonder if that control of that much Bitcoin has put him in a position where he's having to walk this fine line between it and maybe it becomes unhealthy, because the views and thoughts that are coming out sometimes feel a little bit like they're contradicting themselves at times.

Dylan LeClair: Yeah, he's definitely in a tough spot.  I think whether he meant that or not, he's the face of this or at least to some people, or he's one of the biggest faces.  So, his words have a lot of weight, but ultimately he's just another node on the network and some people may think that's a wild understatement, but that's the truth.  The regulatory landscape, all this stuff, Bitcoin's going to keep chugging along and short-term weeks, months, years even, a lot of this stuff seems crazy, or this regulation it so burdensome, but Bitcoin's died and come back plenty of times; and I'm not saying it's going to die, but it's here to stay and any regulation, people are just going to route around it. 

Look at the war on drugs.  Bitcoin's information, how do you stop it?  I can run a node routed on Tor and if you make privacy a criminal act, well guess what?  The only people that are going to have privacy are criminals.  If you make Bitcoin criminal, then criminals are going to use Bitcoin, they're not going to be able to do anything about it.  So, I think regulations and the state and all that stuff, we don't have to worry about it and some people are, "Don't call your senator.  That's against the ethos of Bitcoin".  I don't think that's true.  I mean, call your senator, but at the same time if your senator votes against it, too bad because I'm going to use Bitcoin.

Peter McCormack: Let's talk a little bit about the future.  Will, I'm always asking and pushing Willy for his predictions, where it tops out, how he thinks the rest of the year is going to play out.  Is it just going to be a traditional bull run where we're going to see a squeeze towards the end of it; are we going to see a supply squeeze and see that end the bull market, 4X or 5X?  What are your feelings on it?  I'm not going to hold you to this, I know you've only been looking at this data for a short period of time, but I'm still interested in your views on it.

Will Clemente: I think as far as trying to make a prediction for the end of cycle, I think that's really difficult to do.  I think you can only really get a grasp of perhaps what's going to go on over the next couple of weeks to maybe a month or two based on the data that you have currently.  But based on Bitcoin's historical performance, we do have some modelling around how we can predict Bitcoin's theoretical price peak.  Willy has his top model right now.  I tracked it this morning actually; it's showing $176,000 was the on-chain price ceiling, while delta price, which has served historically as Bitcoin's price floor, that's right around $14,000, so that's quite the range in there! 

I think over the next couple of weeks to maybe a month or two, based off some of these accumulation trends we talked about earlier, I suspect we're going to see higher prices than we are now short term.  We're still technically in this range.  We could come back down and maybe retest the middle of the range around $35,000, $36,000.  But over the next couple of weeks or so, I suspect we're going to start to see some of these aspects of the supply shock that we've been talking about start to get priced in.

Peter McCormack: So you think we're most likely going to be heading back up?

Will Clemente: Yeah, I think the big thing is when we start going up, what I'll be looking for is, is this a dead cat bounce or is this bull run continuation, which obviously I lean on the latter; but if we started to go up and then all of a sudden you saw these long-term holders who have been buying, if you started to see them dump, basically looking for some exit liquidity and trying to sell the dead cat bounce, to me that would be a really bad sign.  So, we'll have to see once we theoretically get this price move out of this range from $42,000.  It's pretty much just air between $42,000 and $49,000, but we'll have to see in that range once we get up towards $49,000, which I think we will. 

Do those long-term holders just start taking that as liquidity and do they just start dumping their holdings then; or, are they expecting higher prices and are they continuing to hold?  But I lean on the latter just because of how strong they've been accumulating recently; unprecedented buying from these long-term holders over the last couple of months which, granted, some of that is short-term holders aging into that long-term holder cohort.  

Glassnode uses a five-month cut-off, so some of that is UTXOs that were bought on 5 March and those are just now starting to age into that long-term cohort.  But in general, aligning that with some of the other accumulation trends we've seen, I think the vast majority of that is actually buying from these long-term holders.  That's what I would be watching to see.

Peter McCormack: Awesome, man.  Dylan, what about you?  What are you working on; what are you looking at; what's your next article?

Dylan LeClair: Just dropped a monthly report for July.  It's talking a lot about what we talked about today, accumulation.  There's the big trend and then stuff happening underneath with the derivative markets; it whips on the price around. 

For me, I follow a lot of the on-chain stuff and I don't think it'll happen this year or even next or whatnot, but I think over the 2020s, the on-chain metrics will not break down, but the models all break the upside if the trust is lost in the system.  If the legacy market cracks and they all have to turn up the lever again, then Bitcoin's going to moon in dollar terms, because that marginal seller's, "Wait, I don't need to sell.  I don't want to sell.  This is the only thing I want to own". 

So, I don't know what the top is of the cycle, I have no clue.  I think we'll break all-time highs this year in 2020 or 2021, but if not, then great I'll continue to stack.  But definitely bullish from here and through the rest of 2022, I think the cycle is not going to top at December like a lot of the previous models or cycles had, just because of this three-month pull back consolidation.  If we were at $100,000 right now, it would be still bullish and we'd still be at some sort of blow-off top in December, but that's not where we are.  So, I think a longer bull run's in store, I hope at least.

Peter McCormack: Awesome.  Well, listen, it's been great to get you both on.  You give me a lot of faith in the future that we can hand the baton on to a smart next round of people.  I think you're both doing excellent work and I really enjoy both of your coverage.  I think, Dylan, your written work's excellent.  Will, you've been crushing it with your podcasts with Pomp, but also with your tweets.  I think you're both doing a great job, so I appreciate everything you're doing. 

Dylan, we didn't talk about yours.  What's your newsletter?  How do people subscribe to that?

Dylan LeClair: It's called The Deep Dive.  You can just go to Bitcoin Magazine and you'll see it in the top right.  It is pay, but you can just give it a try for a month using the codes "BITS".  If not, if you don't find value in it, that's cool I totally understand.  But that's what I've been doing and I think the content's worthwhile, so I appreciate you having me on, Peter; this was awesome.  Nice chatting with you as always, Will.  I'm sure I'll be talking to you later today.

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, you were on recently and it was really great feedback, loved it.  So, more than happy to have you back on.  Will, it's nice to meet you.  It's good to have you on as well.  I do wish you all the best working on the number two Bitcoin podcast, I think that's a really great gig and I do think Pomp needs to get you a microphone!  I'll drop him a text later and tell that tight fucker to get some money and buy you a new mic. 

Look, just keep doing your thing.  I'll pump your newsletter in the show notes, but I think both of them are excellent and everyone should subscribe to them.

Dylan LeClair: Appreciate it, man.

Will Clemente: Thanks for having me.