WBD367 Audio Transcription

Bitcoin Rehab: Straight Toxic with CJ Wilson & American HODL

Interview date: Friday 2nd July

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with CJ Wilson & American HODL. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, I talk to American HODL & MLB all-star and sports car racer CJ Wilson. We discuss CJs sports career, racing fast cars and the role of toxic bitcoin maximalism.

“Hero worship leads to disappointment, broken hearts, and posters being torn off the wall...everybody is subjected to the same rules on the internet.”

— CJ Wilson

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: How are you doing?

American HODL: What's up, man?

Peter McCormack: What's up, dude, how are you doing?

CJ Wilson: What's up, dude?

American HODL: I see you've entered the geopolitical sphere; was this part of MI6's plan for you the entire time?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, well that's the thing.  People are like, "Oh, you've done so well, you're crushing it, I can't believe you've got an interview with the President".  I was like, "I'm a fucking spook; how do you think I got the interview?  Are you fucking stupid?"  Dude, that was wild.

American HODL: Yeah, how was that, man?

Peter McCormack: Do you want to know the truth of it all?

American HODL: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Okay, I'll tell you two stories.  Firstly, as soon as he did the Spaces and it became public, I kind of joked, "I've got to get the first interview".  You want to have the first one, so I just reached out to the brother and I was basically harassing him saying, "Come on, give me the interview" and he was like, "Yeah, come on.  If you come to El Salvador, you can have the interview; I can't tell you what day".  So, I had to let my ex-wife know that I was going to be up to a week late, and finally got it. 

But I asked for a meeting first, because I didn't want to just cold interview the guy.  I was like, I knew I had to meet him first.  So, I got the meeting and it was really funny, because you get there and there's all these soldiers lining the corridor and as you walk down, their eyes follow you down the room.  But there was about an hour wait before the meeting started, he was just late, and I think I probably went for a piss five times, because I was so nervous about it.  I was thinking, these soldiers kept looking at me going back and forth.  I bet they were thinking, "You fucking moron".

Then we got the interview.  But the problem with the interview is, you know I've got this bad back?

American HODL: I mean I guess, yeah, do you?

Peter McCormack: Well, I thought you did.  CJ knew.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, I read your Twitter, so that's where I saw it.

American HODL: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: Well, fuck you then!

American HODL: Sorry, Peter, I don't remember every intimate detail of your life, but yes.

Peter McCormack: I've been bitching about my back for about a year.  Anyway, my back's fucked, but it's manageable.  So, I wake up on the morning, I'm in a lot of pain, I'm like, "I'm going to get a coffee"; I can't sit down.  I try and sit down and the sciatica is just agony down my leg.  So, I texted Michael Peterson and I was like, "Have you got any drugs I can take; I've got this problem?"  So, he turns up like Walter White with everything and I ended up taking a Tramadol and a muscle relaxant, and that worked; I was able to sit down and I was like, "Okay, we can do this".

So, we pack our shit up.  Me and Jamie jump in the taxi up to San Salvador, but I have to lay on the back seat because I can't sit down.  Then we get there and I take them again as we go to the interview, and then the brother comes.  He's like, "Can I get you anything?"  I was like, "Can you get me a whiskey?"  He's like, "Yeah, sure".  So, he gets me a whiskey, just so I can calm down, and I was fine; I wasn't too nervous during the interview.

But about 40 minutes in, I start feeling a bit queasy and I was like, "Oh, shit, I think I feel a bit sick".  And then it started going through my head, I was like, "What would happen if I just vomited right now, on camera, in front of the President?"  And then I was like, "When now, I'm going to fucking puke, because I'm thinking about this.  Right, I'm going to puke" and all I could think was, "Puke, puke, puke".

So, I ended up saying, "Look, can I have a five-minute break?" and I had to just go to the toilet and calm myself down.  I don't know what it was; I think I was just overwhelmed.

American HODL: Was that when you had to check back in with the CIA; was that what it was?

Peter McCormack: That's right.  I had to go, "Are my questions okay?"

CJ Wilson: The battery was out on the wire, so you had to go swap that.

American HODL: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so that was that.  But it was wild, man, it was just so overwhelming.

American HODL: So, how are they planning to infiltrate El Salvador, Peter?

Peter McCormack: Well, I think they're leaving it over to our brothers in the CIA for this.  MI6 were just providing intel.

American HODL: You know what I want to know?  You were there right after the big announcement and everything; what was the energy like on the ground and how did it feel and just, what was the sense you got from being there?

Peter McCormack: Well, no, I was there a few days afterwards.  I went down to El Zonte and everyone was just kind of cool; everyone was just, "This is amazing; this is all the work we've put in; it's great".  Then fucking Brock Pierce and his shitcoin entourage turn up.

CJ Wilson: Really legitimising all the effort from Jack Mallers and everybody else over the last couple of years.

Peter McCormack: Do you know what; they're fucking wankers.  So, he turned up at this really nice hotel in El Zonte, and I got a couple of invites from different people at the thing to come along and I was like, "I'm going to go".  So, I turn up and it feels like one of those dinners that maybe Maduro has behind doors while the Venezuelans are starving and they're drinking and enjoying themselves.  There's this guy playing the saxophone and I was like, "What is this bollocks?"  Everyone who's come down to El Zonte has come to spend time in the community and get to know it, and they've come down for this shindig.

So anyway, Brock comes over to me and Jamie and I'm like, "You all right, Brock?"  He was like, "Yeah".  I was like, "This is pretty cool.  What are you doing here?"  He was like, "Oh, I just want to help the people of El Salvador".  I was like, "Cool.  So, how long are you staying here in Zonte?"  He was like, "Oh, I'm not".  I was like, "Oh, you're only here for the meal?"  He said, "Yeah", I was like, "So, are you going to go and see any of the vendors?"  He was like, "No".  I was like, "Oh, okay, so you're not going to see the ATM?"  He was like, "No".  I was like, "So, you're not going to spend any time with anyone in the local community and get to know what this project's about and what they're doing?" and he was like, "No".

I was like, "Fuck off", but I didn't say it to him, but I was just thinking, "Fuck off, mate".  There's people that have been coming here for two years and you come here with your fucking shitcoin delegation, claim that you're this official thing; it was just kind of gross, dude, it was just gross.

American HODL: Well, conversely, me and CJ have a mutual friend, Colin, who went down post-announcement and he brought some cell phones that were pre-loaded with Bitcoin and he brought toys for the kids and he was really trying to help impact the locals' lives, I think.  That's more of the story I've heard from most real bitcoiners who aren't there for self-promotion purposes, or whatever.

There was a real energy after the Miami Conference that people just wanted to go down and be a part of it and see how they could help and not Anglicise the entire thing, but just fit into the community down there in El Salvador and see how they could help make El Salvador more prosperous using Bitcoin, which I think was obviously fucking awesome.

It's just crazy, man, that this is where we're at.  We're at geopolitical phase 5 Bitcoin adoption.  I was ruminating on it the other day and was just thinking, if you would have told me this in 2015, I would have believed you; but the fact that it's happened six years later, that's fucking insane.  It's insane that this is where we're at.

CJ Wilson: It's funny that you bring up the Anglicising thing, because I think that's one of the deals that is sort of lost when you see the locals actually participating with Lightning Network and stuff, that they're looking to self-sustain and invite people down as a tourist destination so that we spend money and increase the economy. 

But if you see a W Hotel going in there, you know what I mean; that really doesn't do the same thing as having the people that actually live there, that are actually at the beach, seeing it lift up from within, which is what I think all of us want for the people of El Salvador.  We want to see that kind of come out of the ground and be a grassroots thing and not be this sort of white people airdrop or, "Here you go, people".  I'm really interested in that.

Peter McCormack: It's going to happen.  There's a bunch of people with Bitcoin who've got money who are going to think, "Do you know what; I can live here, it's no capital gains tax, it's cheap to live, I can buy a bit of land and build a property on the beach with a pool for under $500,000 and it's an amazing lifestyle"; that's certainly going to happen.  I just hope that the way the money comes in from these people, it helps raise everyone up, right; that's what I hope.

American HODL: Yeah, well more doing the thing our friend, Colin, did and less doing the Brock Pierce thing, where you come in fresh off your cocaine party in Miami, you fly down in your private jet, you look fancy at the meeting.  What?  That's just a rumour; I don't know if that's true or not.  It's not like I was there, I'm just saying!

Peter McCormack: You're going to get me in trouble!  Well, the thing is, I've been and I know a lot of other people have been and every single person they reach out, they're like, "Where should I stay?  How do I visit Bitcoin Beach?  What is there to do?"  Every single person I know has gone down there, spent time in the community and got a feel for what it is.  By the way, this hotel's great.  The guy who runs it is awesome and he's a bitcoiner.  I'm literally not holding it against him.  It's the only place that could host a night like that.

But to just come down for your photo opportunity, and I know I'm a hypocrite, because I like photo opportunities; but to come down for your photo opportunity and then just put up on Twitter that, "We're the delegation"; it's a fake photo opportunity.  And just to do that and not go and check out the project and make it all about you, it's just gross, it's just bollocks.

But look, the thing is, everyone saw right through it; everyone did.  He tried to defend himself and it's just like, "Dude, read the room, just read the comments; just read the fucking comments".

CJ Wilson: Defending yourself in this culture right now is extremely hard, because it's so easy to pierce that veil of, I would say, fakeness or falseness or false pretences.  So, if you're not authentic, it's so easy to sniff that out and it's been happening; and I think the bitcoiners are more and more incentivised than ever to call each other out even, you know, obviously, and call other noncoiners out, or whatever, the second that they step out of line.  It's like, "No, that's not correct".  And I think that's essential.  There are a lot of people that are sort of having this toxic backlash, or backlash against toxicity but it's --

Peter McCormack: You can say "Breedlove"!

CJ Wilson: I'm not specifically getting into that; I think there's a better way to specify that.  But I've seen a lot of people say that the toxicity thing's bad because obviously, HODL is a self-proclaimed toxic maximalist, but we talk about this a lot.

Peter McCormack: King of the plebs.

CJ Wilson: King of the plebs.  But it's like, if you're seeking out fame as a part of this, that's not going to work.  That's the real thing that just isn't going to work in this type of movement, because it is more about the community than it is about one person. 

Peter McCormack: We should probably introduce our guest.  Some people might not know who this superstar is!

American HODL: I was going to say, we have an actual famous person here and we're talking about you for the first ten minutes of the show?  Jesus Christ, you really are a spook, man.  I just want to bring up that reference as many times as possible.

Peter McCormack: Racing car driver --

American HODL: You've just got to pound that narrative, don't you, Peter?  No, I'm just kidding.

Peter McCormack: Dude, I'm all right with it.

CJ Wilson: Should I put a helmet on so it's like I'm more in the mode right there?

Peter McCormack: Well, listen, I didn't know about the racing car thing.  You might have told me in Miami, but I was drunk; but I knew you played American cricket and I'm quite interested in that.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, stick ball.  I was a really good stick ball thrower back in the day.

American HODL: Did you just call it American cricket?

Peter McCormack: You call it fucking American football; you can kiss my arse!

American HODL: Okay, no, it is football, because there's one guy who kicks it, so that's football.  I don't make the rules, think about it.

Peter McCormack: Dude, we had football before you came up with your weird rugby and called it football, American football.  It's American cricket, it's less civilised.

CJ Wilson: Absolutely less civilised.

Peter McCormack: You're actually the only people who've invented a game more boring than cricket.

American HODL: Which is what; baseball?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

American HODL: Wait, baseball's not more boring than cricket; are you kidding me?

Peter McCormack: It definitely is.

American HODL: They wear shin guards.

CJ Wilson: They crash into each other in baseball; you can take people out and slide into them and knock them out.  It's awesome; It's pretty cool!  You hit a home run and you flip the bat, you know; to me, that's pretty cool.

Peter McCormack: Well, that's just not very civilised; it just isn't!

American HODL: One of us is wearing a Yankee hat, which is a baseball team, and the rest of us are not wearing Yankee hats!

Peter McCormack: Well, my kids bought me this for Father's Day; I'm not even a Yankees fan.  I guess I'm a Dodgers fan.  Dude, I've been to nine baseball games and I've seen one good thing which was, I went to a playoff game where -- I told you this; Justin Turner hit a walk-off home run in a playoff game and that was wild.  That was like four years ago, against the Cubs, I think?

CJ Wilson: Probably; 2017.

Peter McCormack: No, I'm just ripping on you, man; I like baseball.

American HODL: I mean, you've got to go with what's going on where you grow up.  You can't move somewhere else and say, "I just want to be a Formula 1 driver", or something.  The kids are playing soccer, or footie, or whatever you guys call it, then that's what you've got to do.

Peter McCormack: What is it like making it as a sports guy?

CJ Wilson: It's actually a lot slower process than you think it is, because even if you get drafted and you get all this money as a kid, you still have to go up the ladder.  So, with baseball, there are six layers.  You have to go through the minor leagues and there are different layers in the minor leagues.  And every time you lose up, you're losing people, losing friends; they're getting fired; they're going back to work in Target in the off-season and you have to kind of work your way up.

But I had a whole bunch of injuries and stuff growing up, so I never took it for granted, and I think that was what kept me a little bit more grounded.  That being said, the longer it took me to make the money, the more ready I was to spend it.  I was such a hard guy, I thought, "As soon as I get money, I'm getting a cool car!"

Peter McCormack: Love that, yeah, my world!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that was always the motivator for me, was to get a cool car.  I never really cared about a house so much, because until you have a wife and kids and stuff, you don't need it.  So, I actually had roommates until I was about 30 years old.  But then, I had a Carrera GT when I was 28.  So, imagine having a Carrera GT supercar and then roommates; it's like a weird dichotomy there, eating Del Taco.

American HODL: Was it Aaron Rodgers had a roommate for a long time, didn't he, and then there were all these rumours that he was gay because of it?  I don't know why I remember that!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, I think it's weird though that a lot of guys, they spend their money and they get a crib and they get all this stuff and it's like this thing and it's treated as competition, and they make themselves targets, you know, and I think that's a big thing, especially the NBA guys, because they're so easy to pick out.  They're 6 foot 8, they don't like anybody else in the room; so, when they walk into a restaurant in Beverley Hills, it's just like, "Oh, that guy plays for the Lakers". 

But as a regular-sized white guy, 6 foot 1, just strolling in somewhere, I could have been anonymous; it didn't matter how much money I made, or whatever, unless I was in cities like New York.

American HODL: When did you get into Bitcoin; what year did you get into Bitcoin?

Peter McCormack: We can come back to that, come on; don't be a fucking nerd!

American HODL: I'm curious, man.

Peter McCormack: You fucking geek!  Let's do sports stuff.  You've got a proper Wikipedia page; that's how I know you're famous.  People who are on the cusp tend to have that one paragraph, but you've got a Wikipedia page with sections.

American HODL: CJ was a fucking All Star, dude; he played in a league for ten years.

CJ Wilson: Most importantly than all that All Stars or any of that other stuff is, I had my own designed shoe and my own glove, so you could go to the store and get the CJ Wilson baseball glove; that was bad ass!

Peter McCormack: Holy shit, you're straight edge!

CJ Wilson: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: Are you into straight edge hardcore?

CJ Wilson: I used to be as a kid, but not so much anymore.

Peter McCormack: Like Earth Crisis?

CJ Wilson: Absolutely.  That was my walkout song in 2009, or something like that.

Peter McCormack: What, Firestorm?  Tell me it's Firestorm?

CJ Wilson: Firestorm, yeah!

Peter McCormack: Oh, my God!

American HODL: Yeah, you can see that.

Peter McCormack: Oh my God!  Is that on YouTube?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that's on YouTube, me walking out to Earth Crisis.  But a lot of my friends were musicians growing up.  One of the guys that was in my wedding party was Dave Havok from AFI; he's a straight edge guy.  So, I met CM Punk, the wrestler guy, because he's straight edge; and H2O, they're straight edge; so I knew all those guys.  So, it's a very interesting community.

Peter McCormack: That's mad.  I can't believe I didn't know that.

CJ Wilson: That's why my Twitter handle is @st8edgeracer, because I like racing and I'm straight edge, not because I'm a baseball dude.

Peter McCormack: It just didn't cross my mind.  So, I was totally into the straight edge hardcore, but I couldn't not drink; I like drinking and drugs and smoking and sex!  But I liked straight edge hardcore.

American HODL: But you were a drug addict though!

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but that was later in life; this is as a kid. 

CJ Wilson: That's why I was straight edge, because I had a couple of family members have some serious alcohol problems, drug problems; one of my uncles actually, I never got to meet him, because he was single car accident DUI death.

Peter McCormack: Oh, shit.

CJ Wilson: So, it was like for me, I wanted to be a baseball player, get the Ferrari Testarossa.  This was circa 1989/1990.  I wanted a the Testarossa like Don Johnson and I knew I had to be a baseball player to do it, because I wasn't going to be a doctor and cut people open; I was not into that shit.  So, that was it.  So, I saw all these people making life mistakes and I was like, "Well, I can't turn out like that; I need to go past that".

The straight edge thing I found when I was maybe a teenager, but by the time I was 12, then I was pretty much straight edge.  I've got "straight edge" tattooed on my ribs right here.

Peter McCormack: I can't believe your walkout song was Firestorm.  I was about 15 and I went to Slam City Skates in London and we used to get the CDs and I was like, "You got any hardcore?" and this guy was like, "Oh, I've got this one track you've got to hear" and he brings me out the EP of Firestorm.  I was like, "What the fuck is this?"

CJ Wilson: It's really hard, yeah.

Peter McCormack: That song, do you know what, it's got that "Street by street, block by block".  I'm like, "Yeah, block by block, that's a Bitcoin song!"

CJ Wilson: Absolutely.  I still listen to that when I work out!

Peter McCormack: Dude, I've got a hardcore compilation on Spotify and that's in there.  I've got a bit of Snapcase; I bet you're into Snapcase?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, Snapcase.  Do you ever listen to Throwdown?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, of course, man.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, so I knew a lot of those guys.  A lot of those guys were all in the Orange County kind of hardcore scene growing up.

Peter McCormack: Hold on, so you must have been into Ignite then?

CJ Wilson: Absolutely!

Peter McCormack: How did they get away with that, because they were like a hardcore band, but they weren't really a hardcore band?

CJ Wilson: Did you ever listen to Offspring's first album?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

CJ Wilson: Ignition?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

CJ Wilson: So, they kind of went towards -- that was sort of more their thing, it was more fast, punk music as opposed to hardcore, you know.  But, when I was a kid, I played guitar, I listened to Rage Against the Machine and Metallica and all that sort of stuff.  I was super metalhead as a kid, so that's what I was always into.

Peter McCormack: I've got a funny Ignite story.  So, my dad, when he was 62, I got him tickets to go and see Bruce Springstein at the Arsenal stadium.  So, we go to this concert and we're up in the seats and the acoustics in their new stadium wasn't great and also, my dad's a smoker and I could just tell he wasn't enjoying it and he was smoking, wanted to have a cigarette.  I was looking at him going, "Are you enjoying this?"  He was like, "Yeah, yeah" and I knew he wasn't.  I was like, "You're not, are you?"  I was like, "Look, if you want, there's a punk", I called it punk, so he understood; I said, "There's this punk band playing over in Camden, do you want to go and see it?" and he was like, "Yeah, yeah, let's go".  And I know he only agreed because he wanted to have a cigarette.

So anyway, we get down to Camden and we get to the venue and it's a bit like American Vacation, you know, when they turn up and Walley World's closed; it was like that.  So, I turn up, I was like, "Two tickets", and they went, "Sold out".  I was like, "Oh, for fuck's sake".  And then there was this big dude covered in tattoos and I was like, "Are you part of the crew?" and he was like, "Yeah, I'm the road manager".  I was like, "Look, mate, do me a favour, because my dad is 62, last chance he'll ever get to see Ignite, he loves the band; can we get in?" and he took us in.

So, they were halfway through the set, so he got the second half of their set at Camden Underworld and he loved it!

CJ Wilson: That's wild.  Ignite's great, I really like their music.  Just the way the music sounds is great.  Yeah, I remember the last really good fight I got in was at a Killswitch Engage concert, 2010 or something like that, 2011.

Peter McCormack: Who was singing?

CJ Wilson: Howard was still singing, I believe.

Peter McCormack: He's brilliant.  I saw Howard, a thing with him at Brixton.  HODL's got no fucking idea what we're talking about!

American HODL: Zero, zero.

Peter McCormack: It's okay.  Three people listening will know what we're talking about.

American HODL: I knew the CM Punk reference and Dave Havok from AFI; that's it; that's as far as I got into the scene.

Peter McCormack: Dude, you need to listen to Earth Crisis!

American HODL: I'm going to check it out after this.

CJ Wilson: It will get you super toxic!

Peter McCormack: Yeah.  Firestorm will.  Do you know, I never got to see them live; I've never got to see them live.

CJ Wilson: No, never saw them.

Peter McCormack: Oh, man.  They did their final show --

CJ Wilson: The whole scene in SoCal was really big; it was a thing.  Kids used to go to school with Xs on their hands and stuff like that.

American HODL: I remember that.

CJ Wilson: I mean, this was early 1990s, mid 1990s.  I graduated High School in 1998, so by that point, I think it wasn't as big of a deal; it wasn't trendy anymore and a lot of kids had already sold out and stuff.  But I was always into it.  We had a kid overdose in 7th grade, so I was like --

Peter McCormack: Fuck!

CJ Wilson: -- that dude's not making the big league's; he's going to die.  So, I was pretty illogical about all this stuff.  But for me, it was always about giving myself the most chances to be successful and I didn't see a path as any other alternative.

Peter McCormack: So, one thing I didn't realise with baseball when I went, lucky I was with a guy who was explaining it all to me, I didn't realise there are multiple pitchers and then you have to rotate because of the arm, and they get tired, and stuff like that.  But there's usually the main guy and then the backup guys.  Are there also levels you have to work through that, or once you've got in a team, were you the main guy straightaway?

CJ Wilson: No, I mean when I first came up, I was a relief pitcher, so I would pitch to get one or two guys out in the middle of the game.  I'm a left-handed pitcher, so it was like, "Oh, this leftie, you've got to go get him out", specialised in that.  But, my first batter that I ever faced was in Miami actually and I came in to pitch and there was a runner on 2nd base.  So, two outs, I had this crazy long at-bat with this guy named Jeff Conine. 

He gets a hit and then the right fielder comes and picks it up and throws the guy out at home.  So, the guy got a hit, but nobody scored because they got the out at home, and that was the third out of the innings, so that was it.  So then I was like, "Okay, I did good, I guess?"  It's kind of weird, like a really auspicious debut.

Then the next day, I pitched against this guy named Carlos Delgado, who'd hit 40 home runs, which was a big number for baseball a bunch of years in a row, with the Blue Jays.  And he was one of Puerto Rico's most famous baseball players at the time.  So, I ended up striking him out the next day and that was, for me, the real, "I made it", kind of thing, where I had the confidence that I knew I was going to be able to stick.

Then, I actually got sent back down to the minors and back up and forth, probably six times that first year and that was emotionally a little bit difficult for a pretty volatile situation.  I had some funky stuff going on health-wise or whatever; I had elbow surgery, so my nerves weren't working.  I couldn't feel these two fingers.  So, the reason I retired is that's as much as I can bend my elbow.

Peter McCormack: Holy shit.

CJ Wilson: As opposed to this.  And that's as straight as it goes.  So, if this makes sense, that's as straight as my arm goes.

American HODL: Oh, man.

CJ Wilson: See that difference?

American HODL: It looks weird with the fisheye camera, but yeah.

Peter McCormack: It makes me think of that guy in Moneyball, where he wanted that pitcher even though his arm was done, because he could make base or something?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, he wanted Juan Rincón for some reason, or Chad Bradford, the sidearm guy, yeah. 

Peter McCormack: So, one more question and I'll let HODL start grilling you on Bitcoin.  If you're a pitcher, do you have to bat as well?

CJ Wilson: You only bat in the national league, but in college, I was a centre fielder, so I batted all the time.  I wanted to bat; I wanted to bat more often and our coaches were always like, "We got guys that do that", whatever.  So, my first chance I got to bat was ten years after college in spring training and I hit a double in my second at bat.  I come in and I scored and all the Dominican guys were like, "Oh, it's that easy, huh?  Okay!" and it was really funny. 

But I was a good hitter in college and I played with a lot of guys where I would play centre field and they'd play left field, or third base, or whatever, and they made the major leagues.  They were like, "Dude, why don't they let you hit anymore?" and I was like, "I don't know", but I got a couple of hits.  My first hit in the majors in a real game was a triple, actually, I hit a triple in Houston.  That's also on YouTube; you can check that out. 

That's probably a career highlight of mine, because my buddy told me, if I hit a home run that game, he was going to streak naked onto the field.  So, I was like, "Oh, fuck, I need to really try to hit a home run", because he actually has a tattoo on his butt that says, "Fuck, yeah", like one on each cheek; and so, that one has been the most Getty Images photo of this dude with his butt sticking out and a security guard tackling him.  That would have been a great baseball card for the second baseman with the streaker running by! 

So, that is probably my favourite part of baseball, when someone tries to run onto the field and the security guards just obliterate him; it's great!

Peter McCormack: So, I've searched for you on YouTube and I've got "CJ Wilson, baseball, Earth Crisis", and it's got, "TURF MONSTER", it's got a bit of you racing; and then I've got, "10 Actors Who Turned Into Monsters" and then, "Unusual People Who Took Plastic Surgery Too Far"!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that's definitely not me!  If you go, let's see; if you go, "CJ Wilson Hits Triple", then that's there; there's that there.

Peter McCormack: I want the Earth Crisis one. 

American HODL: You might have to tag, "Walkout" to get his walkout music.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, "CJ Wilson enters the game for Texas" and I think they might have some of that.  But I used Iron Man, was a song one time; I did Smashing Pumpkins' Zero, because as a pitcher, you're trying to put up a zero.  I also tried reverse psychology where I came into the game and I played a song by a group called Chromeo.  It's an Israeli guy and a Palestinian guy that are a funk duo from Montreal, and to try and get everybody happy; because it's so fucking hot in Texas, dude. 

In 2009, I was just making stuff up, but I actually helped the team a lot with different marketing ideas.  We did a Reno 911! spoof actually one year as well.

American HODL: I miss that show so much.

Peter McCormack: Who's Ron Washington?

CJ Wilson: Ron Washington was my manager who got busted for doing cocaine.  So, him and I did not see eye to eye.

Peter McCormack: Was he with Brock Pierce?!

CJ Wilson: No!  So, he had a spring training meeting; this is amazing.  So, in spring training, there's like 80 players on the team before they start making cuts and he walks out of the office and Nolan Ryan's with him.  And I think, HODL, I think I told you this story in Miami; I'm not sure if I did or not.  But Nolan Ryan is this legend.  He's one of the top pitchers of all time and he worked for the team at the time. 

So, they walk out of the office, Ron goes, "Well, men, I'm here to tell you, sometimes you don't make mistakes.  I know some of y'all ain't perfect.  I'm here to tell you I ain't perfect either.  I had a low point last year and I did some cocaine".  We're all like, "What the…!  What did he just say?!"  This guy's 60 years old doing blow, like what is going on?!

Peter McCormack: That heart's going to not last long!

American HODL: That's what you should do, you know!

CJ Wilson: Yeah.  So we're like, "Oh my God, it makes so much sense.  Last year in the 7th inning against the White Sox, he did this thing and he must have been high; there's no way he would have done that logically".  So, him and I didn't get along when I was relief pitcher, because I felt like he was constantly mismanaging me.

So, the highlight thing that's on YouTube is, I had blown out my elbow; my elbow was completely non-functioning and they made me pitch anyway, and I was like, "Fuck you guys, this is stupid.  I should be on the disabled list.  I literally can't bend my arm", because I want to get this taken out.  They would take bone chips and bone spurs out of my arm every couple of years.  So, I've had five arm surgeries, so I knew that I need that.  They were like, "Oh, tough it out!"  I was like, "Fuck you, guys".

So, they put me in the game, I pitch like shit; I did hit A-Rod though, for you, HODL; I hit him.  So then, he comes out to get me, I'm like, "Was that the result you looked for?" and I flipped him the ball and he was like, "No, you've got to give me the ball like a man", and I'm like, "Yeah, fucking whatever, dude".  So, after that, I was like, "I need to be starting pitcher, because I can't be subjected to this guy, because he doesn't know how to manage a team", and it was just like a bad relationship; people tend to go with the opposite of what they just had.

So, we had a super smart, kind of Napoleon-complex guy show up who was like a strategy guy.  And then they were like, "Wait, we fired him; let's get Ron Washington that's never managed ever, never been an actual manager, just been a coach".  I mean, he's from Moneyball; he's the guy who's like, "It's going to be the hardest thing you ever did, Scott.  We're going to get you to play first base".  That's Ron Washington, but in real life he would say stuff like, he played Dominoes before the game with Gary Pettis, the first-base coach.  He'd be, "Y'all can't beat me; I'm the mother-fucking Dominologist"!

Peter McCormack: The Dominologist?!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, he would say shit like that, so we would get together and we were like, "We have to be winning by five runs by the 5th inning, because otherwise Simple Ron is going to blow it.  We called him Simple Ron.

Peter McCormack: Fuck you, Ron!

American HODL: CJ's so good at impressions, by the way.  Before the end of the show, we have to get him to do Bitcoin TINA and we have to get him to do NVK, because he has a great one of both of those guys!

Peter McCormack: Well, I've got four listed here.  I've got NVK, Bill Clinton, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Peter McCormack.

CJ Wilson: I said I might be able to do you by the end of the show, but I didn't say I've had it dialled though!

Peter McCormack: I want to hear NVK; definitely want to hear NVK.

American HODL: Oh, the NVK one is so good.

CJ Wilson: It only works if I'm actually holding a Coldcard, or something.  So, let me see if I have something on me.

American HODL: You've got to channel him.  I'll ask you some questions and you can respond as NVK.

CJ Wilson: You can't see this on Clubhouse, but I've got to take it in.  Let me just take it in.  Okay, go for it.

American HODL: Yeah, so what are some of your favourite kinds of cuts of meat; I know you're a carnivore, so what are your favourite cuts that you like, NVK?

CJ Wilson (as NVK): Okay, HODL, you know, the thing is about the meats, you have to have -- you have to cut it right, okay.  So like, a picanha, if you cut it one way, if you spear it, that's cool; but if you cut it like a steak, you've got to go across the grain.  But you know, the Coldcard, it has a $5 wrench attack.  But now, the $5 wrench, because of CPI being fucking bullshit, that's more like $7 wrench attack.  But, you know, just use your fucking judgement, man.  I don't know, if rib eyes look and they don't look gross, get the rib eyes, especially if you're cooking outdoors, it's the rib eye.

American HODL: It's so good!

Peter McCormack: Do you know what we should do?  We should just record him saying that Trezor is actually better than Coldcard and Coldcard's got security faults.

CJ Wilson: Oh my God, no, I can't do that, because I use the Coldcard.  No, I can't do that, no.

American HODL: Dude, CJ has done this on Clubhouse and people have come in the room thinking that NVK was speaking.  It's so funny!

CJ Wilson: The best thing is when him and I were actually on the board, like him and I together next to each other, and him and I were both talking with his voice.  People were like, "Who said that; who was it?"!

Peter McCormack: That's fucking brilliant!

CJ Wilson: So, he calls me NVKcash, as a joke, which I love.

American HODL: That's so good!

CJ Wilson: I was actually on the phone with TINA the other day, or whatever, and we were talking about inflation and stuff like that and it was just a private Clubhouse room, because it was some sort of Twitter exchange, and he was like, "Hey, let's get in Clubhouse together".  So then, my wife walks in and she's like, "Wait, I've heard you doing this guy's voice before.  What the hell; it's a real person!"  Yeah, it's a real person!  It's totally great, until it's not great.

American HODL: Oh my God!

Peter McCormack: Come here, come and say hello.

American HODL: Who's that?  Is it Peter's kid?

Peter McCormack: This is Scarlett.  Say hello.

American HODL: Hi, Scarlett.

Scarlett: Hi.

American HODL: Howdy.

Peter McCormack: This guy plays American cricket.

Scarlett: Who?

Peter McCormack: CJ Wilson.  He's a famous sports star.

CJ Wilson: That's how you throw in cricket, HODL.

American HODL: That weird overhand thing, yeah.

CJ Wilson: You can't straighten your arm.  When you get to here, you have to straighten your arm, but I can't straighten my arm, so it's really hard.

Peter McCormack: We went to see The Angels play.

CJ Wilson: Wait, what year?

Peter McCormack: Hold on, Angels, where are they based; are they in Arizona?

CJ Wilson: Well, for spring training, but The Angels are in Anaheim.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we've been to Anaheim.  Wait, how old are you?  It was, I want to say eight years ago, seven; six or seven years ago.  I'll dig it out; we were there.

CJ Wilson: I was on the team from 2012 until 2016.

Peter McCormack: Oh, no, we were definitely there when you were playing, because we got big foam fingers.

Scarlett: Oh, yeah, the blue ones.

Peter McCormack: The blue ones, didn't we, and we were like -- yeah, we were definitely there, so we probably saw you play.

CJ Wilson: There you go.  I was the one in the stretchy pants, you know, whatever!

Peter McCormack: We probably saw you play.  All right, come on, I need to hear the TINA thing.

CJ Wilson: The TINA thing, I need a prop though.  One day, he lit up Phil.

Peter McCormack: I'll call you in.

American HODL: Okay, go on.

Peter McCormack: So, I just can't get into the Bitcoin thing, because Bitcoin Cash to me is still the real Bitcoin, because --

CJ Wilson (as Bitcoin TINA): Bitcoin Cash is a shitcoin, all right?  I'm not even going to let you finish on this one.  It's not even important that you finish.  Your thought is nothing, okay?  If you haven't heard Ross Stevens or if you haven't read Parker Lewis, Gradually, Then Suddenly, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, okay, frankly.  And, you're just going to ruin it for everybody.  The more people you talk to, the worse it's going to get!

American HODL: That's solid!

CJ Wilson: The key is interruption; the key is interrupting people before they --

American HODL: And you have to say, "Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me!"

CJ Wilson (as Bitcoin TINA): "I let you talk, now you let me talk!"

American HODL: "I'm talking", yeah!

Peter McCormack: Do you know what you should do; you should do an argument between TINA and NVK!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, I've done that.  So, I do a podcast, a car podcast, called Throttle Dogs, and I actually play characters on that; and I have done that.  But it's very hard with the video.  You have to be in a very weird mind state to get into that point, but I've tried it; it's very hard.

Peter McCormack: So, can you do me, because HODL does one of me and it's fucking terrible.  It's like a standard British accent.

American HODL (as Peter McCormack): Excuse me, CIA, it's me, Peter McCormack.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that's terrible; that's actually terrible!

Peter McCormack: I can do an impression of you doing an impression of me.

CJ Wilson: "I can do an impression of you doing an impression of me"?

Peter McCormack: "Hello, Guvnor, I'm Peter McCormack, I'm from England.  I'm from Bedford and I'm a spook", that's literally --

American HODL (as Peter McCormack): Peter McCormack just calling the CIA for my weekly debriefing, that's how you sound!

CJ Wilson: Wait, okay, so give me something to say and I can repeat it; how about that?  Just say, "I went to El Salvador".

Peter McCormack: No, no, because you can do the intro for the show and I'll use it. 

CJ Wilson: Oh, okay.

Peter McCormack: Say, "Hello from Bedford, the Bitcoin capital of the world.  My name's Peter McCormack.  Welcome to the What Bitcoin Did podcast".

CJ Wilson (as Peter McCormack): Hello from Bedford, the Bitcoin capital of the world.  This is Peter McCormack.  Welcome to the What Bitcoin Did podcast.

Peter McCormack: It's no TINA.

American HODL: We need work.

CJ Wilson: It's my first attempt.

American HODL: We're going to get there by the end of the pod; I feel confident.

Peter McCormack: What are your other ones; what other ones do you do?

American HODL: Let's do Bill Clinton. 

CJ Wilson: George Bush by George Bush is better, by the way.

Peter McCormack: George Bush is better?  Senior or junior?

CJ Wilson (as George Bush): Junior.  "Bitcoin, it's like money, but digital.  And, it's a combination of fractional technologies and amazing mathematics.  And, if you mathematicise your fantasies, you can put it together and help the whole world.  Bitcoin, I love it".  George Bush.

American HODL: Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, can't get fooled again.

CJ Wilson: Well, the funny thing is, so I've got a photo, I'll find it for you, of me in the White House with a mohawk with George Bush.

American HODL: Really?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, I'll find it.  I've got it somewhere, because he used to be owner of The Rangers before he became Governor of Texas.

American HODL: Oh, yeah, that's right; he was part-owner.  That's right.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, so he's always been a Rangers fan.  So, we went to the White House, because we played the nationals in DC; they invited us.  So, we went to go and see him.  And we were a bad team; it's not like we were good.  We didn't win the World Series, or something like that.  But we all got one 30-second, 60-second block with him, and he's like 5'9, 5'10, a little bit shorter than I am; I'm 6'1.  But with a mohawk, obviously, he's like, "Wow, where are you from, son?  I'm like, "California".  He goes, "Wow, sure does look like it.  Hey, let's take a picture".  I'll literally never forget that!

Peter McCormack: Did you take a shit at the White House?

CJ Wilson: No, I did not.  I probably got a chance to let one loose in the hallway, but I don't think I actually made any deposits!

American HODL: That would be my move.  You reach The Oval and then you go, "Oh, I need to take a shit", and then you just see where you're escorted to.  It's got to be the presidential bathroom, right?

Peter McCormack: Dude, I would eat all the way up.  I would be packing it in, ready for a…

American HODL: Yeah, because you've got to make it real, because if you lie, Secret Service is going to catch you on that, and that's probably a felony, you know; think about it.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, you're on government property at that point.

American HODL: It's got to be a real shit, yeah; got to be a real shit.

Peter McCormack: Government property.

CJ Wilson: That would be a cool place to play, though, as a team, you know, to play in DC, because in the summertime, Washington DC's really beautiful, and there's all these spies running around, all of Peter's friends are jogging around in their T-shirts, or whatever the hell they've got to try to look like…  I mean, literally, you can go for a walk in what they call The Gallery, or whatever it is, where all the buildings are, and it's like a Jason Bourne movie.  You see all these super clean cut, navy-looking people, jogging and I'm like, "That guy's a fucking spy; that guy's a spy".

Peter McCormack: It's not jogging though.

American HODL: Jog on, mate!

Peter McCormack: If you want to be a spook, you have to be able to master that run, which is a slow-motion fast run, because you see people jogging.

American HODL: It's like 7.25 miles an hour.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, that's how you run as a spook; it's not a jog.

American HODL: Knees up, you've got to get the knees up.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, and you've just got to remember you'll always running next to a car, and feel like you're running next to a car.  That's how you do it.  The problem with DC as a player is one of the things I -- I'm not going to talk about this; what the fuck am I on about?

American HODL: No wait, that's spook stuff.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, we're way too close to home on that one!

American HODL: What were you about to say; was it something spook-related?

Peter McCormack: I got a tap on the shoulder; I'll talk about it later.

American HODL: I got it; got it.

CJ Wilson: Wait, what, you did? 

American HODL: You got the text message, you get the red alert.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I got the text, "Beep beep, beep beep".

CJ Wilson: From who?

American HODL: You've got to say it now, because the plebs are going to have a field day with the fact that you just said what you just said.

Peter McCormack: Good, I'm going to leave it like that.

CJ Wilson: Okay, Peter, I've got a question for you, because you're such a big cricket fan.  One of the big scandals right now in baseball is that the guys are getting in trouble for doctoring the ball, for using artificial surfaces and stuff.  So, is there anything like that in other sports?  I mean, do people have like a sticky boot in soccer, so they can bend it better on corner kicks?

Peter McCormack: No, none of that shit in football.  But in cricket, it's a problem in cricket and there are two things they do.  When they're bowling, I don't know if you've seen in cricket, but they always shine one side of the ball; they rub it on their white --

CJ Wilson: Yeah, because you can make it swing.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, you can make it swing.  So, what they do, there are a couple of things they might do.  Sometimes, they leave a sweet wrapper, like a toffee sweet wrapper, in their pocket and rub it on one side to make one side sticky.  Or, people have been caught with sandpaper in their belt line and they're just rubbing it on there to rough it up.  But, the fucking idiots, they always get caught and I'm always like, in my head, "You're fucking cheating". 

How shit is it to get caught cheating, you fucking lowlife.  You're well paid, you're a sports star and you're fucking cheating.  I've got no time for it, honestly; it pisses me off.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, I mean the thing is, it's been so permissible, because they put rosin on the mount, the pitchers.  So, when you're sweaty, you have this ability to grip the ball a little bit; a little bit sweaty.  But if you're too sweaty, because you're profusely drenched in sweat, it's Texas, it's 110 degrees outside, then you literally have to do what I did, which is I used to put rosin on my entire uniform, so just to have hopefully one dry spot. 

That's also why I wore a loose jersey most of the time, so I could have a dry spot to dry my hands off, because there's no towel out there.  So, if your hands are slippery, then you could hit somebody in the face, which happened a couple of times, sadly, for those guys.

But the thing is now, they've made this new scientific shit, which is ceramic, and you can spin the ball crazy off your fingers and they can hear it coming off guys' hands now, which is way too far, obviously.

Peter McCormack: HODL, have you seen this thing up here, by the way?

American HODL: No, what the fuck is that; I can't tell?

CJ Wilson: It's a shrunken head?

Peter McCormack: I'll see if it will work on the camera.

American HODL: Oh, it's my Employee of the Month badge?

Peter McCormack: Yeah.

American HODL: Peter, did you listen to the debate I had with Dieter Bob who, by the way, he says hi; he hopes you get nut cancer.

Peter McCormack: Is that the one where you're on Spaces and I came in afterwards, and then Stoney was unintelligible bullshit?

American HODL: Oh, yeah, I forgot you were part of that shit.

Peter McCormack: He's like, what's the thing?

CJ Wilson: Animal from the Muppets?

Peter McCormack: No, he's like Chewy, you know!  Fucking unintelligible bullshit.  I mean, the thing about Dieter is, I mean, I don't want to talk about these people all the time; but the thing about him is, he just makes stuff up, puts it out there and sees what happens!

American HODL: Hey, it's an effective strategy.  You just start making up stuff about people and see what -- something's going to stick, you know!

Peter McCormack: Right, we should talk about Bitcoin a bit.  HODL, I interrupted you about 30 minutes ago.

American HODL: No, no.  You know what's interesting?  So, me and CJ are Clubhouse buddies and we were hanging out in Miami and shit and then, one of the things I thought was really interesting about CJ is that he just always has been a super low time preference individual.  When he was 12 years old, he'll tell you the story, but he was visualising major league baseball success and then he manifested that for himself, manifested his whole fucking life. 

I think it's interesting that that kind of person, post-career, when you have this mountain of money, because CJ obviously earned a lot of money; you can google his net worth, or whatever, he did well while he was playing; you've got a melting ice cube, just like Saylor talks about, and you've got to figure out how to protect that.  I think it's very interesting that that kind of individual, and not only just CJ, but a lot of guys I could talk to, Sean Culkin down in Miami, or Russell Okung; all these guys have figured out Bitcoin is the best way to protect my wealth and to ensure future prosperity for myself and my family, and I think it's really interesting, the connection between pro sports and Bitcoin. 

Whereas there's not as much of a connection between, let's say, entertainment and Bitcoin.  I think it's the sports guys; a little more realistic, a little more motivated, a little more low time preference, they're used to doing hard things, they don't mind volatility.  CJ was talking about volatility from the minors to the majors; all that kind of stuff.  So, I think just exploring the psychological connection there is really interesting to me.

Peter McCormack: We'll do that.  CJ, is your net worth page accurate?

CJ Wilson: Probably not, because I did get ripped off a couple of times by employees.  I had to sue a guy over some stuff, so I wouldn't say it's totally accurate.  But I know what I made playing baseball and if that shows what my salary earnings were, that's true; but that's also before taxes.

Peter McCormack: So, HODL, I've got my first net worth page; someone created a net worth page for me.

American HODL: What do they think you're worth?

Peter McCormack: Well firstly, they've got a picture of me at the top.

CJ Wilson: In a Metallica shirt, or not a Metallica shirt?

Peter McCormack: No, on a motorbike in El Salvador.   It says, "The mild-mannered British investor has thoroughly experienced the wild highs…", and it's got a picture of me with the car.  Then it says I claimed my net worth was $150,000!

CJ Wilson: Sounds right!

Peter McCormack: And then, hold on.

CJ Wilson: I hope your net worth's not $150,000, because your car cost $150,000, so I hope you have a little more than that!

Peter McCormack: They haven't given me a net worth on here.  So, at the time -- they've updated it.  At the time, they had $5 million, which it definitely wasn't that.  But they also listed a whole bunch of stuff that wasn't even me, like all these shares I owned in companies, so they obviously confused me with somebody else.  Oh, that's a shame, that was quite funny.

American HODL: Well, didn't you say you had $5 million at the top in 2017 before you fucked it all up?

Peter McCormack: No, it was like $1.2 million.

American HODL: Oh, okay.

CJ Wilson: I don't know, I've never googled what my net worth is, because I know what my net worth is.

Peter McCormack: It says $35 million here, but what's $5 million or $10 million between friends; who cares?

CJ Wilson: That's probably somewhat accurate realistically, just because of the value of the business that I own now.

American HODL: He has a Porsche dealership.

Peter McCormack: Nice!

CJ Wilson: Yeah, Porsche, Audi, BMW.  But, HODL, back to your thing.  If you don't experience pain, you don't know what the real world is, and athletes experience pain.  Whereas I think entertainers, they don't.  They experience depression, or something that's not really tangible; they experience emotional down days, but they don't necessarily have a broken back or torn elbow, or something like that.  You know, break a leg doesn't really happen in Hollywood, right?

So, these people that are campaigning for people to like them on TikTok or watch their TV shows or buy their albums, they don't really have the same types of, I would say stakes, as a football player that could blow his knee out and not walk right for the rest of his life, or a baseball player that gets hit in the head with a line drive.

So for me, the reality checks there have always kept me very grounded in regards to, it doesn't matter what I do today; tomorrow, I have to wake up back at work.  If you pitch a perfect game, you've got to get ready to pitch in five more days.  Your season's not over just because you had one amazing game.  I think that's the thing for a lot of people, especially in the entertainment industry.  They're like, "Yeah, but I was in this one movie", and it's like, "Yeah, that was ten fucking years ago.  Nobody cares anymore.  It's great that you were in this movie, but make another one", you know what I mean, "Write a better song, come on".

But I think that's the reason why baseball players or football players, or any other athlete really, sees that, because they know at some point they lose their skill, they lose the ability to do that.  And they want to keep that lifestyle, greedily.  We always want to have a cool lifestyle, drive a Lambo, whatever, go on safari trips and go and see the lions and stuff, as a motivating factor, and take care of your family and stuff like that.  But for me, it was like, I was always sceptical of government intervention in terms of the finance world.  So, in 2008/2009, I was a super gold bug.  That was really my first foray into scepticism on the finance side, and so I was trading gold, buying pounds, buying euros.  So, I'd always been playing the macro game as an investor.

I'd heard about Bitcoin, but it was really more in association with the Silk Road aspect of things.  So for me, as a straight edge guy, now we're talking about that, I was like, "I can't do this drug money shit.  I can't get involved with that; it's too weird", so that FUD hit me hard and I didn't have any Bitcoin buddies at the time that kind of talked me out of it.  So, I was looking at it, but it was, "Aargh".  So, that was 2014.

So, 2017, it goes up and I'm like, "This is not going to end well".  It crashes and I was like, "Ha-ha!" and then it didn't go to zero.  So, I was very interested at that point, because I was like, "How is it that it can drop from $20,000 to $3,000 and people still want to buy it?  What is it about Bitcoin that's so special?" and then I started doing some more independent research and I was like, "Okay, I need to get into this and this is actually a good opportunity right now, because it's way far down from where it should be". 

If you look at the bottom of the chart, as a long-term hodler if you look at the bottom of the chart and see what it's done, what the lows are every year, it's a higher low every year; and that, to me, was more attractive because then it's like, "I don't even have to work at this, because I have all these other things to do.  I have to run a business; I can't sit there and day trade all day".  Well, I did last year, but that was kind of stupid.

Peter McCormack: What's the 992 like to drive?

CJ Wilson: The 992 S has the same approximate mechanical grip level as a 2016 GT3 RS, because of the tyre profile and the width and the steering.  So actually, I was blown away, because when we first drove it, it was on the track and the mechanical grip and how the rear steering works now and stuff like that, it's as good as the RS cars used to be.

Peter McCormack: Have you had a 4S then?  Have they done a 4S; yeah, they have, haven't they?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, 4S, Turbo S.  The GT3s are coming out now in Europe; they're about to come out around Halloween in America, so that's our strongest thing right now, is we have people just throwing money at us like, "Please take my deposit, I want a 992 GT3".

Peter McCormack: Is there a GT2, because in the 991, I preferred the GT2?

CJ Wilson: The GT2 was one of the most psycho cars that Porsche has ever made; it was unbelievable.  We sold about eight of those through the dealership, which was pretty lucrative for us.

Peter McCormack: They're one of those few cars that goes up in price.

American HODL: I used to love the GT2 so much, man.

CJ Wilson: The wing; it's the big wing.

American HODL: Yeah, the big wing.

Peter McCormack: But the one they did, it was the grey with the kind of dark grey bonnet.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, carbon bonnet, yeah.  The GT2 is rear-wheel drive.  It's like holding a loaded gun, you know; it's definitely a tool, but you have to know how to use it, otherwise you could end up losing a foot.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think my Aston's rear-wheel drive, because I had the 996 4S and I fucking loved it.

CJ Wilson: Beautiful car.

Peter McCormack: Beautiful car, but you want modern things in your car.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, and the interior of the 996 sucks realistically, but the outside's great; the rear tail lights that go all the way across.  We've actually bought and sold a couple of those.  I play a lot, I speculate in the car market in that regards where I try to find cars that are underappreciated for what they really have in them.  So, the Audi RS4 from 2007/2008; the BMW M3 from 2008 to 2013.  I've been buying a lot of those while they were down, and then riding the play back up.

Peter McCormack: I was so close to having a 992, like so close.

CJ Wilson: I think it comes down to, if you can spec the car out the way you want it, then it really changes the equation; because if you say, "I want to get this special colour that I haven't seen", then you have to get a new car, because you can't really repaint a used car; it devalues the whole thing.  So, we just got a purple one in yesterday, we got a purple C4S in with the stick shift that the guy ordered, wanted.  I like weird colours, so that's what I'm really into.

I have a whole rack of helmets and stuff back here and I'll grab the one on the bottom, but I had a McLaren P1 at one point and this is one of the things that's my biggest regret.  In 2014, I bought a McLaren P1.  If I would have spent a tenth of the money on the P1 on Bitcoin, I'd be, I don't know -- that's the hardest thing, because I was spending money at the time.  It wasn't like I didn't have it; I had it, I was just doing stupid shit with it, YOLO, you know.

American HODL: That sounds like Peter.

Peter McCormack: People always do that shit though.

CJ Wilson: Let me grab this.  I've got to grab this; this is actually kind of a good story.

Peter McCormack: People always say that shit, HODL.

American HODL: I like how you guys are talking about super expensive cars and I literally don't have a car at the moment.  I drive my wife's minivan around.

CJ Wilson: So, see how this colour changes, Peter?

Peter McCormack: Oh, nice, yeah.

CJ Wilson: So, my car was this colour.

Peter McCormack: Nice.  That's a proper boy racer colour.

CJ Wilson: Yeah.  So, they made this custom for me.  In the sunlight, it turns orange.  You can't really see it here.  It's very wild.

Peter McCormack: What cars did you race?

CJ Wilson: I raced everything to Formula 3; LMP3 cars, GT3 cups, GT4, Porsche, Audi TCR.  I got to drive the Porsche 919 hybrid, the Le Mans car.  It was me and Patrick Dempsey and Michael Fassbender and they let us drive it at this track in Spain.  It was literally the best day of my life behind the wheel.  I've got a very charmed life in terms of experiences, which is why I can totally be a pleb now, because I've done everything; I just want to go to work and stack Bitcoin.  I'm kind of done chasing experiences.  I can't do any better than I've done.

I flew an F16, I drove the LMP1 hybrid Porsche car, so I'm just like, "All right, well let me drink some root beer and some espresso and stack sats all day".  That's really all that matters now.

Peter McCormack: That's a charmed life.  You know what, I fucking loved the Indy 500; that was wild.

CJ Wilson: Yeah.  Well, I want to get hold of Jack, because the next thing that Bitcoin needs to get involved in is the Dakar Rally.  So, that's a 14-day desert rally, lots of ups and downs, lots of sand, lots of not giving a shit, lots of just going for it.

Peter McCormack: Are you going to race it?

CJ Wilson: Well, one of my buddies runs a team and he was like, "Hey, man, do you know anybody who wants to sponsor a car team?" and I was like, "It depends on how much it is".  He told me the number and I was like, "I need to talk to Jack".  I texted HODL, I texted you.

Peter McCormack: How big's the number?

American HODL: I'm supposed to get you in touch with Jack; I forgot about that.

Peter McCormack: How big's the number?

American HODL: Cheaper than Indy Car.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, let's just say it's going to be a tenth of what they spent on Indy.

Peter McCormack: Well, the Indy thing was flexible though.  It was like, "How much can we raise?" ideally.  So, what are we talking about; $300,000?

CJ Wilson: Less.

Peter McCormack: How much?

CJ Wilson: Less, lots less.

Peter McCormack: $250,000, $200,000?

CJ Wilson: Way less.

Peter McCormack: $100,000?

CJ Wilson: Less, but I can't talk about it.  I don't want to talk about it.

Peter McCormack: Well, I can do it with all the money I've won off HODL.

American HODL: I'm going to win that bet at the end of the year.

CJ Wilson: Wait, what's the bet?  HODL already lost a bet to Jimmy a couple of months ago.

American HODL: I lost a bet to Peter too on the election; I bet Trump and Peter bet Biden.  I lost half a coin.  And, I'm going to win that half a coin back at the end of the year when the Bitcoin price is over $300k by Christmas.  Let's fucking go.

Peter McCormack: Do you want to double it?

CJ Wilson: This is what Bitcoin does.

American HODL: What, fucking double it?  It turns you into generic gamblers; is that what you're saying?!

Peter McCormack: I'll double it; I'll double it now.

American HODL: Of course you'll double it, because we're at $30k.  I feel very confident though in the original bet.

Peter McCormack: So, double it.

American HODL: I'm not doubling it.

CJ Wilson: Are you hedging this or what; what's the deal?

American HODL: No, I'm not hedging.

Peter McCormack: I'm not hedging. 

American HODL: I'm not hedging shit.

Peter McCormack: I thought about it.  Someone asked me to and someone told me I had to.

American HODL: Hedging is for pussies; I'm not hedging.

CJ Wilson: So, Peter, let me ask you this though; as a citizen of the world, someone that travels a lot, when you talk to new people, how do you explain how Bitcoin's helped you in terms of being a tourist of a traveller or whatever, because you get to go to all these places?  I mean, do you see that as Bitcoin normalising the world, because we talk about all the time how it's going to be the world economy?

Peter McCormack: Do you know what; it doesn't help me at all, apart from when I go to El Zonte, because I know other people are using it, I know other people are kind of Bitcoin only and when they get to a place, they're trying to find someone to sell some Bitcoin to, or maybe even an ATM.  There's one prominent bitcoiner when I was in Chile who was, "Do you want to buy some Bitcoin from me?" because he just travels on his Bitcoin, but I don't do that. 

Ideally, I don't really want to be travelling with Bitcoin, because of situations I don't want to be in, so all I tend to have is a small amount on a phone wallet.  But, going to El Zonte, the interesting thing there and El Salvador is that the project is so small and the town is so small, it just works.  They haven't got a cash machine apart from a Bitcoin ATM; and when I got there, the first day, I didn't even need any dollars, because I was coming straight in from, where was I coming in from?

CJ Wilson: Miami, right?

Peter McCormack: No, it was before that, the first time I went.  Anyway, but most places where you want to get a coffee or whatever, they've all got Lightning wallets on their phones, so you can just pay in Bitcoin and it's like $5 here, $2 there, so it doesn't matter.

Then, the second time I went back, I did need some dollars, so I went and used the ATM for the first time, which was an interesting experience.  But, if that project expands to the point where this is happening in places all around the world, then all it means is that I just don't even have to worry about cash.  And I've got this fucking thing here; let me show you this.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, HODL, so this is one of the things that we talk about a lot, which is at what point do you start holding more Bitcoin on you so you can actually transact, right, whether it's as a hot wallet, or whatever?

American HODL: Yeah, true.  As a general rule, you should only ever have, I don't know, maybe $1,000; whatever you're comfortable keeping in cash in a real wallet, that's what you should have on your phone, then everything else should be cold storage, right?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that's what I tell people.  It's an uncomfortable amount.  There's a threshold of discomfort where you're like, "This is too much money to have in one place".

American HODL: Did I tell you what happened to me in Miami? 

CJ Wilson: No.

American HODL: Somebody came up to me and a couple of other bitcoiners while we were at the bar and cloned my fucking phone. 

CJ Wilson: Oh, and you had a burner phone too though, right?

American HODL: Well, here's the thing.  I had a burner phone, but I was only using it at the Conference and when I was at Bitcoin-specific events.  And then of course, the one time I fucking slip up, I was just at the bar with a couple of guys, I won't say who just because I want to protect their security, but I thought it was just a safe location. 

One of the guys I was with had been tailed in by a Chinese national, who had a very suspicious suitcase with him.  I get back home, my accounts start getting hacked.  Luckily my security's pretty good, so no major problems, but it was a fucking bitch and a half, honestly.

Peter McCormack: How did they do that?

American HODL: They use this device called a Stingray to perpetuate a man-in-the-middle attack on you.  I think, anyway, that's what happened to me.  Yeah, but there were a lot of events like that happening down in Miami.

Peter McCormack: So, because of all the travel, this is a box I've got and it's full of all fucking foreign currencies because when you're done, you've always got some dollars left over, or whatever I've got.

CJ Wilson: It's like dust at this point.  You've got little, tiny amounts that you can't really convert, right?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, Barbados dollars, Hong Kong; honestly, I've got all kinds of fucking shit in here.

American HODL: Can't you just take it to a bank and they'll convert it for you?

Peter McCormack: Probably, but some of them, it's like…  What the fuck is this?  1,000 dong, 1,000 Vietnamese dong.  It's probably like 20 or 30 cents.

CJ Wilson: In certain parts of the country, 1,000 dong would be pretty popular!

American HODL: Yeah!

Peter McCormack: Fuck off!  What have I got here?  Hong Kong…

American HODL: You can just take this shit to a bank, bro; they'll cash it for you, but it back into pounds. 

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but what I'm saying is most of it's just not worth anything.  And also, sometimes I go back, like I've got some dollars at the moment and I go back and I'm like, "I'm going to America; I'm going to need dollars".

American HODL: Yeah, but the dollar's accepted everywhere, man.

Peter McCormack: But the point being is that the more you go to places that have got Bitcoin, you just don't even think about it. 

American HODL: It makes a lot of fucking sense for the world to have one currency, does it not?  I mean, it makes just the same amount of sense as the world to be on one language, but the one language thing will never fucking happen, because of cultural heritage and all sorts of shit.  But one money; we can do one money.  Communication would be just so much more seamless; you basically get globalism minus debt slavery.  There are so many intangible benefits to us all being on the same currency.

CJ Wilson: But how many countries do we really need before it is one money, that's the question?  I mean, obviously we've got a couple in the oven right now potentially, right; Panama, Paraguay, some of these other ones.  I really hope Panama goes for it, because Panama would be the Switzerland of Latin America at that point, because so much business runs through the Panama Canal.  It's super industrialised, huge airport, good population size and it's literally the bridge between North and South America and the Pacific and Atlantic, and I think that could be a massive hub for a lot of people.

Peter McCormack: But if you have El Salvador, Panama and Paraguay, you've got a movement.

CJ Wilson: That's what I'm saying.  Costa Rica has to do it at that point, right?  And then you have this whole surfing tourism between El Zonte, Costa Rica and then Panama.  You could do this whole Bitcoin surf tour, you know what I mean?

American HODL: The problem for us as Americans is, if you want to go down to one of these Bitcoin-friendly regions, America still wants to take a hefty bite out of your ass.  So, even if you plan to move there, you've got basically a 50% exit tax.  I don't know what it's like in England, but for us that's a real concern.

Or, you could try and say, "I'm going to do some shell game stuff in the Caribbean, or whatever", but honestly, that seems dangerous and they will come after you, no matter where you are.  Americans are kind of stuck.  We need to stay here and shift things from the inside rather than exiting, I think.

CJ Wilson: Yeah.  I think that the question is, who's next in Congress to go for the laser eyes?  You've got Lummis, Warren Davidson, you've got some other people that are very focussed on it and, I would say, open to it.

American HODL: Not Maxine Walters, I'd say that much!

CJ Wilson: No.  But we can elect bitcoiners though; that's the thing.  If we're willing to elect bitcoiners and take it on as a single-issue vote, then, you know…  The American system has a lot more turnover than a lot of these other countries, because you don't have a dictator that's going to stay there for 10, 20 years; you've got people that you can vote out after 4 years.

So, we were talking about this a lot at Telegram groups and stuff, what can we do to potentially talk to people that are involved in the legislative branch to see what there is that they need to see, you know, with Bitcoin ETFs or whatever; there are these sectors that are very exposed, because they want to get re-elected; and if we go to them and say, "Hey, listen, you might get 2 million or 3 million voters if you pick this up", that's a big deal for a governor or something, which is why Suarez is doing such an open campaign in Miami about that, right?  He's looking to attract Bitcoin voters that will keep voting him in as mayor.  It's got to be the way psychologically.

Peter McCormack: Can we talk about Breedlove?

CJ Wilson: Yeah, let's do it.

American HODL: You want to?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I do, because --

American HODL: I read the whole thing he wrote.

CJ Wilson: I didn't read it.

Peter McCormack: I've read it.  Well, I read the first half and then I skimmed the second half.

American HODL: So, what do you think?

Peter McCormack: So, I'm European so I'm a bit softer and I just don't know if he wants to rewind the clock or he wants to stick to his guns, but I want the clock to be rewound for him and this not to have happened.  I like the guy, I spent time with him in Miami; he's a nice guy; he's a good dude and I'm just finding what's happening to him brutal.  And I know he deserves it and I know this is toxicity, etc; I don't know, I just feel sorry for him.

CJ Wilson: I don't know him that well, but I think he's a very intellectual guy and I think sometimes, what happens to very intellectual people is they take a stance and they don't consider all the angles at the end of the day.  If someone would have told him this was an 80% chance of happening, I don't think he would have gone about it the same way; that's a good way to say it.  But in other interviews, I think it comes down to him coming down to him saying, "Hey, I'm going to be me and you can't change me either way, because this is my freedom to say what I want". 

From a financial standpoint, I think a lot of people jumped to conclusions that maybe were a little bit extreme and then it just got worse.  And now, I think it serves more as a warning, not to people on that level, authors and thought-leaders and stuff like; but more to everybody new entering this space to say, "Hey, listen, the temptation to take easy money never goes away" and that is why bitcoiners are so militant, or whatever you want to call it, towards, "Do this path, do this thing, don't do these things, do this".  It's because they feel like the temptation is really bad.

If you liken it to something else, whether it's a religion or whatever, there's obviously certain things that are sort of non-negotiable in those belief sectors; and in this case, this particular thing has been since inception as such a one-way street.  You pay in Bitcoins to get these tokens; it's bullshit, because you can't get your Bitcoin back.  So, anything you can't get your Bitcoin back is somewhat of a scam, or a full scam, and that's the way a lot of us see it.  And regardless of who it is, that's the way I look at it.

American HODL: What I want Rob to do is I want Rob to come out and say, "Listen, guys, I needed the money, I promoted, and then it dumped a shitcoin.  I tried to get one past you, because I knew it was unethical.  I fucked up and I'm sorry and I'm obviously not a shitcoiner, I obviously don't believe in this project, and just a human error on my part".

Peter McCormack: But that's not what happened.

CJ Wilson: That's not what happened at all.  You read his thing; his thing is 3,000 words.  I read the whole thing and he says, "I did not need your money".

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but CJ, you could easily argue that you're post-rationalising something.  Let's just go to the point pre-draining the wallet, where he's just said, "I'm just going to have a look at this", right.  Now, my only defence of this is, I know everyone's called it a scam, but what if he's intellectually wanting to look at it, because he's considering, "Is there a better way to run social networks?" 

The reason I'll put that out there is, we have Bitcoin maxis that understand that Ethereum is a piece of shit and they've had to play with Ethereum to understand that.  They've had to look at it, they've had to dig into the code.  So, pre-draining the wallet, he was getting a lot of shit and I was thinking, "Well, hold on, I want to look at BitClout, I want to see how it works.  I think it's kind of interesting".

CJ Wilson: So, my take on that, and I understand where you're coming from completely, which is to say that anybody should be allowed, because it's a free world, to investigate whatever they want, academically.  Here's the difference: you don't put it on Twitter.  You can google something and you can investigate things, you can look things up without having to tweet a link; or maybe you can phone a friend, call Jimmy or HODL, or one of these other people, call Peter McCormack; call somebody, right.

American HODL: Did he not say within the piece, I didn't read the piece, but somebody told me that he said within the piece that he wanted to see if he could pump up the value of the BitClout token?

CJ Wilson: He wanted to see if him tweeting about it was going to have a big enough effect to move the price of his token, or whatever, and it did.  But here's the thing.  He also says, "I'm not sorry I did this, I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist, I'm not toxic and this proves it.  I am a freedom maximalist, I'm going to do whatever I want, no one can tell me what to do and if someone judges me, I'm going to block them and I don't give a shit", and that's kind of a summary.  That's fine, because it's his life and he can live it however he wants. 

The problem is, and as an athlete I can tell you that this is very common, okay; hero worship leads to disappointment, broken hearts and posters torn off the wall.  People are like, "Goddam it, brother, I loved you", you know what I mean?  This is like this alpha male buff dude that writes all this stuff and uses big words and people are like, "Look, it's a really smart guy; it's a smart guy in Bitcoin; it's not just some Cheeto-eating dude in the basement that didn't do anything before this".

But everybody is subjected to the same rules on the internet which is that, if you tell people things, they're going to look it up.  If I threw a stat out there like, "Oh, I threw the fastest fast ball in history", people are going to be like, "Fuck this guy; there's no way he did"; they're going to look it up.  So, if you do anything, people are going to google it, people are going to look it up, they're going to check your Wikipedia, they're going to check YouTube, they're going to look it up.  And, as a result of him having a lot of material out there to sift through, he's getting ripped to shreds by people that have seen all these other things that he's said over the last couple of years. 

The reality is, he's been in Bitcoin probably about the same amount of time that I've been in Bitcoin, but I've only been a personality in Bitcoin, or whatever, for three months because of Clubhouse, because I went in there and said some profound shit and did some impersonations.  People were like, "Wow, this guy gets it".  But I'm not trying to sell a book, you know what I'm saying?  I'm not trying to be a Bitcoin personality in that regard.  I'm a baseball person, I'm a car dealer, but I just happen to have a very hard stance on Bitcoin.  But I'm more of a political person in that regard.  I think politically we have problems and Bitcoin can solve our political problems; that's my thing.

Financially, if you want to mine Ethereum and flip it to Bitcoin, you're kind of helping the Ethereum Network to do that, because you're providing security, but once proof of stake comes out, then you can't even do that unless you have 30 Ethereum.  So, I don't know.  But I traded a lot of other shit on the way up to becoming a Bitcoin-only person, but I haven't written a book saying I've only been a Bitcoin person, if that makes sense.

Peter McCormack: Let me put something else at you, because I always try and think these things through.  I'm somebody that makes shows and I'm thinking, "Is there an interesting topic here?"  The BitClout thing, I struggle with, because we all knew it was a piece of shit; we've known for a long time.  But the wider issue is, are we getting ourselves into a position where there's things we can't talk about and we're trapping ourselves in a corner?  Let me give you an example.

So, I did a show today with Nadav, who's fucking great.  We did all about why Bitcoin matters and other blockchains are a piece of shit, right, and we covered Ethereum quite a bit.  But the one thing with Ethereum that always goes around my head is that there are large parts of the Bitcoin ecosystem that benefits from stablecoins; they absolutely, without doubt, benefit from stablecoins for people trading in and trading out, okay?  And there are parts of companies which are Bitcoin only that have had parts of their business built using stablecoins.

So I'm like, "Well, I definitely need to look at Ethereum, because I need to think about this stablecoin thing".  You know, if I'm going to countries whereby people want Bitcoin or a synthetic dollar, because they want to trade between the two, well I need to at least look at Ethereum and discuss it and understand how stable it is, what its long-term future is.  But I feel like even raising that issue, if I put on Twitter, "I need to look at Ethereum because of stablecoins", I almost can't be fucked, because I know the bullshit you're going to get from it.

CJ Wilson: Yeah, that's a good point.  But I think the difference is, going out and doing an independent investigation off-camera versus saying, "I'm going to take a position on this before I've researched it", if that makes sense, because it's an indirect endorsement of something if you go out there and say, "Hey, guys, I really think it's important that ERC-20 tokens are actually considered as logical to hold" which, to be fair, you could make a supporting argument for that; because, in a lot of exchanges, that is the on-ramp, off-ramp.  You can't put dollars onto some of these exchanges, because they don't accept dollars, right; so, that's the reality and that's, I think, a logical case there.

But you're not necessarily pumping up the value of a stablecoin to do that and I think that's the difference.

Peter McCormack: No, you're missing the point.

CJ Wilson: But you're right, there's off limits, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Forget the pump, yeah, it feels like it's an off-limit conversation; but the elephant in the room is that people are using stablecoins.  I'm like, I definitely need to look at Ethereum because of this, because it's part of the ecosystem and people use it.  But if I do this, I'm just going to get fucking shouted at and harassed, so I can't even be bothered.  And that's why I worry that we've gone so far down the toxic rabbit hole, we are missing the ability to just even look at some things; do you know I'm saying?

American HODL: Bitcoin maximalism is a bell curve phenomenon.  On the right side of the bell curve, you have the people who have done all the first-principles thinking, all the independent research and concluded, after sifting through everything, that Bitcoin is the way the truth aligns.  On the left side, you have pure, unbridled dogmatism. 

So, a lot of Twitter is going to be pure, unbridled dogmatism; that doesn't mean they're not right, you know what I'm saying?  So, it's a little complicated to say, "Everybody's so toxic and they're so mean to me".

Peter McCormack: I don't think everyone is.

American HODL: Well, no, I'm just saying there's a certain sect of bitcoiners, and we all know some of the names, who these people have mental health issues, they're just being assholes just to be assholes and they would be toxic about anything.  They're like the SJWs of Bitcoin and honestly, shut the fuck up, because they're fucking annoying, they have nothing to say and they provide no value.

But most bitcoiners are not like that.  I would say 99% of bitcoiners are not like that.  Most bitcoiners have done a fair amount of first-principles thinking about this.  And in relation to the Rob situation, I'll tell you that I get texted and I get DMs from very well-respected people that we all know in the Bitcoin space who were disappointed in this action by Rob, but don't feel that they need to cancel him; do feel that there is a path to repentance for this.  But it's essentially like, you've got to stop lying.

That page of, "This is all independent inquiry"; listen, it's all bullshit and we all know it's bullshit and you just can't slip one by the community like this.  You can try and do that, you can keep doubling down; but essentially --

CJ Wilson: That's a bad strategy.

American HODL: Yeah, it's a bad strategy; people are not going to engage with your stuff anymore.  What you need to do is say, "Listen, I did do this.  The mimetic attack on me was extremely distressing as an individual because, Peter, you've been through one; CJ, you know you're a professional pitcher, they used to write terrible things about you in the newspaper; it is very distressing when you're a human and you go through these kinds of things.  You can make rash decisions, like the mass blocking or calling everybody else out and not looking inward and these kinds of things, because it's a very defensive posture.

For me, I get it.  But at some point, you have to just be, "This was a fuck up; this was a fuck up on my part".

CJ Wilson: You have to take the loss and be accountable to that.  It's very simple.  And if you do that, everybody forgives the person that is accountable and takes the loss and doesn't try to keep doubling down, and that's where you have this political side of it and the social side of it, which are definitely different than the mathematical argument or the toxic maximalist argument, or whatever you want to call it.

American HODL: One more point, I want to say this.  There's been so much discussion this cycle about toxic maximalism; and the reason there's so much discussion about that is because nobody is actually doing a first-principles analysis on why Bitcoin is successful, why Bitcoin is here to stay, why nation states are adopting Bitcoin.  That's the kind of thing you do when you have nothing to say; you say, "Bitcoiners are mean.  Let's talk about why bitcoiners are mean to me on Twitter", right, and that's been a lot of the conversation around "toxic maximalism" this cycle.

These people have no answers, they have no worthwhile opinions.  All their criticisms of Bitcoin have fallen on deaf ears over the years, because they're all nonsense.  The best critiques come from inside Bitcoin and so, what do they do?  They go, "These people are mean to me".  Come on, are we in the fucking playground?  Who cares if people are mean to you?

Peter McCormack: It's not always that way.  Look, I know what you're saying, but --

American HODL: It's mainly that way.  I think Eric Weinstein is a good example.  He has offered no meaningful contributions to Bitcoin yet; he wants to tell us all how to be and it's like, "No thanks, man".  And I like Eric Weinstein too, I like Eric Weinstein. 

Peter McCormack: Me too.

American HODL: I think he's been more engaging in good faith than he has been not engaging in good faith, but it's also all these lessons, all these trade-offs, the way this thing functions; this was fucking hard-won knowledge.  We're not going to just bend over and give it up for you who just got here two minutes ago, because you don't like our disposition.  We're going to keep being the way we are.

Peter McCormack: I spoke to him today.  So, I have to approve -- I mean, I don't have to do it, someone else could do it, but I approve all the YouTube comments, because there's so much spam and it ruins the feed.  So, I just go through, tick, tick, block, block.  The Weinstein interview has split the listeners more than anyone.

American HODL: That was a frustrating interview for me to listen to.  I told you about this in Miami; it was very frustrating.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it was frustrating for me.  I want to do it again and I want to let him talk and be less combative.  But the thing about the comments is, what I think I've figured out is that some were brutal like, "You're an idiot" and the others were completely the other way, "Eric can't explain anything".  Me and Eric talked about this today and neither of us have thrown each other under the bus.  I think we need to do another one, because we've figured each other out.

What I think has happened with that one, because I took it really to heart, I've started really looking at the comments, and actually what I think these are, these are people who are shitcoiners or nocoiners, or they're Eric Weinstein fans who have discovered the interview and watched it and they don't fully understand Bitcoin yet; and therefore, they're seeing maximalists argue with Eric and think, "You shouldn't be fucking arguing with him; he's a genius".  It's such a tricky -- I don't think it's an interview that you can… 

The President Bukele one, universally everyone loves it.  I shut the fuck up, I let him talk and he just did a great job.  This one, I don't think you can do one that everyone likes with Weinstein.

American HODL: The enemies of freedom, the enemies of liberty, the enemies of Bitcoin are sharpening their knives to go against Bitcoin right now.  You expect us to be nice to you on Twitter?  The answer is no, the answer is straight up, "No, we're not going to be nice to you".

CJ Wilson: Yeah, because you're competing with something.

American HODL: This is more important than your feelings; it's way more important than your feelings.  This is not a business, we're not a corporation.  Someone told me the other day on Clubhouse, I'm doing a bad job marketing for Bitcoin.  I was like, "I'm not a marketer, fuck-face.  I'm not here for you; I'm here for myself".

Peter McCormack: Yeah!

CJ Wilson: I think you're right about that, and to address both those points, it doesn't matter how smart you are, it matters how well you can articulate the point you're trying to make, and I think if Eric had somebody to actually type out his words, like an editor, his book would be incredible, because you could take all these combative things he says like, "Oh, well they haven't done anything for anybody yet.  They haven't done this, they haven't done that, they haven't made a new university" and it's like, "Okay, well hang on a second, Bitcoin's ten years old".  What has Silicon Valley done?  So, let's slow down.

Peter McCormack: Well, CJ, this is what I pride myself on, is that I can get myself to do that, not because I have a talent, but just because my level of understanding is at the right bar that when they say something I don't understand I'm like, "Can you explain that better?"  And I could not get him to do it.

CJ Wilson: But that's a result of his psychological status; it's not a result of his intelligence or his IQ.  It's a result of him maybe being in a bad mood, or whatever.

American HODL: It's not that hard to explain these things.

Peter McCormack: Rogan manages to do it and Rogan is the best out there at this; and I take full responsibility.  I think, if I'd have been less combative, then when we got to those difficult bits, then he might have been more forthcoming; but I think I put him into a position where he felt like he was in a bit of an argument, like he was anti-Bitcoin and we were pro-Bitcoin, and he wasn't.  He is pro-Bitcoin, but he just has these ideas.  Whether they're right or wrong, I definitely fucked that one up.

CJ Wilson: But here's the thing though; that's okay.  If this is his version of being pro-Bitcoin, that's fine, do a you, we don't really care; that's the whole point.  And, if you're trying to inspire a spiritual, revolutionary change in the people, this is what we talk about, right, in a lot of ways, that Bitcoin does that, then you have to find a way to actually talk about why that happens. 

I think that's what Robert was trying to do with a lot of his texts and stuff over the years, was he was trying to put out this thing to say, "Hey, listen, this is connected".  And reading some of that stuff, I'm like, "Okay, this is a little bit of word salad, you could do this better", but I'm a writing major, so I'm always very critical when I read things.  I think the best way to say it in any way, as an interviewer, as a subject, "Can you say what you're trying to say?  Can you make your point in as few, simple words as possible?"  We don't have to get into massive, polysyllabic battles, we don't have to have these huge things.  You can use a metaphor that can make sense, right.

HODL had this tweet stream the other day.  It was like, "This is your portfolio, this is your diversified portfolio", and it was Helm's Deep, boom, you know what I mean, because it's evocative imagery, which is why memes are so effective for people that are under 50 years old, because we understand the cultural reference; we understand the comedic reference; we understand the designation that you're giving to that person in terms of status.  In Japanese, it's eight levels of formality when you're speaking Japanese; so, memes have this same thing.

You put a clip out of the movie, White Girls, that's going to have a totally different effect than the movie, The Graduate, or whatever.  So, you just have to know your audience, in a lot of ways, and people that can tailor their diction to the audience will win over many people, regardless of the subject.  We could be talking about solar panels, lions, vintage race cars or hats or whatever; if you're approachable and you talk with the other person in mind, that's what emotional intelligence is, that's the EQ and that's something that Eric doesn't have a lot of.  He has a lot of IQ, but there's plenty of people that have both and that's where you wouldn't necessarily put him on stage to win everybody over at a political rally, because it's not his vibe.

American HODL: To answer Eric's central question from the interview, because I've thought about it, he basically asked, "Can the decentralised people do centralised things?" and the answer is, "Some of them can, in smaller tribes, factionalised", and that's what's going to happen.  Essentially, no, there is no Bitcoin community, we're not going to move as one unit, we're not going to do big, centralised things; but there will be factions that split off and they do their own thing.

You can think about it like the Catholic Church and all the offshoots of the Catholic Church.  Bitcoin maximalism is the Catholic Church.  It is the big, powerful entity that draws in the most power, influence and social significance, and then you have other smaller sects that orbit it.  And that's sort of how we've been evolving in this space for a while now, and I don't see any reason that's going to discontinue any time soon.

CJ Wilson: The problem with that is when someone like Henry VIII comes in and wants to make his own rules and make his own church, right, based on whims, not based on Lutheranism, where they're making most of their --

American HODL: We see that in Bcash, or BSV or any of the four coins.  Bitcoin is like Christ; everybody can get together and love Christ, no matter what their different flavouring of blockchain is!  Bitcoin is at the core, is at the centre of it all.  But you have to stay within social consensus in order to be part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, whether you have a different moral flavouring, social flavouring, in-group, out-group dynamic, all of that kind of stuff.  We're just going to see more and more disparate Bitcoin tribes and, yeah, bitcoiners hate each other, man; Bitcoin is money for enemies.

Peter McCormack: I love you, HODL!

CJ Wilson: But the centralisation thing though is interesting, because there's a lot of very centralised entities out there that are running everything, right; non-government organisations; you have governments; you have all these other things.  So right now, we're seeing a sort of effervescence, right.  You're seeing these plebes kind of rise up as they have more financial power. 

You see my fingers here, so anyone that's listening that can't see it, it's like the grass growing, right.  Eventually, the grass and the seeds of the grass spread and you get more and more people, more plebs stretched out across the world that are holding Bitcoin, whether it's 0.1 or 0.01 or whatever in their wallet; they are a bitcoiner; we're on the same Bitcoin team in that regard.

But the thing is, as that influence has, I would say, it's going to have a wider effect, and the wider effect is going to create a central voting block in certain places, where you've going to have someone like Cynthia Lummis, who's probably always going to attract bitcoiners to Wyoming to live in her district, realistically.  Then you'll have people like Suarez that are bringing in businesses actively, "Hey, guys, come here.  Get away from Gavin Newsom's idiocy.  Come to me, we will take care of you, we'll bring you bikinis, it will be awesome, we'll have drinks with umbrellas in them".

So, you're going to see more mainstream people trying to adopt Bitcoin as a result of wanting the plebs.  That's really how it's going to go.  It's the opposite.  We're not going to have a thought-boy, or a think-boy, come out and just be like this spike and everyone's going to be like, "Think-boy; bow before think-boy!"  That's not the reality for how this movement goes.  This movement comes from the ground up, like grass, like seeds, and it's going to spread wide.  And the width of it is going to be the numbers, the numbers are the girth, the girth is what moves --

American HODL: Using the grass analogy I think is interesting, because in a decentralised movement, when certain blades of grass get too high, or when their egos get too big, they're going to get whacked back down, so that they can be in line with everybody else.  Now, is that an autoimmune response, or is that a healthy manicured English garden; you tell me, Peter McCormack?

Peter McCormack: It's an English garden.

CJ Wilson: There you go.  So, we've just got to keep growing the grass.  You've got to keep growing the grass to keep everybody humble and stacking sats.  And if people are trying to use their pile of Bitcoin, which some people have a much bigger pile of Bitcoin than others; if they're trying to use that as a weapon, then that's when they need to get whacked.  If they're trying to use that influence for the wrong reasons, it's very easy to see through that and then people are going to turn, because they're getting shade then, because this one guy is trying to overshadow everybody else.  And that's where it becomes a problem socially.

But if we want to have solutions socially, then it's because we communicate and keep the good ideas shared between people.  And we only get one vote at the end of the day; it doesn't matter who you are, you get one vote.

Peter McCormack: Does this feel like he's pitching to be the new Breedlove; it feels like a pitch?

CJ Wilson: I don't give a shit about that. 

Peter McCormack: He's going to come out with an 84-page essay tomorrow on some deep, philosophical shit where you need to take acid to understand it.

CJ Wilson: Did someone tell you about my Substack already, Peter?  Did you already read my Substack?

Peter McCormack: I'll tell you what; his Twitter handle tomorrow's going to be CJlove!

American HODL: I think honestly, one of the best things you can do is cut yourself down repeatedly.  There's a reason I don't have a high follower account on Twitter; it's because I don't want to have a high follower account on Twitter.

CJ Wilson: Is that why you only wear white T-shirts?

American HODL: Yes.

CJ Wilson: So, you've got a mono-colour culture?

American HODL: I'm a mono-colour maximalist here.

CJ Wilson: But, Peter, this is the thing, right; the best and strongest structures develop away from the light.  It's very hard to build something perfect in front of everybody.  You can't pull off the magic trick that we're trying to with Bitcoin in a glass case in the middle of Wembley Stadium; it's not going to happen.  It's going to across and it's going to be gradual and it's going to be, one day everyone's just going to wake up and be, "Oh, yeah, Bitcoin's just this thing we do".

I don't think it's going to be a coup.  This isn't Lenin taking power from the Romanovs of Russia; that's not what this is.  This is not that.  So, everybody has this militant vision of that, but it's a very slow version of that, because you have election cycles, you have halvings, you have all this other stuff.  It's going to be hard for Bitcoin, even if number go up, people aren't just going to be able to use their Bitcoin for influence; because if you expose yourself like that, there's a definite downside to that.

So, I don't know how many Bitcoin I have.  That's the thing that's going to be said.  It's not going to be, "Oh, yeah, well this is how much I have and this is why I bought it; I bought it for this", because people extrapolate that; they're like, "This guy's a target now" and you don't want to make yourself a target in Bitcoin.  That's the privacy thing that makes it different and that's different than religion, which is sort of like, "Hey, follow me, I'm the Pied Piper".  Fuck that; that's the problem.  It's the people that do that, that say, "Let's march to Bitcoin town", those people are going to get rekt, socially or whatever, because they will trip at some point and the mob will run them over.  And that's always what happens.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, it is.

American HODL: And bitcoiners love to kill heroes, you know what I mean?

Peter McCormack: They want blood.

CJ Wilson: They love to be right.

American HODL: Yeah.

CJ Wilson: They love to be right, so there's a suspicion about everybody in power.  We're all suspicious of those people, right.  Because, the people in power have to protect themselves and have to stay in power; that's the one thing they're really good at, is staying there.

American HODL: Listen, if I ever promote a shitcoin, play this podcast clip back, cancel me, meme me into oblivion, do your worst, because it will be deserved at that point.

CJ Wilson: Yeah.  I mean, I'm only where I'm at because I've been scammed.  I've only been where I'm at because I've been scammed and I've been ripped off by people, and I've had to sue people and people have gone to jail.  That's the only reason why I know.  That's the pain.  But there will be pain; that is the teacher.  If you're not willing to deal with that, you won't ever be as good a bitcoiner as you can be.

Peter McCormack: Well, it's a bit like President Bukele.  When he campaigned to become President, he campaigned on that tagline, it was like, "There's enough money, we just have got to stop stealing it", or something.  And the reality is --

American HODL: Genius!

Peter McCormack: But it is, because the last four presidents stole hundreds of millions.  One's in Nicaragua, two are in jail and one died.  But really, there's enough gains in Bitcoin as long as you're patient.

American HODL: Yeah, exactly.  All it takes is patience.

Peter McCormack: All it takes is four years.  It takes four years.

American HODL: Well, think about it like this.  The CAGR on Bitcoin was 200% at the beginning of the decade, right.  If the CAGR is even half that, or even if it's lower than that, let's say it's 75%, somewhere between 50% and 100% going forward the next decade, and we don't know; we could go into hyperinflationary conditions, it could be even more than that; but let's just say.  If you have a certain amount of Bitcoin right now -- I did the maths on this.

If you DCA $20 a day every day for the next ten years and the CAGR ends up being 75%, at the end of ten years, you have $16 million.  So, there is tremendous appreciation, not only for the people that are already in Bitcoin, but for the people that are brand new, but you do need to stay the course.  You need to be consistent, you need to be focussed; you're not going to win because you got fancy trading this shitcoin for that shitcoin for this shitcoin.  You're going to win because you're going to be behaviourally consistent over time and at the end of the decade, you will have gifted yourself a brand new life, essentially.

People don't like to do this though, because it feels like giving something to a stranger, because when you think about your future self, it's so far off that it feels like a stranger.  But you can literally gift yourself a better life, and that's what I want to see for everyone.

Peter McCormack: But it doesn't have to be that $20 a day; it can be whatever you can afford, as long as you consistently do it.

American HODL: No, yeah, that's a specific example.

Peter McCormack: I'm saying, whatever you can afford is the position you're at and it's going to raise your standards over that period.  So, if you're the guy who can only afford $5 a day, it's still going to raise your standard proportionately, unless you're a moron who's living far out of his depth; you're going to be able to raise your standard.

CJ Wilson: But that's the satoshi versus the full Bitcoin argument though.  It's like, focussing on stacking satoshis, it's a smaller unit, then you can count from the bottom up instead of the top down, because it's very demeaning to say, "Oh, I can only buy 0.00000…"  People get activity bias, they get unit bias and all that stuff; but if it's at 75%, HODL, this one's for you, then you're 10Xing in a couple of years as a result.

American HODL: Exactly; it's crazy.  I mean, think about it like this.  I hear people say reputation is essentially worthless and this is an accumulation game, so you should get as much Bitcoin as you possibly can, and I just have to say that if you take a longer time horizon on this, if you have more patience, you will see that your reputation is as valuable as your Bitcoin; because, the people in Bitcoin who know who you are, who've watched your journey, your peers, these people are going to have tremendous amounts of capital in the future, they're going to be the true risk capital, the next generation Silicon Valley venture capitalist guys who are doing the exciting projects, putting money behind new start-ups, funding exciting ventures, trying to actually change the world with their wealth, rather than just buying Lamborghinis; and you want to be invited in on those kinds of deals.

So, be greedy, be greedy as fuck, but be greedy in the long term; don't be greedy in the short term.  I don't see how people can't see that.

CJ Wilson: Because, I think people have a hard time today.  They're having a hard time today and they're looking for a solution today for tomorrow and they haven't lived through that volatility, or they haven't accepted that volatility's just normal.  People have ups and downs for sure.

Peter McCormack: Right, Scarlett, what did I promise you before I started?

Scarlett: You'd be an hour long.

Peter McCormack: And how long have I been?

Scarlett: Like, three!

Peter McCormack: No, I've been two.  I promised her an hour.  She said, "Last time you said that, you were two hours".  I said, "No definitely, it's only going to be an hour tonight", and then we've done two hours.  Dude's, this girl --

CJ Wilson: Sorry, Pete.

Peter McCormack: No, it's my fault.  Tell the guys what you did today?  She got in the school cricket team.  She got in the boy's team!

American HODL: Congratulations!

CJ Wilson: All right; there we go!

Peter McCormack: Come on, two wickets; she got two wickets!

CJ Wilson: That's awesome.

Peter McCormack: She got bowled out.  Listen, come here.  No, this is important.  CJ, so baseball's similar; CJ's a pitcher, right.

Scarlett: What's a pitcher?

Peter McCormack: Throws the ball.  CJ, how many home runs did you have in your major league career?

CJ Wilson: Do you mean as a hitter?  Zero.  But as a pitcher, I gave up home runs for sure, yeah.

Peter McCormack: So, you can't hear it, you're not even hearing this.

Scarlett: He hit zero.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, he hit zero, right.  So she, today, she got two wickets, which is basically like a strike out.  She got two of those, but she didn't hit many runs, and she's worried about the runs.  I was trying to say, "Look, everyone's got their role to play in the game, right?"

CJ Wilson: Yeah, specialising is job insurance, I would say; the job security is to be specialist at one thing.  But then you can always get better; as long as you're good enough at that one thing, they can't get rid of you, so you can work your way up on the other skillset; that's the key

Peter McCormack: By the way, Scarlett, do you want to know something funny?  See this guy here?  He paid for the deposit on the Aston! 

Scarlett: What's a deposit?

Peter McCormack: The deposit?  You know when I bought the Aston Martin?  Well, I had to give them a deposit of whatever, £20,000; he paid for it.

American HODL: Don't worry, Scarlett.  Your dad's actually been very nice too; he's going to give it back to me at the end of the year, so don't worry about it.

Peter McCormack: I'm not going to.

American HODL: It was nothing; it was just a small loan.

Peter McCormack: Listen, I've got to go and be dad.  HODL, don't forget to send me your invoice for the show, right?

American HODL: So fucking annoying; that's so annoying!

Peter McCormack: CJ, man, love you, brother.  It was great to meet you in Miami, thanks for coming on.  We've got to do this again; CJ, you're awesome, dude.

CJ Wilson: I'm in!  Thanks, Peter, appreciate it.

Peter McCormack: Love it, and when we're next out in Yosemite, we'll come out and we'll see you, hang out.

CJ Wilson: Let's see some bears.

Peter McCormack: HODL, love you, bro.  Let's see some bears and, HODL, I'll see you soon, man.

American HODL: Tell MI6 I said, "What's up?"

Peter McCormack: All right, well just send me your invoice; I'll see you later.