WBD351 Audio Transcription
Is the Bitcoin Bull Market Over? With Willy Woo
Interview date: Friday 21st May
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Willy Woo. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.
In this interview, I talk to on-chain analyst and the co-founder of Hypersheet, Willy Woo. We discuss what caused the dip, who’s buying it up, and Willy’s new price targets.
“The people who were most scared and the reason why markets dropped so much this time, was these guys that sold their coins, they were new participants...holding whale-sized quantities of bitcoin which creates a new concentration of wealth. What happened was they were the ones that sold.”
— Willy Woo
Interview Transcription
Peter McCormack: Willy, mate, oh my God, we have a lot to talk about. How are you?
Willy Woo: Good, pretty good. It's been an interesting 48 hours, hasn't it?
Peter McCormack: It's been a wild 48 hours. I can imagine you were fine with it whilst a lot of people are panicking and worrying; and for an experienced trader, it was a good time to trade.
Willy Woo: Yeah. Well, I was coming back from retreat and taking it slow, so unwound a lot of my positions and yeah, I was pretty much sitting in cash and not trading. It kind of pulled me back in, but yeah, it's been just really interesting to watch this last 48 hours unfold. I mean, gosh, the market was already pretty soft. We had in April, if you can recall, the miners tripped over the power cord in China and we had the hash rate drop and all the derivatives unwound and we got a lot of price drop.
We were just recovering from that; the price got up to $55,000 from recent bottoms and then, Elon tweeted that Tesla would not accept Bitcoin, as they previously had announced, as payment for their Tesla cars; but furthermore, citing the fossil fuel usage, which was met with sudden sell-off, significant sell-off and it wasn't sell-off from the derivatives, because they had all just unwound. The market had just been purged of traders and we were pretty much looking good.
But, we had tidal waves of coins start to fall and be sent into the exchanges and whales were selling down. And from the looks of the age of those coins, they didn't carry much age with them, so very young coins. I think they were the coins that were collected on the way up, between the $24,000 to the $40,000 mark back in January. It just seemed like that also from the profit those coins were carrying as they were being dumped out.
So, we saw this price drop, first very immediately from short-term speculators. It kind of stabilised around the low $50,000s and it teetered there as more and more coins were being sent into the exchanges. So put together, the latest bearish action we had in April, a very tentative recovery and then this second wave of hard sell-down, the markets didn't really withstand that and we lost $50,000, then found our next level at $45,000.
As that was happening, traders, not spot investors, but traders were thinking they would buy the dip, so the number of contracts on these futures exchanges started climbing and climbing and climbing, and we reached an all-time high, in terms of Bitcoin value, at kind of by then we were down to teetering around the $40,000, £38,000 mark, and the amount of selling was enough to push it over and we dropped below $38,000, which apparently was the liquidation level for these long positions.
Peter McCormack: Is that what drove us down to $30,000 then?
Willy Woo: Yeah. We had a minor capitulation where we dipped down and recovered quickly and I think a lot of traders thought that was it; and then, the selling was too strong and we broke below the liquidation levels, the risk limits, where even a long position, there's going to be a certain price where you're either going to get bankrupted or your risk levels are going to kick in and you're going to sell out of the long position.
So, we just saw cascades of these futures contracts, long positions, unwind. That's just saying they're going to sell down; and when they sell, of course the price drops and that hits the next person down at the lower level, and then it's a cascade and a runaway of selling as these long positions get bankrupted, and that took us down to $30,000, even $29,000 on some exchanges, within minutes, absolute minutes.
All the exchanges started to freeze up. The UIs on them started to freeze up; Binance, Coinbase, Kraken, all of them. FTX held pretty strong, they were pretty much okay; but people who were wanting to buy the dip couldn't even buy the dip, they couldn't even log in. Even BlockFi, where people were trying to log in, trying to send in more collateral on their Bitcoin-based loans, were shut out as well momentarily over that mayhem.
So, that's what happened and then of course, once we purged all that selling, the price immediately bounced back up into the higher $30,000s, almost within a few minutes or so. It was fireworks; absolute mayhem!
Peter McCormack: Yeah. I mean, I've been through two bull markets. The first one doesn't really count, but the last one witnessed 30%, maybe 40% drops, panicked myself, didn't know what to do. Weirdly enough with this one, even with it going almost 51% down from the high, I was still all right with it; I was kind of okay. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind, because I get paid by some of my sponsors in Bitcoin, and so they're the only coins I sometimes worry about, because I need to use them to operate the business at times. But personal stacks, I was like, "No, I'm fine. It is what it is".
My DMs and emails were rekt for 48 hours. I can't get through the DMs quicker than they're coming in and some of them are actually really quite sad. I've got people claiming they've lost everything, they don't know what to do, they don't know how to tell their wife, they're broke; really sad stories. That's the sad side of it, but I think also sometimes I'm not sure what to do. You want to put an arm round them and say, "I'm really sorry this has happened to you"; but you also, another time, want to say, "Look, you're taking on too much risk. No Bitcoin held in cold storage was liquidated. If you're putting everything into leveraged positions, you're taking way too much risk".
Willy Woo: Yeah, you can only lose if you're on leverage, I mean on the wrong side of that, so a double-edged sword. It's all great when things are going up, but with these markets now, we've got so much leverage in the system with the likes of initially BitMEX, and now Binance Futures, CME, OKEx, all these exchanges doing immense volume; the volume is heavily weighted on the derivates sides.
You'll notice that volatility and you'll notice the shapes change, and you can almost take a guess at how much leverage is in the system by seeing how choppy the price becomes. And, yeah, when you get this kind of liquidity failure when there are not enough buys and we've hit a liquidation point, this is the second time we've had this in barely over a year; the last one was COVID, the thing just plummeted. Before that was the 2018 bottom, the tail end of 2018; that thing plummeted like we'd never see before up to that point, like a sheer downward wall, cliff, and that was the first BitMEX liquidation; that was the first major derivative markets unwinding.
If you're going to play leverage, you have to know what you're doing. If you're going to do it as a new person participating, then you really need to position very small until you learn the game.
Peter McCormack: I was going to say, Willy, there must have been some pretty smart, experienced traders who still got hit pretty hard with this?
Willy Woo: Yeah, I know a few and they were liquidated also. They were also buying the dip. And also, remember this thing happened right in the morning in US time, so people were just waking up to this sell-down overnight, and I know some were trying to send more collateral into the exchanges to lower their liquidation levels. Some people got liquidated before that happened. I know some very sophisticated traders that were, yeah, the market took them unprepared for that kind of event. No one thought we would have a COVID-style crash right in the middle of a bull market.
Peter McCormack: Do you think it's unhealthy the amount of leverage we have in the system then?
Willy Woo: Yeah, I do.
Peter McCormack: Is there anything we can even do about it?
Willy Woo: I don't know, because we've got a lot of unregulated derivate exchanges. I don't know if that's the issue, but it's so easy for anyone to sign up, click and enjoy 100X-plus leverage. Binance were saying that 60% of traders use more than 20X leverage, so it's really fun and games; it's like a casino, right! And I do think it's unhealthy for the long-term picture of Bitcoin, the growth of that, in terms of just the sheer amount of volatility that's added into the market and the fear and the amount of people that are losing their shirts.
There's this other side of the story where these derivate markets are creating huge opportunities for traditional folk who want high yields and you can kind of do a market-neutral strategy where, if you're not interested in Bitcoin, you just want cash but you want to generate a 20%, 30%, even 80% return per year, which is unheard of when the cash-free rate on US dollars is, what, 2% or something in normal markets; it's so attractive and they come in here and they have to buy Bitcoin to participate to get that access. So, you kind of get this other effect where traditional markets are deploying money into Bitcoin to get access to that yield that's created by the demand for these derivate markets.
So, yeah, it's double-edged. I think, in terms of the long story of Bitcoin, where it's the currency for the people, it's not so good.
Peter McCormack: No, and that's what's bothering me, Willy. In some ways, I've been trolling Elon Musk, not that I thought he would ever reply. I mean, he replied to my thread, but I've been trolling him; I doubt he sees it. But the point being is that I've been out in El Salvador looking at the Bitcoin project out there, and I'm now in Guatemala looking at the Bitcoin project here, and there are things that people are trying to do with Bitcoin to help people. And, when we're at the whim of a single billionaire and people are panicking about that, I've realised a lot of people are in this for the gains, and don't get me wrong; I enjoy the gains too, of course I do.
But at the same time, if we're trying to build the hardest, best form of money in the world, being at the whim of single people, or fearing pissing off Elon Musk I don't think is good. I mean, I even tweeted this morning, "Please sell your coins". I think it would be better for the long-term strength of Bitcoin if he wasn't here, because he just seems to be causing too much of a problem. So many people leveraged up, so many people are worrying about their gains it's like, "Well, don't piss off the billionaires". Well, hold on, we're trying to create hard money here.
Willy Woo: Yeah, you know though, I'm kind of glad this happened. It's heart-breaking for some people who lost a lot of money, but in the long-term picture, first off you've got a billionaire that's gone AWOL and tweeting weird research that are actually lies, if you do the deep research on Bitcoin's energy use and the long-term effects of that. That's dropping the market. The one thing is, the more that happens, the less the market will respond to it.
The other thing that happened with this one in particular was, the people who were most scared and the reason why the markets dropped so much this time, was these guys who sold their coins, they were new participants; they have only held their coins a very short amount of time. Secondly, they were very high net worth individuals. So, they were very rich bitcoiners, really rich people full stop coming into Bitcoin, holding whale-sized quantities of Bitcoin, which creates a new concentration of wealth.
Now, what happened was, they were the ones that sold, so we've had the value that's been held by whales drop. And the people that have been buying has been small retail.
Peter McCormack: Good
Willy Woo: The growth of coins being held by below 1 Bitcoin in holdings has been climbing unperturbed and actually, the user count, as Elon was tweeting and as price was dropping, people were getting in, maybe from the publicity, but we got an uptick of users arriving first time as seen on the network and it kept climbing as the price was working downwards. So, the publicity got out there, maybe there were people on the sidelines thinking, "Well, it's run away, it's getting too expensive and now it's coming back" and they bought the fear and they bought the deep; and this was retail.
Peter McCormack: That's good then. Well, then I definitely hope he sells his whole stack and that gets distributed to retail. I would happily take dollar losses in my portfolio size to have a wider distribution of coins and less centralised influence over the price. And I'm a hypocrite. When Elon first came in, I was jumping up and down, "Oh, this is great; Tesla's on board, Elon's on board, this is great!" but actually, I now see it as a bit of a negative.
I mean, it's great when we have someone like Saylor, who's just a fucking great bitcoiner. He cares about it, keeps investing, puts out great information, does his research. When someone like Elon comes in and just disseminates bullshit, pumps Doge, it's just really fucking unhelpful to the hard work other people are doing. So, if you're right, that's cool.
Willy Woo: You kind of have a responsibility when you have 55 million followers to be not --
Peter McCormack: Not a dick!
Willy Woo: Yeah! It's almost like drunk tweeting. But that one looked very much like, "Yes, we want to ensure our chances here at Tesla to continue to get our carbon credit rebates to the tune of more than $1 billion per year, so we've got to present the right picture". The pumping the Dogecoin thing was a bit sickening whilst also sheer lies, wasn't it?
Peter McCormack: Well, dude, like the next day; so he puts out the energy FUD, then the next day he tweets out, what was it, "Speaking to Dogecoin devs". It's just, fuck off; just fuck off, mate. It's like Jack Mallers said in his tweet thread, he said, "Like the drunk girl at the party, and we're the ones cleaning up your puke", and I actually thought that was a really well thought-out point, because there are so many people that have been working on this for the last 12 years, some of the smartest people in the world, working to build this amazing decentralised network, solving really hard problems; and then he's just coming in just spouting bullshit.
The Dogecoin community, if you want to trade Dogecoin, fair enough, but let's not ever attempt to compare it to Bitcoin and say it's a competitor. It's just fucking frustrating and I'm really pissed at it, because I know how hard these people work, all over the world, people working so hard to try and deliver this and they're just having to counter his bullshit and waste time.
I mean, I've had texts from people saying, "Should I buy Doge?" and it's like, "Of course you fucking shouldn't", but you don't say that. You have to get on the phone, you have to explain to them what decentralisation is, what Doge is, what Bitcoin is and you're just wasting time that could be spent doing other things; so, it really pisses me off.
Willy Woo: That's right. One of the things that I was reminded by, based on the energy FUD tweet, "Fossil fuel use; we need to do something more energy efficient", there's very little understanding of how important it is to get a very fair and wide distribution of coins in the most decentralised way possible. There is no way that I've seen -- correct me if anyone out there has figured out how to distribute coins widely and fairly without a trusted third party that gets to hand those coins out. The path that Bitcoin's design has chosen is that you've got to swap energy to get the coin, and it's been distributing over 12 years.
Now, sure, there's a shortcut you can do. You can do a very energy-efficient network, but that network means that you're doing proof of stake. You've got a team of developers who now own all the coins and you've got to figure out how to spread that evenly to what will be 1 billion people in the next four years, is the current rate for bitcoiners; it will take Bitcoin 16 years to distribute widely to 1 billion people. How are you going to do this when you've got one project with a team there essentially holding the coin?
So, yeah, and if you were to think -- I think Michael Saylor put out a very good piece on the seven layers of how --
Peter McCormack: It was excellent.
Willy Woo: That was excellent, on how this whole system has layers and layers of decentralisation in it, and that's all to protect the holders of Bitcoin from one ruler that dictates what's going to change about this monetary asset. I'll leave it there, but yeah, I think there's still a lot of education to be done. I note that the ones that bought into the FUD were most likely these whales that saw a, what was it; they saw maybe a 2X to 5X of easy profit, which is very, very unheard of in traditional markets without leverage, and I think that was enough to scare them out and take the profit.
We're now in a situation where there's no more profit on the table transacting between the sellers and the buyers, so anyone selling right now, well not anyone, but the market in general is selling at a loss. So, that's going to be really hard to sustain, given all the key market macro indicators are bullish. We've got an uptick of new users, they don't care, they're coming on in; they like buying Bitcoin cheap. The valuation I'm reading right now around the $55,000 mark, based on what kind of volume going through the network, people buying this. What else?
The NVT ratio, which is a nice macro market indicator, says this isn't a buy zone. There's an immense amount of activity in the network between investors compared to the valuation. We haven't seen any kind of mania. We dumped down from a level that was highly organic, no speculative premium. 2017 top, for example, we were, I think, 3.8% higher than the organic valuation, so this is not a mania phase and then the end of the bear market. This is just the middle of the bull market, derivatives unwind, so we've got a lot of cheap coins sitting here in the market. I think it will take a bit of time to recover, just from the sheer amount of coins that we dumped out; it will take time to reaccumulate. But I think ultimately, if you look at the network health, this is a good thing.
Peter McCormack: So, it's not the end of the bull market?
Willy Woo: No, not at all. It might put -- let me have a look. It's too early to say, but the model I use for the market top is based on the price trajectory and it's slowed the rise to the top for that model, so I'll have to have a look. Yeah, it's too early to tell. It's predicated on what happens in the next quarters of the bull market, but it's going above $100,000; $200,000 is looking confident. It would need to go up very quickly for us to reach above $300,000.
Peter McCormack: So, last time we spoke, I think you said we were looking perhaps at $300,000 at the top. Have you recalibrated down from that?
Willy Woo: Yeah, we were on a trajectory of $300,000 to $400,000. Right now, I'm just looking at ball-parking at $200,000 to $400,000. I need to see how this price gets absorbed. I want to see what happens in the weeks to come, but it's definitely slow.
Peter McCormack: So, has this affected you in terms of your trading significantly then; because energy-wise, I can tell your energy is different from normal, Willy? So, you're saying that, but are you saying it with caution?
Willy Woo: No, I'm just zenned out a bit. I had a retreat two weeks ago, a nine-day retreat, so I'm less on market adrenaline right now, because I've been on retreat and doing a lot more meditation; that's all. That's personal; it's nothing to do with the market! I'm not trading right now, I've got a baby due in a few weeks. I'm trying to shed the adrenaline of the market so that I can be a bit more present for family life to come. So, that's all!
Peter McCormack: So, you're just all zen?!
Willy Woo: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: So, in terms of reading the market right now, do you think this is just going to put us in a longer-ranging accumulation phase as people try and figure out what's happening?
Willy Woo: Yeah, I think we're going to have some sort of shape on the price chart like COVID put. We'll recover; we've got to go sideways; the coins that we dumped, they'll need to be reaccumulated by longer-term holders; and then, yeah, it will take a bit of time. I don't think it's going to happen next week; it might take a month or two, now we've got a lot more traditional guys in the markets. Summer in the northern hemisphere tends to be a bit soft amongst traditional traders, summer holidays; so, maybe that will take a bit of time until that's finished.
But, it's really too early for me to get a picture of how quickly this thing's recovering. It is recovering. We saw immense peaks and flows out of the exchanges as we were going into the $40,000 range and a lot of coins coming off; so, very bullish on the exchange flows again. And, we had a reversal in what I called "the Rick Astley indicator". As Elon tweeted, we saw strong movements of coins from strong hands to weak hands, meaning those previously strong hands became weak hands. So again, like those guys that bought probably below $40,000 in the bucket loads, held Bitcoins until now; that's my guess.
But, we had very much this movement going from strong hands to weak hands and that's just peaked and the momentum's starting to swing back to coins moving back to strong hands. The last time I saw a peak of this magnitude was the bottom of the COVID crash. It forms a peak, it was a very exaggerated movement of strong hands getting freaked out and selling, and that's subsiding now. And the last time that happened at that scale was the bottom of the COVID crash.
The time before, which was also of that scale, was the bottom of the dead cat bounce in 2018. Really early in 2018, after the $20,000 top, everyone sold down. We crashed from $20,000 to effectively $7,000 and then we bounced back up. So, those were the two prior times I saw the Rick Astley indicator show that kind of movement between strong and weak hands and then revert. So, that gives me another fuel for where this recovery is. A lot of indicators are saying we're recovering.
The SOPR indicator, showing what kind of profit the coins are carrying moving between investors is, everyone that's been transacting now, the sellers are moving their coins out, selling for a loss, and that doesn't happen very much in a bull market and no indicator right now is saying we're in a bear market. So, I'm pretty sure, for all these on-chain metrics, that the coins are moving back into strong hodl, like smarter retail than new-to-crypto whales!
Peter McCormack: I like that idea. Do you know, I like that idea of these new whales capitulating themselves and panicking, because I guess a lot of them are coming in because they've seen the news, seen the hype, they've bought in, they've panicked and they've redistributed those to new retail strong hands. I think that itself is bullish; that wouldn't have crossed my mind, so that's a really good thing to hear. And, that redistribution of coins hopefully would lead to less volatility long term, but with this derivative stuff, it's not happening; but it still feels like a good scenario.
Willy Woo: You can understand, right?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, I get it.
Willy Woo: You're like, "Okay, I'm in it to maybe $10 million, $20 million", and BlackRock's CEO or whatever, Chief Investment Officer is, "Yes, we believe Bitcoin is a valid investment", you know, one after the other various respected fund managers say, "Yes, Bitcoin is in". "Oh, I don't have Bitcoins; let's buy $1 million shot of it and get an allocation for my portfolio", not knowing exactly what you're buying necessarily, maybe asking a few friends. And then there's Bloomberg spouting off a whole lot of things, including the energy use, it's too volatile, the holdings are too concentrated, constant FUD by certain media outlets.
Then suddenly, Elon Musk tweets, "Yeah, the fossil fuel's an issue. We're not going to accept it until it's improved", and he's validating this bullshit FUD, which has been debugged for years within Bitcoin, if you'd done the research. But, you're going to understand that like, "Well, I've just had a 2X to 4X, 5X on this ride" and suddenly the so-called smartest person in the world, or one of the richest and smartest engineering minds in the world is validating some of this FUD; I guess I could see that happening.
Peter McCormack: And it wouldn't be a bull market without hearing about China banning Bitcoin again?
Willy Woo: Yeah, that was very timely, wasn't it?! I wonder if that was pushed out by the Chinese orchestrating a long squeeze to dump the price.
Peter McCormack: Interesting times, Willy, interesting times. So, there's a couple of things you mentioned; I want to give people some kind of reminders. You talked about the NVT; can you just remind people what that is?
Willy Woo: Okay, so NVT stands for Network Value to Transaction ratio. Chris Burniske named it for me. So essentially what you've got is, it's equivalent of a price/earnings ratio that you see in stocks. So with that you've got, how much earnings are the company making; then you do the ratio with its valuation. So, is it doing a lot of earnings for the amount that the company's valued at? Then, that's a low p/e ratio, so it's probably undervalued.
Bitcoin's not a company, right; it's a decentralised network. So, all we've got is the network activity and this one uses volume. This one uses the volume that's going through the network; and, when I say volume, I mean actual coin changing hands between two separate participants. That means that a new investor just came in to buy those coins. So, we're looking at the investment activity that's happening with underlying the network.
If you see very high investment activity, high volume and it's coming in, a lot of people are interested, there are a lot of coins changing hands, that's a sign of a very fervent, active network of investors buying into this asset; and so it should track to a higher valuation. You can just lay up the volume on the network and chart that over time. And you can lay up the market cap with the network. You'll notice the two are highly correlated; they sit on top of each other. And there are times when the network value, the market cap, drops below the shape of the transaction volume; and those are the times when it's undervalued.
So, what NVT is, it just runs a ratio of the two and you've got your price/earnings. You've got these swings between undervaluation, like we have now, where there's high activity and high investment volume for a very cheap market valuation. So, using that, you can kind of map that ratio to what price should be, which is what I call the "NVT price". You map that price earnings and you look at where it should be on price and the current price is just a shade below $55,000.
So, that's the organic valuation that investors are supporting right now; $55,000. We are currently low $40,000s, so we were over 20% undervalued not long ago. That's going to close. It's not under NVT price very long in a bull market. The last time we were below was at the wick-down during COVID. And the last time before that was the dead cat bounce, where it went down to $7,000 after the $20,000 in early 2017. Those are the only two times that we were below that value. So, keep coins right now; cheap coins!
Peter McCormack: Bitcoin is cheap. Listen, get in! What about the SOPR; you mentioned SOPR, the S-O-P-R?
Willy Woo: Yeah, so SOPR. SOPR is what we call Spent Output Profit Ratio; Renato, who created that metric, said it for what it technically is. If I was to put layman terms on it, it's essentially the profit taking that's happening on the coins moving between investors. So, if I was to sit there and look, in a day, all the volume of coins that moved hands, I'm going to calculate the sellers and calculate all of their profits. Some of them will be at negative profits, losses. I'm going to sum that all up and do essentially a ratio.
You're doing a ratio between when the bought and sold and when it hits 1.0, obviously they're selling at breakeven. If it breaks below 1.0, they're selling at a loss. If it's above 1.0, of course they bought early enough that it's at profit. So, typically what you see in a bull market is the SOPR rises. Anyone who's selling up coins must have bought lower, because the price is rising. So generally, when we get pullbacks, the price is coming down lower and lower and lower and starting to meet the price they bought at previously.
So essentially, what you find is that as the price starts dropping, people are going to sell their coins and take money off the table and get profit. They'll take the profit while it's still on the table, but once it hits their 1.0 line and they're at breakeven, very few people in a bull market are willing to sell their coins at a loss. So typically, when you hit that 1.0 line, a full SOPR reset, that is when we get a bounce. We hit that yesterday on the one-week moving average, so the one week is actually a nice moving average on SOPR that, if you look at 2017, we hit that on every bottom of the dip correction on that 2017 runup very, very nicely.
We've hit that with it below it, so people are actually selling at a loss at that heightened amount. We're in recovery, so I don't think that's going to be sustained for very long. So, yeah, we're in a SOPR-dip buying season right now. I notice some people use the daily SOPR, so not the one-week moving average and that's a little too fast reacting to be sure. Anyone buying SOPR on the one day, the fast-reacting one, could be entering a little bit too early. But on the one-week, that's very reliable. So, we'll hit that; we're good.
Peter McCormack: It's kind of a historic 48 hours that we've been through therefore. I think we'll be looking back and remembering it as a really distinct time in Bitcoin?
Willy Woo: Yeah, what is it, the sixth deepest drop drawdown in Bitcoin history? Yeah, you know what; this will be one that people remember, because that fourth year in a bull market, it's the one that grabs, it's a crowd pleaser, it's the one that grabs all the attention; that's when everyone piles in for the first time and becomes holders of Bitcoin. So, this will be the one that people remember, because we've never had one of these liquidity crunches in that fourth one year in four. This time we did.
You could say 2013, we had something like this, right? We had near 90% pullback. But that was really early; very few people were involved with that. There were no derivatives. They were all early libertarians, early tech cypherpunky people, Silk Roady people. This is now getting pretty mainstream. What is it? 22% of the US was a survey that came out, within America, that hold Bitcoin. So, mainstream public just got exposed to a liquidity crunch. So, I think this will be running, but for a very long time.
Peter McCormack: All right, man. Well, listen, we should try and conclude this out with some positive signs. What are you looking at now, Willy; what's key on your mind; what are you keeping an eye on?
Willy Woo: Really just an eye on the recovery, just the rate of the recovery. I'm really heartened by retail buying this dip. I actually frame this as really healthy. I know we're all very emotionally strung out right now because of this dip. Maybe a few traders got the other side of it and they're euphoric. But the long-term picture for Bitcoin is we have a shake-out. These shake-outs are very, very healthy, because the weak hands get shaken out, the strong holders buy, we get further distribution; so, yeah, it's a good thing and we've got cheap coins!
Peter McCormack: We've got cheap coins in the market. Well, just for anyone listening, I'm in Guatemala, Willy's on the other side of the planet, we've got limited band width, I think we've got a delay, I think there's a delay between us; so, I think we'll keep this show slightly shorter than normal. We've covered the main points. Hopefully, people will listen to this, they'll be less worried now, because there are certainly people saying, "Is it going to go to $20,000?" which I don't believe it will. So hopefully, we reassured some people. I like the fact that you see this as positive. If this is seeing a distribution to retail, I'm happy.
Willy Woo: Yeah, it doesn't look like it, but on the long-term picture, it is very, very healthy and positive and these shake-outs happen, and it's not the first time we've had a retrace like this. This is what; the sixth one. So, we'll leave it at that.
Peter McCormack: All right, Willy. Well, look, always good to talk to you; business as usual; back to stacking; hodling hard. Appreciate you, man.
Willy Woo: Likewise.
Peter McCormack: Take care and I'll speak to you in a month.
Willy Woo: Sounds good. Bye.
