WBD344 Audio Transcription
All In on Bitcoin with Sean Culkin
Interview date: Wednesday 5th May
Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Sean Culkin. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.
In this interview, we discuss his journey to the NFL, taking his entire $920K salary in bitcoin and where his conviction comes from.
“Bitcoin is hope, and it is traveling, and people are becoming aware of it…I’m ready to do this and I don’t really view this as a risky thing.”
— Sean Culkin
Interview Transcription
Peter McCormack: Sean, how are you doing, brother?
Sean Culkin: Peter, I'm doing well, man. How are you?
Peter McCormack: I'm doing good, man. Welcome to my El Salvadorian studio here. Usually people are in my little office in Bedford; have you heard of Bedford; do you know Bedford, Massachusetts?!
Sean Culkin: I don't know much. I'm curious; you'll have to tell me more
Peter McCormack: It's the Bitcoin mecca of the world; it's the centre of Bitcoin media in the world.
Sean Culkin: Really?
Peter McCormack: It's not far from London. You don't know it?
Sean Culkin: No, I've heard of it, I just don't know much. I've heard of Miami and how that's been the new Silicon Valley of Bitcoin, but obviously that's just in America.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, Miami copied Bedford, it's trying to be like Bedford. But, we started this before Miami; we were owning this. What the fuck am I talking about?! Hey, listen, where I grew up, I grew up in this shit little place. Bedford's a shit town, but I grew up in a shit suburb called Kempston and we actually, at one point, this weird thing happened. I was like, I don't know, dude, how old are you?
Sean Culkin: I'm 27, man, I'm young.
Peter McCormack: You're a baby. All right, well listen, definitely before you were born, because I was about 10 and I'm 42, we had these rugby posts appear on this field near where I live where all the kids play football and golf and shit, and these rugby posts appeared. We were like "We're going to get a rugby team!" We actually ended up getting an American Football team where I live in Kempston.
Sean Culkin: Really?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, so I used to go down and watch it. I was like, "What the fuck's this game?" It's your game, man.
Sean Culkin: Can you go out there and play; is it open?
Peter McCormack: Who, me?
Sean Culkin: Yeah?
Peter McCormack: No, not me.
Sean Culkin: Do you play sports?
Peter McCormack: I used to before I got old as shit. I used to play -- do you know what; I'm not going to say your word, I'm just going to say football. I'm not going to say fucking "soccer", because that pisses me off.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, football!
Peter McCormack: It's football.
Sean Culkin: Football; it's football.
Peter McCormack: Football and American football. Okay, listen, I'm going to tell you everything I know about your football, your egg-chasing version of football.
Sean Culkin: Okay.
Peter McCormack: When I was a kid, we used to get, on Channel 4, we used to get one game a week, one programme a week, and the 49ers were the big team, so I started supporting them. That was back when it was Jerry Rice was wide receiver.
Sean Culkin: Legend.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. It was Steve Young, quarterback. It was just after -- was it Joe Montana who was before him?
Sean Culkin: Oh, man, I'm going to date myself. I'm young, man. I don't know; I don't want to mis-speak. I don't know. I don't know who the quarterback was. I know they're legends, I know that's good ball to watch, hell of a playmaker there.
Peter McCormack: You're making me feel old now. Fucked up when I know more than you about these legends. People are going to say, "No, it's not Joe Montana; it's this dude". Anyway, that was it, that was my team, 49ers were my team; they won the Super Bowl and then they didn't do shit for the rest of the time I've watched them; they haven't done shit.
Sean Culkin: Did you remain loyal?
Peter McCormack: Yeah, but do you know what I think? I think when Raiders go to Vegas, that's going to be my team.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, that's crazy, that whole move with the increase in sports betting too should be interesting. I mean, gosh, when the pandemic slows down, I think that's going to be popping!
Peter McCormack: If you get a chance to play for the Raiders in Vegas, you'd take that, right?
Sean Culkin: You going to be there?
Peter McCormack: God, man, my son wants to go; he's similar to your age. Fuck, I'm old. He's like, "Dad, we've got to go. Have you seen the stadium?" He said, "We've got to go", and I'm like, "Yeah, I want to go, man, I want to go". Listen, tell me a bit about you. I know you're a tight end; I don't know what the fuck that means.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, so we've got to go from the basics?
Peter McCormack: Is it defensive or is it both? Is it offensive, defensive; is it both?
Sean Culkin: No, so it is offensive. It's kind of a mixture of wide receiver, so Jerry Rice, and then a lineman, one of the bigger guys, you know, this hand in the dirt block in every single play. So, it's a very fun, unique and versatile position, because you have to be fast enough to get open and create separation against defenders that are very athletic and fast and at the same time, have to put your hand in the dirt, you know, 3rd and 1, and move the guy back six inches and he's 6-5, 300; both tight ends are 6-5, 250. So you've got to be a master of your craft.
You have to have technique; you have to really hone in on the physics of moving mass, right; hands on side, low man always wins leverage; because if you just come off the ball hands on side, you're not going to be able to move guys that are significantly bigger than you. So, it's a fun position, it's challenging, but I love it, man.
Peter McCormack: How big are you?
Sean Culkin: So, I'm 6-5, 255.
Peter McCormack: Jesus Christ. I'm 5'9, 210!
Sean Culkin: I'd be okay moving you, probably, off the ball, pretty easily!
Peter McCormack: You fucking reckon?
Sean Culkin: I think so. I mean, I think we should get together; put a line in the dirt; whistle the snap and see what happens.
Peter McCormack: I'm fucking quick, man; I'm quick. I think you look one way, I'll look the other and I'll be past you. Or, am I meant to stop you?
Sean Culkin: It depends. Are you more defensive or offensive?
Peter McCormack: I'm fucking glory, man.
Sean Culkin: You're glory? Okay. No, it will be fun. It's a fun sport, man, just being physical and flying around, making plays. I mean, it's something I've played since I was in 5th grade. I was actually more of a basketball guy growing up. Everybody in my home town was actually shocked to hear me announce that I was going to Missouri for football, because basketball was just my passion; that's where I spent all my time. I was travelling every single weekend.
I was on the Adidas team for the State of Florida and realised I wasn't going to be 6-11 or 7 foot. I topped out at 6-5 and football was more conducive actually for my height, because on my travel team, and we had I think over 15 or 20 guys sign D1, I was the shortest player on the team.
Peter McCormack: Jesus!
Sean Culkin: Yeah, so our starting line-up -- I mean, maybe, I think our point guard was 6-3, so I had him beat by a little bit. But, I mean, we were just 6-5, 6-8.
Peter McCormack: That's funny, being 6-5 and feeling short!
Sean Culkin: Yeah, it's crazy. You should see the game of basketball now. You're 6-5; you're a point guard. If you're 6-8, 6-9, 6-11, that's how tall you've got to be to be in the paint. So, switched to football, started to get a lot more interest and kind of had that mentality anyway to be physical and lift weights, put on weight. College coaches were already telling me I was big enough and I wanted to get bigger and stronger and faster and just felt like there was a good overlap from playing basketball to the tight end position; and I had success in that in high school, college and eventually, the NFL.
So, it's a sport that I'm continuing to learn and get better and challenge myself every day. And, I'm blessed to still be playing the game, man.
Peter McCormack: Do you know what; I'll tell you what I like about your football, and I really like about it, because I spend a lot of time in the US, right. There's no country in the world I've travelled to more; I've been, like, 60 times, travelled all over. But, I love the way, whatever level a team is, whether it's a college team or a school team or whatever, the whole town comes out for them and everyone cares about their team. It's like that focal point for the town or whatever. I really like that. My son had me watching that, is it Last Chance U?
Sean Culkin: Yeah, very inspiring stories watching that documentary. I've seen it. It's actually, one of my team mates came from the college from Last Chance U, from the Ravens this past year; so, it's kind of cool to see him.
Peter McCormack: Were you one of a number of people who just played football and did well at school and then college; or, be honest, did you always know, "I'm going to be in the NFL", did you know?
Sean Culkin: When I decided football would be my sport, not basketball, yes; I kind of adopted that mentality very quickly. I knew that I had raw ability and the work ethic and the mentality to just continue to get 1% better every day, and I wouldn't settle for anything other than going to NFL. Obviously, I'm pretty pragmatic. During my collegiate career, I didn't have this glamorous career just scoring all these touchdowns, so many yards, everybody just, "He's gone to the NFL!"
I had three different offence coordinators, two head coaches, three or four different position coaches in the span of four years, so that was tough to find my role on a consistent year over year. So, I was just grinding actually, I was just a grinder. I just did the right things, I was accountable, I was reliable, I had this relentless work ethic and just knew the opportunity would come and you either capitalise on it or you don't and there's your opportunity that came and went.
So, being undrafted, because I was undrafted, that's difficult. Your margin of error's very low; you might have one, two, three different opportunities to really make a name for yourself so coaches and scouts can give you a proper chance. Where some guys come in first, second, third round; they have a year, two, maybe three to really prove themselves. So, I definitely have been under the mentality that preparation will allow me to be successful when those opportunities come and rise to the occasion and do your thing, and that's kind of how I am going into year 5 right now.
Peter McCormack: Help me understand that, because I know what the draft is, but when it's coming around, how does it work; how do you find out whether you are going to be drafted and if you're not, what happens next, because I'm sure there are a lot of people who are undrafted who don't get a contract, they don't get an opportunity? What are the differences? Are there people who are nearly drafted? For me, how does someone like me understand this?
Sean Culkin: So, it's crazy, honestly man, because everyone is being told by their agents that they're going to get drafted and everyone is thinking that no matter what, worst case scenario, I'll go in the fifth or sixth or for seven rounds total. And, when that third day comes and you're in the middle of the sixth, you start to get this terrible feeling, "Man, I don't think I'm getting my name called on TV", and obviously in the seventh round, teams will start calling you.
That's the worst part. Teams will call you and you think it's them saying, "Hey, we're going to select you in this round", and it's them saying, "Hey, if you're still available after the draft, we want you bad, man". So, that's kind of a signal too that maybe you're not going to get drafted.
So for me, I knew that there's a chance I would go undrafted; I was projected fifth to seventh, but also had some teams lined up that if I didn't get picked, these are probably my top. And because I was in that situation where I might have been drafted, I might have not, I had a lot of interest. So some guys, like you said, might not hear their name called and might not even get a call for an undrafted contract; or maybe they get a try-out for minicamp and pretty much just a camp body.
So for me, I had quite a bit of interest, so it was analogous to my recruiting experience in high school condensed in an hour. So, teams need to know they're trying to fill that spot, those roster spots, so teams are saying, "Hey, we want you" and then another team's calling. So I have two phones, my agent has one, my coach is in town, he has one and we're all just debating what's the best opportunity to make a team.
For me, I chose the Chargers for the same reason why I picked Missouri. I just felt I was valued there. I felt they were the only team that flew me out for a visit, and you can only do that for 25 prospects, and they were the only team to fly to Columbia, Missouri for a private workout. So for me, that meant a lot to me. So, I went up to sunny San Diego, California, man; never, ever been to Cali!
Peter McCormack: Nice, man.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, it was incredible. It was a great experience; I did three years there and was having a really good third year and then, the middle of the 2019 season, I tore my Achilles, so that was a big setback.
Peter McCormack: Oh, man!
Sean Culkin: Yeah, that's a tough one, man. I mean years back, that could have been a career-ender. That and the ACL are the two injuries that you really hate to see, but it made me stronger. I learned a lot, man, holy cow, in that year of rehab. It really tested me mentally and I have gratitude and I'm thankful for it now, because I'm stronger. But yeah, man, it was a tough one.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, man, I bet. Oh, God! Who was your team as a kid; who did you support?
Sean Culkin: I was a Bucs fan, so I grew up in Clearwater Florida, Indian Rocks Beach, which is 30 minutes south from Tampa; so, I was a big Bucs fan. I remember Tony Gundy and John Gruden then coming in and taking the team to the Super Bowl. They had a lot of playmakers too; that team was really special. But, when it comes to picking -- the funny thing was, when it came, my final two was either the Chargers or the Bucs and my parents knew this and they were celebrating like, "Yes, he's coming back home!" kind of just assumed that would be the case and I went to my room by myself and just spent ten minutes to reflect and came out and said, "Guys, I'm going to San Diego". They were super supportive.
Peter McCormack: I've been up near Tampa.
Sean Culkin: Okay, what part?
Peter McCormack: I spent the day up in St Pete's.
Sean Culkin: St Pete's, yeah, so St Pete's, 25 minutes from my home town. You a beach guy?
Peter McCormack: No, I'm from England, the beaches are shit; it's always raining! I went up there; I'll tell you where I went up St Pete's. I took my kids to Disneyland. We got bored, so I took them up to St Pete's, because there's a Dali museum.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I've been there.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, it's cool, man. Wow, so you had to turn round to your dad and say, "I'm not going to play for the Bucs, I'm going to go out to California and play for San Diego"? Did he come out for your first game anyway?
Sean Culkin: Yeah, oh yeah. They came out for, I think, my last pre-season game and that was at least the first time being in California with me, so that was cool. Usually, you have a day off after the game, so we kind of hung out and went to the beach and that was actually in the year of transition from San Diego to LA. So, when I first signed, we have off-season in San Diego and then, when we showed up to report for camp, we were actually in Costa Mesa in Orange County, but technically LA.
Peter McCormack: Well listen, I know we've got to talk about Bitcoin, but my producer told me you're a guitar player and I want to know about that first.
Sean Culkin: Oh, yeah. So actually, I played piano; that was my first instrument I learned when I was in first grade, I think, was when my parents started taking me to lessons. And then in sixth grade, I think my brother bought a guitar and tried for a couple of weeks or a month and then just kind of left it in the corner; and I went and saw it and just picked it up and taught myself and actually created a band in sixth grade. Oh, yeah, serious! We had a band, me and the boys. We played at two birthday parties; we were a big deal for that! We had a waiting list, we couldn't guarantee that we would appear or show up, but it was two songs!
Peter McCormack: Sixth grade, what's that; is that like 12 years old?
Sean Culkin: 12 years old, yeah.
Peter McCormack: 12 years old, dude. What kind of shit were you playing?
Sean Culkin: Dude, Mentallo by Switchfoot and I think it went, "Take me home when September ends"; I think that's a song by Green Day? Yeah. But, we didn't even have the down-tro; we'd just kind of fizzle out and just take the guitars off and say, "Intermission" go in the pool, hang out and then come back and start the next song; and that was the performance!
Peter McCormack: So you're a punk, man; you're a punk rocker?
Sean Culkin: Hardcore punk rocker at the time.
Peter McCormack: Are you actually a hardcore punk rocker?
Sean Culkin: I have a lot of interests. I like all music. At one point I was. I started listening to old-school classic rock and then it shifted to punk rock. I went to a couple of concerts.
Peter McCormack: Like who?
Sean Culkin: It was in Tampa; it was an event where they had over 100 bands there. I can't even remember the name of the concert.
Peter McCormack: Oh, was it like Warped Tour or something?
Sean Culkin: Warped Tour, yes; I was at Warped Tour. I would go there every year.
Peter McCormack: Warped Tour.
Sean Culkin: Warped Tour, yeah. I try to stay away from mosh pits though! I was young. Even though I was big for my age, I probably could have gone in there and held my own, but I knew better!
Peter McCormack: The windmill!
Sean Culkin: Yeah, right? It's crazy. Ambulance would be coming in and --
Peter McCormack: Fuck your shoes, man, come on! We've got a guest.
Sean Culkin: You've got a guest?
Peter McCormack: We've got a guest, man!
Sean Culkin: What's up, Jack, how are we doing, man?! Dude, what's up, bro, how are we doing?!
Peter McCormack: We're talking about Warped Tour. Oh, you can't hear, because I've got fucking headphones on! Take a headphone.
Sean Culkin: Jack, what's up, bro?
Jack Mallers: What's up, man, how are you, buddy?
Sean Culkin: Oh, I'm great, man, I'm great. Good to see you.
Jack Mallers: Good to see you too.
Sean Culkin: We were just talking about Warped Tour.
Jack Mallers: I don't even know what that means. But, hey, I know I've been a little busy off the grid, but congratulations, man. I'm super proud of you and I'm really proud that I played a part in what you accomplished. You accomplished something huge and I'm happy for you and the family and happy to play a role, so congrats, dude.
Sean Culkin: Man, I appreciate that for real. That was a special day, crazy week, and I'm excited just to keep this thing going. But, super grateful for just you and who you are as a person right now. It was a really special day and I appreciate your part in that.
Jack Mallers: Yeah, you're just getting started, man, I believe that. I got a chance to have a pretty awesome phone call with you and I wholeheartedly am very bullish, Sean, just as a man and so, yeah, keep it up, dude; you've got my full support absolutely.
Sean Culkin: Jack, you're the man, man; I appreciate you, bro.
Peter McCormack: How ridiculous is this, man?
Sean Culkin: Crazy, and you guys are in El Salvador right now? I'm over here in LA just talking. It's technology, man, it's cool; it's a cool moment. What have you guys got going on over there?
Peter McCormack: Well, once this is done, I'm going to get Jack drunk, find out all his secrets, get him to make me a shareholder in Strike, take all his money, all his ideas.
Jack Mallers: Sean, I'm like 5-8, 150, so I'm that dude after four White Claws, you're like, "Bro, you're as drunk as all the chicks, man! Figure it out!"
Sean Culkin: White Claws are sneaky, man, they're sneaky!
Jack Mallers: Dude, no kidding, but hopefully he doesn't bully on me too much.
Peter McCormack: I hear about all this from Twitter people talking about White Claws; what the fuck are White Claws?
Jack Mallers: What's the technical term; the Hard Seltzer?
Sean Culkin: Hard Seltzer. Peter, you've never had a White Claw?
Peter McCormack: No, I just see people talking about White Claw on Twitter all the time. And in my mind, I think it's like an alcoholic version of -- what's the really shitty low-sugar soda that everyone drinks; cans of soda? It's basically soda water with a mild taste of a fruit.
Sean Culkin: La Croix?
Peter McCormack: Yeah. Is it like alcoholic La Croix?
Sean Culkin: Pretty much.
Jack Mallers: I actually think it tastes better than La Croix.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I think so too, yeah.
Jack Mallers: But yeah, from a product standpoint, it was attempting to accomplish the problem that girls want to drink, but also want to reduce calorie consumption and also aren't infatuated with the concept that beer actually tastes like shit, but we're going to find a way to enjoy it like a man. And there was a huge market to deliver a fruity good that was low in calorie and it's still got a tiny little white girl drunk; and that was the problem they initially tried to solve. Little did they know that I fucking hammer those things!
Peter McCormack: Do you drink, Sean? You look like a Whiskey drinker, man.
Sean Culkin: I do like Whiskey.
Peter McCormack: I knew you would, man.
Sean Culkin: My girlfriend, Zuri, has got me on the wine train, man. I just crush red wine. I love -- yeah, I saw you had a glass.
Peter McCormack: I do.
Sean Culkin: Cheers, man.
Peter McCormack: But, you don't drink the shitty American red wine, do you?
Sean Culkin: California reds. California has got some good wine. I think we're actually making a trip to the Napa before the season starts, so I'm excited about that.
Peter McCormack: You need some of the Italian or French wine; you're still drinking that American shit. I love America; I think America's brilliant at everything apart from red wine.
Sean Culkin: The red wine's terrible? Okay, Italian wine then, add it to the list.
Peter McCormack: A Barolo or a Montepulciano; I'll take you out for that stuff. So, listen, tell me about Sean?
Jack Mallers: Just holistically?
Peter McCormack: Yeah.
Jack Mallers: Well, so I don't know, Sean, what you've shared and what you want to share.
Peter McCormack: Well, I'm cussing him from a distance because he's a big dude; I don't think I'd do him.
Jack Mallers: No, the phone call I had with Sean was super special, learning about his family history, what drives him, motivates him. His story, a lot of the adversity, the fact that a lot of the media was on the receiving end of just some NFL player that made, what seems to be, an illiterate financial decision, couldn't be more wrong. Not only is it an accurate and forward-thinking financial decision, but the adversity that this guy's gone through and what was supportive of his decision and the journey that led him there I think is fascinating. I think it's a story worth telling.
I'm telling you, I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's arse. This is a stand-up guy, who I am proud to be supporting in an effort to represent humanity in a better light, I think. You're talking about a dude who plays for a boss who enjoys the title of an "owner". I mean, that's like slave language. And these guys -- what CEO of a company, developer of any business, refers to themselves as an owner publicly and enforces that their employees define them as such?
I mean, you established a sense of independence for the right reasons; he has everything correct; he thinks about things the correct way; and I evaluate Sean as just a stand-up dude. I don't know; I'm happy to be associated with the guy's story and I think he's just getting started, based on what I know. I'm being dead serious too.
Peter McCormack: Sean, you don't need to cuss out your boss if he's still writing you cheques.
Jack Mallers: No, that's my job. But that's stupid, man. And, Sean, I'm trying to speak for him, because I know there are a lot of things that go on in these athletes' heads. And yeah, I think Sean is an impressive guy. And the thing of all the people that could do what Sean did, it says a lot about him being the first and he should get credit for that.
Peter McCormack: Right, Sean, let's talk about this, because we hear about people getting involved in Bitcoin; they discover it; they maybe buy a few thousand dollars, maybe 2% of their net worth, 5%; and you just bowl in, balls deep and go, "Fuck this, I'm going to put 100% of my -- it's a rounding error; it's a $1 million salary". You just went, "Fuck it, I'm putting the whole thing in", right?
Sean Culkin: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: How do you do that; how do you come in and -- I've not heard of you and then you come in, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way; I'm just British so I know of, like, three sportsmen in America. But you come in and you're, "Fuck this", balls deep, "my whole salary's going into Bitcoin". How do you get to that point, and it's a big question, because I'm basically asking you to tell me how you discovered Bitcoin and then you went, "I'm going to put all my salary in"; how does that happen?
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I mean there are two questions there, right? It's, how did I come to the decision to go all in; and then how did I just discover Bitcoin? Going all in, just through the education and going down the rabbit hole and obtaining this level of conviction that I had, weeks out I had to ask myself what would bring me more regret; not doing this and seeing Bitcoin rise as I suspect; or doing this and being wrong and losing a significant amount of money?
That answer was so clear to me, because of just where I see this going and the opportunity to just do my part in just reassuring people that -- it's easy to have fear and FUD, right, like just scare them out of it, have them questioning themselves, having doubt. And, I'm late to the game compared to you guys, but I look at this opportunity to reassure people that Bitcoin is hope and it is travelling and people are becoming aware of it and at least personally, through my research, I'm ready to do this and I don't really view it as a risky thing; I really don't. The more I think about it, the more rational it was to me.
But, when it came to looking at Bitcoin, I think it was very clear to me that we are going to a new system, and I think we're going to a digitised financial system and everything is going to be digitised and bitcoinisation, right, if that's even a word, and just other assets and the future of crypto; and I think we're going to see that happen at a rapid pace over the next decade.
The way I see it, my traditional portfolio of stocks, fixed income and cash, is the hedge; Bitcoin is no longer the hedge. It took me a while to get there, but that's how I see it going forwards. My hedge is what I already have. I want to be a part of the future and I think that's where we're going.
Peter McCormack: Take me back to when you first head about Bitcoin and then, how long did it take you to go from -- because a lot of us, we hear, "What the fuck? This is some made-up bullshit; it doesn't mean anything" and then we go through the process and maybe we hear about it a couple of times, or we buy some Bitcoin, whatever; we eventually get it and then we get it. How long was that period for you?
Sean Culkin: Yeah, it was longer than I wished, honestly, looking back.
Peter McCormack: Yeah, we all feel like that.
Sean Culkin: I think we all say that! I think it's important to share a little bit that I got to share with Jack on the phone call, but for me it really was my senior year at Mizzou and at that point, I was fully immersed in finance; that was my major. And, it was the first time in my life where I had a level of passion and interest equal to what I had in football.
I ended up getting a highly competitive internship as this equity research analyst for this insurance firm, so between workouts, meetings, practices, class, I'd be working 30-plus hours a week, had my own Bloomberg terminal, geeking out on Excel spreadsheets and in that time, I was really grooming myself for Wall Street and the demands over there, if the NFL didn't work out. That was the trajectory that I saw for myself.
Then I came across blockchain and Bitcoin and it being created by this anonymous creator and quickly saw the beauty and non-discretionary components of the network, and I thought it was very George Washington, you know, Satoshi, to be just be selfless and remain anonymous. And, I recognised the store of value it offered and the fact its supply can be verified I think is incredible. I don't know, and didn't know at that time, any asset that can say that. Bitcoin is also so transparent just about its issuance and the only asset that I knew to be similar was gold; but I saw it to be better and more attractive to future generations.
Speaking of gold, one of the big reasons I decided to major in finance was because of my dad. He was super bullish on gold and shared his reasons to me often. So, unlike many people, I think, that just take the norm as truth, I was exposed, at an early age, I was introduced to flaws and problems associated to central banking.
Unfortunately, all this was happening one week before training camp and that's when we're going 5.00am to 9.00pm for a month straight and I had nothing invested and completely just forgot about Bitcoin for years. It's unfortunate, because I think the price of Bitcoin was $750 at the time; it was July 2016. And that's where kind of how I said earlier in this podcast, I had the decision, am I going to pursue football or finance? I didn't have that break-out collegiate career, but I knew I belonged, so I betted on myself and I was undrafted, always made the team, but I still had no skin in the game with Bitcoin.
I think that's huge in life too, right; if you don't risk capital that you spent energy and time to obtain on something, you won't personally be invested. So, as I continued to learn about finance and economics in the off-seasons over the years, I didn't put too much thought truly into Bitcoin; but the whole time, it would continue to show up in some article or headline and I just saw this growing monster that just became bigger and bigger and just kept poking at me like, "Hey, Sean, look at Bitcoin!"
Still at this time, just through life events, I neglected it and would even have really good conversations in the locker room with Russell Okung and just I don't know what it was; I was trying to think about this. Why didn't I just invest money at the time? Why didn't I feel compelled to just do what I did in December and then obviously now? I don't know, but I came to this decision on my own time, which I think is special, just thinking through for yourself and coming to the decision through your own doing.
But, in March 2020, that's when I realised, I think the world would be forever changed and I thought previous models would become antiquated over time, and I was finally looking to buy a home at a discount, I was ready, and that never came. So, it made me think, how should I allocate my portfolio for what I expected to accrue over the next decade.
At this time though, I'm also fully immersed in rehab. I just came off the Achilles injury. I'm doing everything possible to get back into the league. I was telling my agent, telling teams, "No, I'm not ready", super hard challenging times. And finally got -- I had a workout and I told my agent, "You know what; I feel good. Chuck me out". This is 7.00pm at night. The next morning, I flew out to Baltimore.
Then, I'm sitting, going through the whole year, having learned a new playbook, one of the more difficult playbooks I've ever had to learn in Baltimore, in the middle of the season; so, I have no time. I'm not reading any books; I'm not reading anything that pertains to anything finance or economics or Bitcoin. I'd had an ankle injury that sidelined me for five weeks, so I had a little bit more time. And I remember vividly sitting in the hot tub and being like, "You know what; screw it". It was starting to run up at that point and I spent an hour just going over what I already knew and just put some skin in the game.
From there, my life has changed. I only put, I think, $5,000 in and then I would just follow it daily and just fell in love with it, the rabbit hole, as we all have, and just found the beauty and opportunity; and just through my level of conviction and education and interest, I started to question myself. I'm like, "Dude, why not get paid in Bitcoin?" Russell did it, why would I not?
Peter McCormack: What was it like in that locker room with Okung? Was he like the Bitcoin guy; was everyone like, "What the fuck's going on with this guy?" Or, was it a quiet thing; was he trying to teach you all about it?
Sean Culkin: Russell just had a really contrarian mindset that you knew if you were engaging in a conversation with him, it was going to be a good one and you were going to learn something. You were to leave that conversation being, "Wow, I learned something new", whether I agree or not and I respected that. He never pushed it. He never came across as salesy and pushed it down our throats, but when it came to talking about investments -- because, we're making good money; we're investing our money; that's a common topic. Bitcoin would come up and it's fascinating too to also see his growth.
This is what happens to bitcoiners, right; his growth from the beginning conversations to now, what I see on Twitter and his level of growth and it just makes you think. And I think before, peopled viewed Bitcoin as this wrong stereotype and it's just this risky, super -- for illegal money laundering and drug deals; the complete opposite of what it's actually designed for, right; the egalitarian use it provides.
I think when he first put his salary in it, that made a lot of people think, like this is possible. And it takes one and then it takes two --
Peter McCormack: Why?
Sean Culkin: Yeah, why? I look at this situation, like last week, the fact that it was covered like it was I think means a lot to the sentiment of how people view Bitcoin. Overall, it was super positive and the irony too in deciding how to release the statement; were we going to use a bigger publication and agree to exclusivity? But then, from there, not every platform, apparently, it's harder for them to cover it. And we decided to go smaller, have them agree to embargo and also see, if people find it valuable, it will be covered, right?
Every single platform that said they want it without doing an exclusive deal on it, everyone covered it, which I think means a lot. If I had have done this three years ago, I think it would have been a completely different response than how it was last week. For me, I've even more bullish.
Peter McCormack: Is there a lot of chatter amongst teammates and shit now? I know Russell Okung was definitely a visionary with this, like he was the first really good balls deep in sports into Bitcoin; are you finding now this is quite a common conversation; are you talking about it with other players?
Sean Culkin: It's definitely grown over time for sure. I think since then, people have hit me up and they just want to know, what are the next steps.
Peter McCormack: They speak to our guy, Jack!
Sean Culkin: Hit up Jack Mallers, man, hit him up and educate yourself; learn; do your research! That's the one thing I hope to take away from what I did. If I can inspire one person to just spend an hour to research Bitcoin. Because, the people that just FUD like crazy and are so dogmatic probably have spent an hour of their life total researching Bitcoin and they came to the conclusion that it's a terrible investment. That makes no sense to me at all.
So, if I can inspire somebody to spend more time to decide for themselves, I think it's going to grow. I think you're going to see mass adoption and as athletes, I think we have an opportunity, we have a platform. When people do it, the question I've had more people hit me up with, "Man, should I be doing this; how do I do this?" and I'm bullish, man; I'm excited.
Peter McCormack: I'm going to go back to the fact that it's 100%. That's pretty bold conviction, because Bitcoin doesn't just go up in a straight line all the time, right. I know we're in a bull market, but it's pretty volatile. You've got to have some pretty hardcore diamond hands to be holding through a multi-year situation. That's some pretty serious conviction, Sean?
Sean Culkin: I don't know, I used to struggle with that, when I used to mess around in day-trade stocks. I've regretted every single sell I've ever made with a security; every single sell. I don't think I've ever looked back and been, "Yeah, that was a good decision". I've always let my emotions dictate what I should do and besides just investing, just me and growing as a person, when I can get a hold of my emotions and detach and zoom out and look at the big picture, I also am looking at dips and corrections as opportunities.
Why have we thought dips should instil fear, unless there's material information that comes out that, "Man, the thesis has changed; move on with this security", right? I look at it as opportunity and just look at the big picture. I see it growing at 200% a year; it's the first asset to ever reach $1 trillion in 12 years. I have been very frugal with my money that I've made so far in the league, so I kind of looked at my forecasted expenses over the coming years and thought --
Peter McCormack: "Fuck it!"
Sean Culkin: Yeah, "Fuck it", exactly, dude! I can do this and I don't know, man, I looked at the numbers too and it's so easy to look in hindsight and be, "I should have done this". But, I was crunching the numbers and today I tweeted my $12,000 signing bonus, and this is after taxes as well, would have been $250,000.
Peter McCormack: $250,000, dude, I know.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I did it for my whole salary, just the base salary, and I didn't look at every single payday; I didn't go through my old -- because I've used so many of these ADPs, I couldn't even remember the login credentials, but I took the average Bitcoin price from August through December, through those years of 2017 through 2020, and I think that includes part of a bull, part of a bear, right; and I think minimum before expenses, using 50% as taxes being out in Cali, man, I think base salary in USD was $950k over that time and Bitcoin was over $7 million after taxes of 50%; and that's not including what those dollars would buy you, right?
There's definitely significant drawdowns during that time period, right, probably during those time periods; and that's why I know is going to happen too; people are going to be like, "Oh, you idiot, man, look at it. It's not, it's going to zero, man". It isn't going to zero; it's too big now. And, I know what that does to the histogram, man. When you cut off the left tail, the probability of it going to zero, what that does to the mean, right?
I don't know; for me, the narrative's just getting stronger and in your last podcast, will we have a typical correction and, I'm just saying, who wouldn't buy the dip right now? I don't know what will happen, but it's different.
Peter McCormack: Do you want to ask our guest anything, co-host Mallers?
Sean Culkin: Co-host Jack!
Jack Mallers: This is your show, man.
Peter McCormack: Co-host today; co-host Jack. It's your show, man.
Jack Mallers: I'm not sure I have. I'll ask one, because I'm put on the spot, but then I'll let you guys do your thing. I'm curious, Sean, I think what you've done is bigger than football and I think you know that and, yeah, the initial interest will be about what it means for an NFL player following Russ. You graduated the stakes with the 100%; that level of conviction is eye-popping, it demands research.
But, I want to hear, if I were the audience, I think I know the answer, but more so of your thoughts outside of football; because I think the problem that you're trying to solve for has nothing to do with being in the NFL. I think everyone that has income that is not working capital to sustain a lifestyle needs to save and I think you were very particular in your messaging how you wanted this to be received, and what success looked like for you in this. You didn't have to tell anyone, but you were very particular on what you wanted to say.
So, I'd be curious to hear, bigger than football, where you think humanity's trending and how you're trying to be additive towards that narrative, I guess, if that makes any sense; because that's what I appreciate about you most, is you took a hard-earned platform through many injuries and you were very particular with me on what you wanted to accomplish here. So, that's what I hope that the audience can get from you, is you're much more than a football player to me.
Sean Culkin: Like you said, this is beyond football. Football was the platform and it served its purpose, but I'm trying to inspire as many people as possible that it's all relative to your current financial situation, your risk parameters, but -- because people ask me, "Why don't you just buy Bitcoin?" and obviously my situation is extreme, being 100%, but I view it as a 401(k). Take a certain allocation that you feel comfortable and don't need in the near term and put it aside and wake up in 10, 15, 20 years and see the impact that will have on your financial future.
For me, I think it's, I don't know, and this is something I'm starting actually to explore more and I don't want to come across as I know everything and I'm kind of pulling back on this, because I know what it would imply. But, from my understanding, after Reagan, trickle-down economics doesn't always make it to the hands of the individuals that it's intended for.
When I look at Bitcoin, I see an algorithm that doesn't discriminate; you can be your own bank. You also don't know who's benefitting most. Is it someone in Miami, or California, or England, or El Salvador? It's open-source, so anyone can open a node and join the consensus platform and I just think it could be a solution for shrinking the wealth gap too, for marginalised communities. I think buying as many feasible sats as you can will go further than buying fractional shares of stocks, like Apple or Tesla or any growth stock at these valuations.
As I said before, I say that with caution, because I want to really research that before I really back that with high conviction, because I don't want anyone listening to this to just be, "All in on Bitcoin!", but I really believe in that; I truly believe that it's going to go beyond athletes; it's going to be adopted by people; and I also have this theory that, with how social media is right now and podcasts, I think people that have value-added ideas will be heard, regardless of the amount of power or money that they have.
The way ideas are disseminated to people, I think is different today. Before, it was so centralised and through large corporations that own most of the TV stations and newspapers; what's seen on the internet. They controlled the narrative and I think before, if you had an idea and didn't have power or a platform, it was hard for anyone to hear you. And here we are talking right now and people are listening and people have access to it; friction is low and they can decide for themselves.
So I think with that and Twitter, right; Twitter's huge and it's only growing. I think if you continue to produce valuable content, it will just spread to others and I think that's going to be a huge catalyst and more people adopting Bitcoin. You've already seen it last year with meme stocks, Reddit users, WallStreetBets. The retail investor is breaking the stereotype; we're not dumb, foolish people. We have ideas and often right. And I think, for the first time, the retail investors beat the institutions in finding Bitcoin right now.
I know I'm just rambling on and answering more than what you just asked, Jack --
Jack Mallers: No, but it's good.
Sean Culkin: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: It feels like the whole mid-rabbit hole stuff, when you're flying down it and you're learning and you're picking more up and you're getting more conviction. It just sounds like you just front-loaded the conviction?
Sean Culkin: Yeah. And I'm just hoping that others can just decide for themselves, but for me it was, if Bitcoin was the one -- because, when I ask somebody, "Man, if you had $1 million, where would you put it right now?" and dependent on who you were talking to, maybe an advisor would be "Well, it depends on their current situation, we'd like to save the first --". I'm like, "Okay, no. I'm saying, what asset class right now do you trust?" and if Bitcoin was the one asset that I was trying to accumulate the most of right now, and I believe that is also true for many other people, and every time I looked at my cash balance I try to divest, why would I not get paid in the asset that is becoming increasingly more scarce, while demand is also increasing?
That's a huge component in the way I'm thinking and analysing opportunities, because right now I just think, where do we go from here? The boomers are retiring and pension funds are reliant on stimulus injection and you can't let rates rise. The yield curve control's going to be an effect, they'll continue to buy long-dated securities and bonds and just adding more feel to the -- I don't know, I think we're just caught up in this inflexion point and that's why I said earlier, I think we're in the beginning.
In the next decade, we're going to see rapid, rapid change, whether that's just crypto, Bitcoin, obviously I'm Bitcoin bull; but just the whole DeFi space, there's a change happening right now and if you can't see it, man, I've got to ask you why. And if you said you haven't spent more than an hour researching, it means nothing to me.
Peter McCormack: Yeah. I think you're right. I mean, I'm not in on the whole DeFi thing, I don't think Strike's launching a DeFi platform, but I'm with you on the whole Bitcoin thing. But, it's impressive the conviction to just go, "I get it, now I'm going 100%". That leap is huge, man.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I mean I don't know, I've saved to at least buy me some time, my burn rate. I see that picture and where I'm at with that model and the worst case scenario, and I'm okay with volatility; I'm fine with that. If I have a big dip and the thesis remains the same, I'm buying! This is something that I don't have to necessarily do in the near term, because I've saved at least a little bit of time. But why sell; you can leverage it, you can collateralise it, like the Michael Saylor strategy, right?
I think you're going to see more protocols develop, credit card systems where you can just remain that LTV ratio and let it ride and know that the interest you're paying is being exceeded by Bitcoin and basically live a tax-free lifestyle. I mean, I haven't figured out the ins and outs of that, but I know that I have one time within my own means to figure it out on my own, but also let it develop; and I think it's developing before our eyes.
I have zero plans. That's what people are like, "What's the end game?" I'm like, "The end game is giving my passphrase, my code, to my kids". Like, hey man, you are set, you are fricking set! If this sounds conceited, I'm a very humble guy, but look me up and see what your father did and I'm assuming there's going to be a time where people will think I was crazy; the fine line of brilliance and crazy, right, you know? I'm cool with that though. I have iron stomach, man, from football after games, the same people that are glorifying you after winning the game, are crushing you after a missed block or a dropped ball; I'm used to that. I'm not impacted in any way by Twitter.
Peter McCormack: Well, I love your conviction. I think it's badass, it's great to hear. I love the fact that you're working with my boy, Jack, here. Nice little bonus for him to dip his head in and say hello, drop it in.
Jack Mallers: Is that a cue for me?
Peter McCormack: Drop it like it's hot.
Jack Mallers: I'm proud of Sean and Strike's rolling this, I really am. I'm going to war for bitcoiners and for people like Sean. I've got a heart of a lion and I've built my career around being supportive of leaders like him. I really view Sean as a leader. He's taken on a lot of flak. Who knows how teams are going to look at him, you know, potential locker-room risk, guys look at him weird, Bitcoin's going to dip, he may lose friends.
He did this for the betterment of people that aren't himself; those are qualities of a leader and of a great man and of a man that pushes humanity forward and I think he's trying to build a legacy and he's hinted how he views being a dad some day and growing up with the father he had. So, yeah, these are qualities in a human being that I appreciate, so fuck yeah, man, seriously.
Peter McCormack: Fuck, yeah. Sean, I love it, I love your conviction, I think it's awesome; it's great to hear. I will try and get out, come and watch you play when I'm next in the US; maybe Jack will come with me and we'll go out and see you play.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, man.
Peter McCormack: Try and understand the game a bit more. You know, we used to get six games in London a year that were pretty good.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I played actually in one. I played in the London game.
Peter McCormack: You did?
Sean Culkin: Yeah.
Peter McCormack: I've been to a few.
Sean Culkin: Man, I was disappointed. Wembley, I wanted to be there for so long. We played in Cleveland and then instead of flying to London and spending the week there, we stayed for five days in Cleveland and then flew to London, so we were there for a whole 48 hours and we had one day, I went out, went to a pub, had me a beer, fish and chips and saw the London Bridge.
Peter McCormack: You'd need more than 48 hours, though.
Sean Culkin: Yeah, I know, man, I needed so much more. I'm trying to think what else I did; it wasn't much. Yeah, that was like a half day. Came back, chilled and then the day before the game, I just chilled like I typically do. Got a routine; got to stick to it.
Peter McCormack: Well listen, I love it, I love your conviction, I love what you're doing, I love that you're working with my boy, Jack, here. I think it's awesome and I appreciate you coming on my show to talk about it. You're a visionary obviously amongst your peers and I think you're going to be talking to them a lot about Bitcoin. I'm interested to follow your Twitter, see if you go full Okung on us, because it will be interesting.
But look, dude, thanks for coming on my show and just keep doing your thing. And if people want to follow you, tell them where on Twitter to find you?
Sean Culkin: So, Twitter @culkin22, Instagram @culk80.
Peter McCormack: Right, I'm going to stick that shit in the show notes, man. But, from El Salvador, brother.
Sean Culkin: Peter, hey, appreciate the time, man, thanks for having me; and Jack, incredible surprise, man. Good to see you, brother. You guys enjoy tonight.
Jack Mallers: Good to see you too.
Sean Culkin: Don't have too many White Claws, bro, you know!
Jack Mallers: I won't, I don't want any. We'll see what he's up to. But also, to help you hopefully sleep better at night, the amount of DMs I'm getting from NFL players are out of this world and there's a correlation to your announcement, so if that means anything to you, buddy.
Sean Culkin: Let's go!
Jack Mallers: Yeah, absolutely.
Sean Culkin: Damn hyped, man. I love hearing that!
Peter McCormack: I've got DMs off one NFL player, this guy here. It's my only one, man; this kid! All right, Sean, love it, bro. Hopefully we can hook up, we can have a Whiskey at some point.
Sean Culkin: That would be great.
Peter McCormack: We can talk about some hardcore, hang out, man. Appreciate what you're doing, appreciate you coming on the show.
Sean Culkin: Thanks again, man, it was a blast.
Peter McCormack: And you, man, and I hope this Bitcoin investment crushes it for you, dude.
Sean Culkin: No, it's going to be good, man; I'm excited, so appreciate the time again.
