WBD237 Audio Transcription

The 1 Bitcoin Trump Bet with American HODL & Phil Geiger

Interview date: Tuesday 23rd June 2020

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with American Hodl and Phil Geiger. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, Hodl, Phil and I discuss the bet, US politics, if the current economic and social situation is positive or negative for Trump, populism, voter suppression and the election race.

“Pete, if me and you watch the election together and Trump wins, I’m going to feel this weird mix of feelings because I will have just taken 5 grand of you… but I’m also going to be pretty fucking worried because I think we’re going to immediately see riots.”

— American HODL

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: I was wondering if we should just get straight into it, not even talk about it. I haven't even prepared questions. This is one of those ones where I think we're just going to shoot the shit. To make this show worthwhile, we should talk about the bet, but we should also talk a bit about Bitcoin. Bitcoin's tied in to all of this, right? Everything that's going on right now.

American Hodl: Totally! I wanted to talk to you about the bet and have it be this fun thing where I was like, "Oh, rah, rah Trump!" And you were like, "Oh, rah, rah, rah Biden!" But I think both of us agree that the bet's like betting on the Super Bowl. It's just a fun, silly thing. A lot of the strife that we're seeing, I think is misplaced and misguided. I think if people understood what was really at the core, where the rot in the system really was, it could be much more productive and America wouldn't maybe be on fire at the moment.

Peter McCormack: Well, that's that thing, because when I may be critical of Trump, people are like, "I knew you were a fucking lefty." And I was like, "No, I'm not. I'm really not." I think it's a terrible state that the US has got itself into where for the next election, your two choices are Trump and Biden, of which I don't think either of them is a valid candidate for what people need right now. But at the same time, I'm not binary Trump bad, like all Trump's bad, I just think he does a lot of moronic things. But I do think he's going to lose.

American Hodl: Oh, he's a dumb ass, 100% dumb ass. He's probably the dumbest President we've ever had. Well, I don't know, Bush was pretty dumb too, so it's hard to say.

Peter McCormack: I'll tell you what my main issue with Trump is. There was for a while, I actually quite liked him. There were things about him I liked. Firstly, he was just funny. It was just funny following him and what he would say, but I think he's dangerous in some ways. But I understand why he's become so popular with people, because we're in this really crazy fucked up time where people are doing really crazy, stupid shit. I think some people just want an authoritarian. When people are building these autonomous zones, they want someone like Trump tweeting, "If you do this in Washington, we'll force you to close down."

I think some people want that because they're fed of a lot of weird stuff that's happening on the left. Ultimately, the bet isn't about who I want as President, because firstly, I'm not American so it doesn't really matter. Well it does, because I think the US leads the world in a lot of ways, so I think it is important, but I honestly couldn't pick one. I couldn't vote even if I wanted to because I don't know who's worse right now; I genuinely don't. I just put the bet out there because I think he will lose.

American Hodl: Okay, what are your reasons? Because from my perspective, he seems like a guaranteed lock to win. In fact, I don't think that anything that has happened in the last six months has taken any wind out of his sails. I think if anything, you're going to see him win by a wider margin than last time because, for one, last time the Republican establishment was very wary of him, they didn't know what to do with him, they didn't know what category to put him in and they didn't know where their allegiances lay. Now the full machine is behind him and what you're hearing out of the people on the ground in Republican states is that if anything, support has surged.

Because here's the thing Pete, if you're a person who has a dissenting opinion right now and you're just a regular American, you're maybe moderate to center-right to right and you put up a status that says, "All lives matter", you'll get fucking fired from your job and you'll have everything cancelled. You'll find yourself in this weird digital death where you got assassinated, digitally and you're left in this isolated position, so people don't want to speak up. They're not telling their real opinion to the pollsters, they're not telling their real opinion to even the people they work with. But when you go in the voting booth, it's just you and God and you smash that Trump button because you're like, "Fuck this, at least this guy, as big an asshole he is and with all the problems he has, he tells it like it is.

He says what I'm thinking." Aside from that, there's a deeper thing, where the left has basically totally abandoned the working class man in America. The Democrats used to be the party of the working class. My grandfather was a Democrat, he worked in the steel mill and he would be voting for Trump if he was alive today, because the people in middle America have been totally left out in the cold. They've had their jobs stolen from them due to globalization, they got addicted to opiates and they're suffering all these diseases of despair, and the people on the left coast want to call them, deplorables.

They want to call them, "Non-productive members of society." Trump gets up there on the fucking pulpit and says, "I see you, I see you for who you are, there's nothing wrong with you. Something was done to you that wasn't right, it's un-American, and I'm going to fuck these people up." When you go to a Trump rally... I've never been to one, but you can see the energy coming out of them.

Peter McCormack: I've been to one.

American Hodl: Dude, it's like a fucking rock concert, right?

Peter McCormack: Dude, do you know what happened when I went to one? I went to the one in Vegas with Miss Hodl. So we're in Vegas and there's a rally on the Vegas Convention Center so we go down, I just wanted to see it. It was a really great atmosphere. It was a lot about what I like about America in terms of the people. My favourite trips to America is when I go to places like Wyoming and I meet what I think are real Americans, rural, hardworking Americans, like the time I spent in Dallas and I went to a rodeo. It's all cliché stuff but I've really enjoyed that, culturally, I really enjoy that. I got a Trump MAGA hat and I got a Trump t-shirt. 

Anyway, afterwards, we had to go up to the shopping center at the end of the strip, the one that's near the Wynn and I just left my t-shirt and hat on and I tweeted about this, it's the most popular Tweet I've ever had, it had 15,000 likes or something. But basically, I was getting stared at, real evil stares all over the place, this guy with his family pulled his kids away from me. Well not pulled his kids away from me, but it's at this crossing and he stood in front of them and just stared me down the whole time. Then we went into this store, as we went in, this girl came out with her friend. I think she might have been gay, I think she might have been lesbian and she shouted at me, "Go fuck yourself."

So it was a really weird experience. I felt a lot of hostility, so I understand this silent minority. What was quite interesting for me is when you talk about the Democrat party has deserted the working class people of America, I watched a really interesting interview with Steve Bannon, I think it might have been on PBS or something or other. This is what he was talking about. I think a lot of the policies of Trump have actually come from him. I almost feel like Bannon shaped the President that he thought America needed.

American Hodl: Yeah, Bannon's a genius too.

Peter McCormack: I think one of the things that helped was that Trump had quite a strong opinion on China, so that strong opinion on China was something that he could mould. I think a lot of the credit for it, the Trump winning the presidency was Bannon's ability to identify what working class Americans needed, which is quite a funny thing, because a lot of people talk about Trump being like Boris Johnson and the UK Conservatives being like the Republicans. But if anything it's the Labour Party in the UK, which are very socialist, which very much support the working class. So there is a difference there.

American Hodl: Yeah, the thing is Pete, I'll give you an example. I was talking about my grandfather who was a Democrat. My family is from this small town in America, which used to be the American dream. It was like what you saw from the 1950s with picket fences and everything and he worked at the steel mill and times were good. Then right around 1971, the steel mill closes down, and things start to get bad. Then meth invades the community and by the end of his life, this idyllic community that my grandfather had bought into and had a lot of sunk cost in, had been totally bombed out by globalism and by the elites who basically this professional managerial class of elites, what some people called the precariat.

These people who are occupying these high positions of power, like let's say inside the New York Times, or let's say inside government organizations, they have no allegiance to God and country, just none. So regular people look at them as an invading force. That's how Trump voters look at these people and that's where you get the really insane right-wing conspiracy stuff where it's like everybody's a pedophile and they all go to Jeffrey Epstein's Island and they all eat babies or whatever it is. The real thing they're saying, in a very stupid way, is just, "These people are not like us, they don't have our best interests at heart and what they've done to the American system that we love, is parasitic." 

o anybody who stands up against that despite their flaws, because like you were saying like Bannon moulded Trump, yes of course, Trump is not some paragon of virtue, he sits on a golden throne and he's one of those kinds of guys. So they don't give a shit about any of that, about Trump and nothing he can ever do will make them hate him because he's Teflon in the sense that he goes after the people they hate repeatedly and they need that. They need a voice, they are the disenfranchised, like poor, working class Americans have been just totally left out in the cold by this growing culture of globalization.

Peter McCormack: But let me ask you something, because this is the important question for me with regards to this is, and this is why I worry about populism sometimes, is that Trump is the voice of the working American and they love him. He whips up a storm at the rallies and he says everything they want to hear. I don't know the truth of this because I'm a long way from this, but policy-wise does he really represent the hard working American people? Because you know I've been doing this Mnuchin series on my Defiance show and everything I've uncovered about Trump and Mnuchin and what they've done policy-wise, actually is very much greasing the wheels of Wall Street, lining Wall Street's pockets.

Literally the moment we were just about to start this, I've been going through the tax cuts from 2017, the tax cuts policies and the majority of that, I think something like the 80% of the tax cuts went to the top 1%. So that really isn't about the working Americans and then if you look at what happened during the pandemic, Mnuchin was talking about the $550 billion that went to big business and refuse to talk about who it was. It's the continuation of the policies, which is privatized profits, socialized losses.

So ultimately that kind of policy is going to negatively affect the working class more. So is he really talking a good game, but like similar populist presidents who've taken power in South American countries who've said very similar things. Is it actually just bullshit?

American Hodl: Well, of course it's bullshit. That's politics, right? If the Republicans have a blind spot, I don't think that they even realize that they've become the party of the working class because the Republicans were never the party of the working class. When I was growing up, my father would be termed, what's called a Country Club Republican, which is you're pretty socially liberal. You don't really care if the gays get married or whatever, but you want people to stay the fuck out of your money. Or people called them, Reagan Republicans, Rockefeller Republicans, whatever and they were seen as the party of big business and that was who they were protecting.

Then the Democrats were protecting the working class. Now those have shifted, but we still have old... The Republicans are confused as to who they are and I think so are the Democrats. But what you're talking about, what your concern is, is growing fascism, right? This is always the conversation that we're hearing nowadays in divisive American politics and in global politics is that everybody on the right is a Nazi, and everybody on the left is a communist. When I look at the rioting, the streets from a conservative moral matrix, which is what I have, and I think you have something more like a liberal moral matrix, which is, we have to be honest with ourselves when we talk politically, we are coming up with post-hoc rationalizations for why we feel a certain way, but it's all dictated by our feelings.

My moral palette is conservative, so I'm always going to feel like we should be protecting things purity, like for instance, the liberal moral pallet, which I'm sure you're more in line with is all about care and harm reduction. So liberals look at people like Trump and they're like, "This is the worst man I've ever seen in my life, he's doing so much harm." Yeah, some of that's true and especially as a regular human being, he's a despicable person and he has no moral character. I wouldn't invite Donald Trump into my home. But I think the point is not everybody on the left is a communist, not everybody on the right is a socialist. Where I get worried and I think where a lot of the regular Trump voting Republican working class Americans get worried, is the far right has been totally shut out of the conversation.

Despite what you may see at something like Charlottesville, where a bunch of idiots show up with Tiki torches, that's not what's really going on. But the far left, the communist side of the equation has invaded all of America's most popular and storied institutions and the reasons why it has invaded those institutions is because of the embedded growth paradigm that we have due to the fiat standard.

So because these organizations had to grow what they did once they figured out that growth was slowing, is they became sycophantic and they would lie and steal and cheat in order to get growth and that has caused a hollowing out of the American institutional base, writ large, government, media, institutions when Trump gets up there and he says, "The news is fake," the news is fake! That's one of the reasons why I think you're on the wrong side of the bet, because from across the pond, all you can see is what's on social and what's on American news media.

Peter McCormack: It's not true, it's not true dude!

American Hodl: But let me tell you, I'm more plugged into the American whisper network than you are and the text I get from friends and family, and even people who are in elite liberal cities like San Francisco are like, "Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump." It's the polar opposite of what's going on the black mirror, on the smartphone.

Peter McCormack: I'll tell you what's interesting. There's so many things to unpack here and we'll get to why I think it's a solid bet and I think it's more solid bet than you think, because if you were more definite you would take up more bets. You know there's a chance, right?

American Hodl: Well there's too many variables.

Peter McCormack: I think there's another thing going on. There's this weird kind of situation whereby it's very difficult to be a conservative as a child because the policies of conservatism just sound mean. Whereas if you're a child, you're very much Greta Thunberg, like, "Save the environment, save poor people, help everyone out." It's only as you get a bit older, when you start paying taxes yourself and contributing to society, I think you naturally become more conservative.

I actually tend to find that the left tends to be evil policies wrapped in kindness, whereas conservative policies tend to be sound economic and personal policies that seem to be wrapped in sounding kind of mean.

American Hodl: I have a heuristic for this, which is I think if you ran a thought experiment with most liberals where you said, "You could be the most evil person in the world, but everyone would view you as a paragon of virtue." I think a lot of liberals would sign up for that. But if you said to conservatives, "You could be the best person in the world, but everyone would hate you." I think a lot of conservatives would sign up for that.

Peter McCormack:  Yeah, you know what? I don't think you're far wrong with that. So let's get into why I think he might lose.

American Hodl: Okay.

Peter McCormack:  Look, it's not a small amount of money. I'm not some rich guy who's able to throw around a lot of money like this, but what I thought it would do, it would make for an interesting discussion between now and the election, skin in the game, give me a reason to keep a closer eye on it and also now you've joined the bet. The two of us can talk about it closer and look, wouldn't it be great if I can get over to the States for the evening, we spend that evening together.

American Hodl: Oh totally, we should do it, yeah!

Peter McCormack:  It would be cool and interesting. Someone's going to feel a lot of shame.

American Hodl: We got to make a side bet where, if one of us loses in an embarrassing fashion, we have to do something.

Peter McCormack:  Yeah, okay. By the way, I'm not arbing it. People have said, "Oh, you could arb this." I've not arbed it because I don't want to.

American Hodl: Yeah, what I told everybody was, "Listen, this is just me and Pete, man on man. We're not like taking a spread." It's more fun to just have it be straight up.

Peter McCormack:  I am re-buying the Bitcoin. As soon as we set it up with Phil here, we've got to remember Phil's here, and we'll get Phil in on this. But I am going to re-buying the Bitcoin. So it doesn't matter if Bitcoin goes to 50 grand in that time, it makes no... Well it does because I'll be like, "Fuck, 50 grand!"

Phil Geiger: I've been a little quiet in this conversation, because I like to stay out of politics as much as possible. In my view, politics in basically around the world has just been reduced to which side is going to print the money or shoot the money hoes that wins the election.

American Hodl: Exactly and to Phil's point, it's like "Socialism for the rich or socialism for the poor, which one are you voting for?" And it's like, "No, those are both terrible fucking options, let's opt out with Bitcoin."

Peter McCormack:  So if you'd have asked me in January, no way would I have made this bet at all. Not a chance! Pre-pandemic, Trump had it in the bag, not a chance he was going to lose the election. Post pandemic, pre-George Floyd, absolutely, I would have taken the Biden bet because I don't think he handled the pandemic particularly well. I also noticed there was a move away...

So I was chatting to Cernovich about this and there was kind of like a move away from the MAGA crowd, the original MAGA crowd away from him and I think he's kind of lost the MAGA crowd and shown poor leadership, because historically you're in this weird situation where everything he does, a Republican will defend it and everything he does, a Democrat will hate it, that's not really being true and objective, which is probably one of the reasons I struggle on Twitter because I don't pick a side, I'll criticize anyone. 

But now we're in this situation where this whole BLM movement, which has gone beyond being a Black Lives Matter movement, which has just become some weird left push towards Marxism by certain groups and I think some certain unplaced anger in certain places and some well-placed anger in other places. I actually think that's been very harmful for the left, very harmful. So I think it's put it into this kind of more of an even position. But the reason I'm taking the Biden side of the bet is it's three things, I think. So the US election usually comes down to swing States, right?

American Hodl: Yeah, always.

Peter McCormack: So there's certain States which Trump is going to win and certain States which Biden's going to win and they're not going to change.

American Hodl: Yeah, Texas will always be Republican, California will always be Democrat.

Peter McCormack: Who was that guy, Beto? Didn't he nearly take Texas?

American Hodl: Well, yeah, but that was for a Senate seat.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but Texas is changing, that blue dot in Austin has grown.

American Hodl: Doubtful!

Peter McCormack: I know what you mean. But what are the swing States? I always know Florida is one, is Michigan another?

American Hodl: Michigan's a big one. Nevada is usually one. Um, what else? Wisconsin's a swing state. Phil, you know any?

Phil Geiger: Yeah, Wisconsin is a swing state. Ohio, isn't that a swing state usually?

American Hodl: Yeah, Ohio is a big one.

Peter McCormack: So you've got a handful of swing States that are going to decide this right? The popular vote really doesn't matter, does it? It comes down to... It's the electoral seats that you get...

American Hodl: So each state has a number assigned to it, basically, depending on how big the state is. So California is worth a lot, Florida's worth a lot, Rhode Island's worth basically nothing and so it is important to get... You win up the Electoral College by winning States and let's say, I don't know what the numbers are, but let's say California is worth 11 and Rhode Island's worth 1, you want to win more elevens than you want to win ones. So you do want to win big States.

Now they cancel out because Texas is a big state, it goes red, California is a big state, it goes blue and so the States like Ohio, which is sort of middle ground States, let's say they're worth a 6 or a 7. I don't know what the actual number is, but those are the States that you actually want to win in order to win the Presidency and last time a big reason, one of the narratives was Trump won was because he actually got his ass on a plane and got there and talked to the people that are from there and Hillary sat in some penthouse somewhere and was like, "I'm too good to basically go there."

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I think it's probably more than that though. I doubt it's just he got on a plane.

American Hodl: Oh yeah, a lot of it is about the manufacturing culture that used to be in places like Michigan and how these people are pissed that they don't have factory jobs anymore.

Peter McCormack: Because, is it the car manufacturing that went to places like Mexico? And he wanted to bring that back.

American Hodl: Yeah.

Peter McCormack: So the reason I think there is like a... I put it down, I think it's fairly even actually, but the reason I think he may swing, it two or three things. Firstly, I don't think people are gonna be voting for Biden. I think people are going to be voting for Biden's running mate, I think that's what swings it for him.

American Hodl: Do you think people love to vote for token female?

Peter McCormack: I think whoever...

American Hodl: It's going to be Biden, token female, it doesn't matter. The intersectional left is just going to pick somebody out of a hat who has black skin and is a woman.

Peter McCormack: So the names I've seen, Kamala Harris has come out, I've even seen Michelle Obama suggested, but she's mostly...

American Hodl: Kamala Harris is more authoritarian than Trump. How do you square that?

Peter McCormack: Well I don't actually like Kamala Harris. I've actually been uncovering stuff about her in my Mnuchin stuff where she failed to prosecute Mnuchin for the OneWest practices and also received donation from George Soros, who's an investor in OneWest, who knows if they're definitely connected, but I'm not a fan of Kamala Harris, but she is a black woman. You've got the opportunity of swinging votes, both from women and from black people just by doing that.

American Hodl: Hey Pete, women don't vote for other women.

Peter McCormack: I don't know dude.

American Hodl: If they did Hillary Clinton would be President. No, no, no, I'm going to say this because listen, I'm Bitcoin rich, I can say whatever the fuck I want. Women, when you talk to them in private, they say, "I don't want that bitch to be President. What if she's on her period?" That's what women said, okay.

Peter McCormack: But she's not going to be President, she's a running mate.

American Hodl: If Biden dies...

Peter McCormack: She's a running mate representative. So I think that's the first point, the second point, I think you're going to see a very high voter turnout from younger voters, a very, very high voter turnout from young people because they've been mobilized during this period.

American Hodl: Yeah, but I don't know that they necessarily all swing Democrat.

Peter McCormack: Not all, but...

American Hodl: There are a lot of there are a lot of conservative young people on TikTok, Gen Z-ers. Also some of this is when you're young, you pick up your parents' politics.

Peter McCormack: Very true.

American Hodl: So I don't know that necessarily the MAGA kids vote against mom and dad.

Peter McCormack: No, it's not about the MAGA kids, but it is...

American Hodl: Here's another thing you got to consider about your position about young people. Sorry, by the way, I'm totally interjecting on all your points!

Peter McCormack: That's fine!

American Hodl: "These suck Pete, these are terrible points!" I'm sorry man, that's just my personality. But I think one thing you're discounting with Gen Z is that voting for Trump is punk rock, voting for old man Joe Biden is not punk rock.

Peter McCormack: I don't see either being punk rock.

American Hodl: It's become counterculture to be on the... Do you know what the Boogaloo thing is?

Peter McCormack: No, but I agree on this counterculture thing, because I think conservative woke-ism is the new woke, right?

American Hodl: Yeah, like being trad is what they call it, traditional.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, because you've got very few prominent Twitter, liberal thought leaders, but you've got quite a few conservative thought leaders now going with the... Like I say, it's the anti-woke woke.

American Hodl: Totally!

Peter McCormack: But I still think there's going to be a higher voter turnout of people who want to remove Trump, because they don't like him. Just to throw a couple of things in there, I think the economy's going to be very important. How they play the economy over these next three months, because a lot can happen, as we come out of this pandemic situation, if we do firstly, the realities of the economic situation are going to start setting in.

Add to that we're potentially going to have a few spikes and second waves, just seen one in Germany where a town has been closed down, I've just seen the numbers going up in Arizona, like the situation could get very, very messy between now and the vote. I don't think it's a case of Biden winning it, I think it's a case of Trump losing it and enough potential swing voters liking Biden's choice of running mate. I think there's enough factors in there that potentially swing it over the next three months.

American Hodl: Yeah, obviously we disagree.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, of course and you're an American more than me.

American Hodl: Well here's the thing, I think that you're discounting because I think you have a classic recency bias here because right now, if I was to agree with you, I would say, "Yeah, it looks like the Democrats have surged back and that they're winning and that they look primed to take it because people are saying, 'Somebody stop this madness. Trump seems to be ineffective in stopping it.'" That said, I think when you look at the voter base, they're going to look at what happened and the cities on fire and the rioting and looting, because look, you have this schism between people on the left think that everything was a peaceful protest, there was a guy on CNN standing in front of a burning police station saying it was a peaceful protest, "Last night we had a peaceful shooting," it's crazy!

You look at the right. I think they're not going to say, even moderates are not going to say, "I'm not going to vote for the people who are condoning this, who support this behaviour." Then there is going to be a big conservative backlash and that's going to take place at the polls and I do think that it's going to seem up to election time that you're winning the bet and then you're going to lose right at the last minute. When I think if you lose in big fashion, I think we should make a side bet where you got to wear a sombrero that says Pedro on it, that's only fair.

Peter McCormack: I think you can do worse to me. I think I have to wear a MAGA hat for a year.

American Hodl: You'd get punched man, you'll get punched if you do that. This is a thing in the polls too, by the way I got to mention this, is there's contention about what's called the shy Trump hypothesis amongst pollsters and that means that basically people are scared to say that they vote for Trump or they don't want to say that they vote for Trump etc.

Peter McCormack: Of course.

American Hodl: People think that that's not a real hypothesis, but when you look at the fact that people are getting punched in the fucking face if they wear a hat that supports Trump, come on, it's real! Of course they're not going to say, they'll tell the polls what's going on.

Peter McCormack:Dude, I tried to defend him at Christmas, I was with my father and my brother and I tried to defend Trump to them and it got to the point where my brother refused to talk to me and left the room. I wasn't even arguing, I was just pointing out, look at the things he's done, it's not a personality contest. So look, I know that happens and I've read these things about parents who won't go to their child's wedding because she's marrying a Republican and I've seen all that stuff. I tell you what will be interesting, why don't we just try and take each other's side right now? You tell me why you think Biden could win and I'll tell you why I think Trump could win.

American Hodl: Okay, if I'm going to take your side, I would say that I think Biden could win because Trump and the Republicans have been very ineffective during the recent social unrest in America and if I'm a moderate, I want somebody to step up, be a grownup and put an end to this and that's why I would vote for Biden.

Peter McCormack:        Wow, I can't believe you flaked out. I'm not fucking giving you a reason on Trump! No, I'm only kidding. I think the main reason I think Trump could win is actually people don't want to admit they like him, but secretly do in the background and they just don't want to admit it and I think a lot of people actually appreciate that he's standing up with a bit of authority to a lot of the bullshit that's going on.

I think people like that, I think he's a compulsive liar, but I think at the same time, he's saying things, a lot of people want to hear, hardworking Americans want to hear at a time when times are tough and he sounds like he's standing up for the American people. I know he isn't, but he sounds like he is. I think it's going to be very, very close.

American Hodl: Phil, what do you think, as our impartial third party? Who do you think is more right?

Phil Geiger: Ooh, that's a tough one. Yeah, I got to stay neutral on this one, but if I was betting my own money, I would definitely pick Trump on this one.

Peter McCormack: Well you can go fuck yourself Phil!

Phil Geiger: For many of the reasons. I think if you look at what has actually happened and you try to take the emotion out of everything, to Hodl's point, you have cities on fire, you have people who are literally attacking people for expressing a political view. I don't know, I think that the aggression is definitely swinging the moderates to the right.

Peter McCormack: It does highlight though, what a fucked situation politics has become though.

Phil Geiger: Yeah and just to reiterate what I originally said, like all of this polarization and schism is just because we have a cancerous money that's dying. If we were all rich and we had a good money and the federal government couldn't just shoot the money hoes wherever they felt like it, we wouldn't have this type of violence. You'd have people in smaller cities, voting one direction or another. But I don't know, this whole polarization shit is just because we have a dying currency in my opinion.

Peter McCormack: So you think this is a growing situation because of this, this is something that's been going on, most people say since like 71 or...

Phil Geiger: Something happened in 1971, but since then all these different levels of inequality have sprung up in our system and my perspective is that it's just because of the money. As soon as money gets detached from reality, and one party has the ability to just create more of it without earning it, there now is no longer a need to be rational economic actors. They can just extract wealth and direct it however they wish. That's a such a powerful inequality that starts at such a low level in civilization that everything above that is going to be totally distorted.

American Hodl: And I do think you're going to get UBI at some point, no matter who's in office.

Phil Geiger: We have it.

American Hodl: Those $1,200 checks are just UBI light and it doesn't matter who's in office, when it gets to the tipping point where there's even more mass social unrest, somebody is going to have to do something about it and that thing will be UBI, which will be like the Hail Mary of the dying empire.

Phil Geiger: The craziest thing about this last few months is that you have the Republicans that are advocating for sending people cheques. That's crazy! A few weeks ago I tweeted something where if you just try to take some of the emotion and some of the rationalization out from behind what we're seeing, you see UBI, you see violent protests, you see empty store shelves, this is starting to sound like a currency collapse. There's a reason for every, every one of those things, right? "Oh well, this is Coronavirus," or "Oh, this is race issues." The growing rise of communism and socialism, this is all standard currency collapse, playbook stuff.

American Hodl: Yep, 100% agreed.

Peter McCormack: Yeah and the funny thing is I've travelled quite a bit over this last year or so, quite a bit in South America and the pattern is the same everywhere. So fundamentally what is happening in Chile, when I was in Chile there was daily riots, smashing up the shops, closing up the roads, attacking the shops of their fellow Chileans, who they've got no reason to attack, but these people are paying their taxes, and these are the poorest people in Chile, they're paying their taxes and they can't get access to education or healthcare.

Their taxes are going up, the rich are getting richer and whatever libertarians think and I love a lot of what libertarians stand for, but once you're in a system which has a set of rules and you're playing by the rules and others aren't, you've got to expect people to revolt. Everywhere I've been where there's riots or social unrest and it's always the same. You look at someone like Chile, or you look at someone like... I don't know, even Iraq or you look at where all these protests are going around the world and you think, "God, these countries are always crazy."

Now we're seeing that happen in the UK, now we're seeing it happen in the US and it's happening for exactly the same reasons. There is massive inequality, but the inequality is rubbed in your face through social media or the news, you're seeing the inequality in your face and I think people are just fucking sick of it. You're right, it's down to the money.

American Hodl: I got to tell you as somebody with social mobility, I want to get the fuck out of the cities, because I think that to Phil's point, I think we are living through a currency collapse and I don't want to be within punching distance as this giant behemoth dies, You know what I mean? Because I think things are going to get increasingly worse. These will not be the last riots we see.

For instance Pete, if me and you watched the election together and Trump wins, I'm going to feel this weird mix of feelings, because I will have just taken $5,000 off of you, which by the way, thank you in advance, but I'm also going to be pretty fucking worried because I think we're going to immediately see riots immediately. Me and you might walk out of the bar and there might be a fucking riot.

Peter McCormack: I think you might see riots... No, because I don't feel like Republicans riot, that's a different point.

American Hodl: No, but Republicans are ready to kill people, which is a scary thought. All the talk on... If you look and go read the YouTube comments under a Tucker Carlson video, everybody is armed and everybody is just waiting for somebody to aggress against them. You defund the police and... What does a Maoist revolution look like when you have 800 million firearms, or however many firearms we have in America? It's a question that I don't frankly want to know the answer to, but I'm growing more concerned that we may find out the answer to.

Peter McCormack: Maybe the US should just split into two countries, blue country and a red country.

American Hodl: That's why I like Texas because Texas has it written into their article their constitution that they can secede and they have their own energy grid. So I think Texas is most likely to become their own country.

Peter McCormack: I'm right in thinking that at one point it was?

American Hodl: Yeah, Lincoln forced them into the union. I think that we're at a point now where balkanization, meaning the splitting up of America, is within the Overton window, meaning it's okay to talk about it now in polite discourse. I think Candace Owens had a tweet where she was basically saying we should just give the left their own country and let them be stupid all on their own and I think she deleted it because probably push back, people were telling her it's un-American or whatever to say that, but it does feel like that.

We're at a point and I have to worry about the world if that happens, because say what you want about America as a global superpower, and yes, there are a lot of things that America has done wrong, a lot, the list is high, but when we get a power vacuum, is that China is much, much, much, much, much worse. If America's balkanized, America is not in a position to defend the world anymore and China just takes over. That would be very, very bad.

Peter McCormack: It's kind of happening anyway, in some ways,

Phil Geiger: What I really like about Bitcoin though, is that it defunds every government at the same time. So it's like, yeah, it would be horrible if the US balkanized and China was still able to maintain their power, but the yen is crashing as well. So all of these governments around the world, they're losing their ammo at the same time, which makes it I think, a little bit better.

Peter McCormack: I don't think there's a bloodless easy transition to a Bitcoin based economy though.

American Hodl: No, I don't think so either. I love having Phil here to remind us that it's the money, because even though I'm a pretty hardcore Bitcoiner, I definitely know the money is the root of all problems. I still find myself, I'm sure you do too Pete, just getting sucked into these emotional quagmires on a daily basis where I start to be like, "Oh, you can't do this, this is America" and I have to keep reminding myself and going into my rational brain and being like, "Okay, no, this is a currency collapse." That's what we're living through. It feels very surreal when you're inside of it.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, well there's a lot of the things I've been talking about on the show. So there's couple of things I've been doing on the show recently, like firstly, talking to people about currency and the currency collapse, and that has been covered a few times. Another thing I'm starting to do and I'm trying to do over the next month, I'm going to try and reach out and get people on the show, podcasters, influencing other areas, who are talking about these exact issues, but at no point in the conversation, are they talking about the money. Like the other day I listened to Rogan and Bret Weinstein, it's a great interview. Really, really good interview!

American Hodl: That was a great, I listened to that too really good interview.

Peter McCormack: It was really good for two reasons, because you've got two sides there. You have got the professor of the intellect in Bret Weinstein who thinks about these things deeply and then you've got someone like Rogan, who's very much just like the common man, who thinks about like the common person. I think that's really important. A lot of people miss that about Rogan, that's what he represents.

But they went into the nuances, and they went into the specifics of the problems, but at no point in that conversation, did they ever talk about the problem with the money and I think we, because we've got all these great Bitcoin podcasts, where every week, a Bitcoiner talks to another Bitcoiner about Bitcoin. We've got to get the conversation out to these wider groups of people, we've got to get it into these conversations where it's like, the problem is the money and Bitcoin can be a solution, rather them looking and going at us, "Stop, just fuck off you weird Bitcoiners" because that's what it feels like, the attitude is towards it.

Phil Geiger: We've all been trained from birth, to just understand that this is the way that money works, and then when you finally come to Bitcoin and start seeing that, "Wow, no, maybe money has historically never worked this way, and what we're living in is the experiment" it changes your perspective. So everyone's so wrapped up for four generations or whatever, the US dollar has been the global reserve currency so it's completely out of the scope of thinking that there... You take that as the default starting point and then all of the problems are some other thing.

American Hodl: I think a lot of people don't understand that, to Phil's point, Bitcoin is a restorative technology. It's giving us back what we used to have, what was taken as a given by previous generations. When I've been explaining it to people, I've basically been saying to people, Bitcoin is money the way your grandparents thought money worked.

Peter McCormack: All right, so listen, Phil, we've got you here for another reason though, because we've got this bet, and you know I trust you Hodl, I actually trust you that if it came on the day, that you would just pay up, I trust you. But at the same time, this is something interesting, something cool, we've got Phil in here to arbitrate this, so what are we actually doing here?

Phil Geiger: All right, so Bitcoin has an amazing address type that is native and it's called a multisignature address type. What a multisignature address is, is it allows you to add multiple pieces of key data to form and address, and it requires potentially multiple keys in order to send the address. So what we'll build today, is a two of three multisig address, which means that Peter, Hodl and I are going to contribute public key data from our hardware devices, our hardware wallets, and we'll use that public key data to build an address that requires two signatures, so it could be me and Peter, or me and Hodl or Hodl and Peter collaborating to move the funds.

Now this type of address has been available in Bitcoin for a very long time and most Bitcoin companies that custody funds for people, use multisig because it is currently the best practice for security. What we released at Unchained Capital is this open source tool called Caravan, which lets more of an average user and an average hardware wallet or a Bitcoin user collaborate to build multisig addresses.

So it's a really straight forward tool, it lives in the browser, you don't have to install anything, if you already have your hardware wallet set up and now three people from different locations in the world, so I'm based in Austin, I think Peter's in, I don't know where you are right now...

Peter McCormack: I'm in Bedford!

Phil Geiger: We're not meeting in person, you're in Bedford?

Peter McCormack: Of course!

Phil Geiger: Okay, all right. I know you travel a lot man, but we're all in different areas of the world, and we're collaborating to build a Bitcoin address. So this is an amazing use case, I think, that Bitcoin enables us, in particular, multisig, because it's collaborative.

Peter McCormack: But you know I won't understand the majority of what you've just said there. I want to know what is it, what happens? You create an address, and I have a part signature to it? Talk me through the actual process that we're going to go through, what I'm physically going to do?

Phil Geiger: All right, so we are all holding hardware wallets, Trezor, Ledger, whatever you like. We're going to connect our hardware wallets and send public data that we will combine so that all three of us are controlling one address, collaboratively. Two of us have to work together in order to spend from the address. So we call that a two out of three multisig address.

Peter McCormack: So once we've created that address, I have to send my half a Bitcoin to it?

Phil Geiger: Correct, so both you and Hodl will send 50 million sats to this address that all three of us are participating in, so individually, none of us hold the Bitcoin, because we only have one out of three keys, but if two of us cooperate, then we can move the Bitcoin out of the address.

Peter McCormack: And then secretly, I can offer you 10 millions sats and we can flush out the wallet?

Phil Geiger: That's my plan! Yeah, I will be accepting bribes, it'll have to be a lot... No, I'm just kidding!

American Hodl: This is basically DeFi bro, it's a smart contract! We're doing hella DeFi stuff right now!

Peter McCormack: We're both saying here that we trust Phil more than we trust each other?

American Hodl: Well no, Phil is there just as a back up, in case the loser of our bet bitches out, because I fully expect you to sign for yourself, Pete.

Peter McCormack: Listen, I've got a lot to lose.

American Hodl: Just in case you act like a little bitch, you don't like that Trump won, that's why Phil's here.

Peter McCormack: Imagine that if I actually did that. That's a career ending!

American Hodl: Well this is the thing, it allows us to talk hella shit on Twitter, because even if I hurt your feelings to the point where you won't talk to me anymore, I can still get Phil to sign.

Peter McCormack: Dude, we're still going to talk and I'm going to be with you the night it happens. So the terms of the bet, we're agreed that if there is a vote, of which Trump is on the ballot, and he loses, I win the bet. Whereas, if for some reason Biden pulls out and it's another Democrat, it makes no difference on my side?

American Hodl: Right. In fact, that would be better for you.

Phil Geiger: I have a question, what happens if Trump loses then appeals then wins?

American Hodl: Well that would be ultimately a win.

Peter McCormack: That is controversial. I think that's the kind of shit that's going to happen.

Phil Geiger: Yeah, that's why I wanted to bring that up.

American Hodl: Pete, did you pay any attention to the 2000 election? With all the voter stuff going down in Florida? I think we're going to get a situation like that this time, where there's going to be recounts, and people calling for recounts. It's going to be a hotly contested election, so I think me and you will have to wait to settle up, unless it's just so obvious that...

Peter McCormack: Well that says to me that you're less sure if you think there's going to be recounts and recounts.

American Hodl: No, but you can see that both sides are posturing, Trump is putting out tweets where he's saying the Dems are going to do all this fraudulent mail-in voting and the Democrats are putting out tweets that are saying that Trump is going to abuse executive power. Both sides are pre-accusing each other of cheating, that's how you're going to know this could end up in front of the Supreme Court.

Peter McCormack: So let me ask you then, on that situation, what's the deal with mail-in votes? Because they've resisted for years, and as I understand it, even Trump's mailed in a vote before.

American Hodl: I'll be honest, I don't understand the full controversy, because when I was going to school in Chicago when Obama was elected and I mailed in a vote for Obama to my home state. So to me, I thought we already had mail in votes.

Peter McCormack: Do you think it's more likely that there's been some kind of study that's been done that mail in votes are better for the Democrats, because Democrats are more likely mail in votes, whereas Republicans don't have to do that shit?

American Hodl: Democrats won't leave their houses. When I go to a store or something, you can tell who's voting for Trump and who's not by how many people are wearing masks. If you're wearing a mask you're not voting for Trump, if you're not wearing a mask you're voting for Trump. That's where we're at in America. So Democrats are scared to leave the house, so yeah, they're going to want mail in votes.

Peter McCormack: What about this other thing I've seen in primaries where the number of polling stations has been drastically reduced, from 100 to 20? Have you seen anything about this?

American Hodl: Yeah, that's just classic voter suppression stuff. I think they, Phil, am I right that they call that gerrymandering? Or is the gerrymandering something else?

Phil Geiger: I think gerrymandering is adjusting the districts, so that your population either lands red or blue. There's always election fuckery happening.

American Hodl: Yeah, they're going to be pushing their full legal powers in both directions and some of it is going to be whole cloth illegal, on both sides. I imagine that the Democrats will do illegal things, and I imagine that Trump will do illegal things and those things will cancel each other out like a double foul.

Phil Geiger: Yeah, and keep in mind, after the last election, there was a multi year Russia probe. So there has to be some sort of... I don't know, I think you guys need to figure out what exactly a loss is.

American Hodl: We're going to do what the candidates do, we're going to have to call each other and concede. We'll fight it out, and then one of us is going to have to make the call, "You know what, it's not looking good for my side, Hodl, I'm going to have to give you that money."

Phil Geiger: Yeah, well, I don't know, we could do a thing where if you don't concede every month until it's decided, you have to give him another 0.1 Bitcoin

American Hodl: There's a vague or something. I'll let you go double or nothing at some point.

Peter McCormack: Listen, I'd be willing to say, whoever is still in the White House at Christmas is the winner and then fuck it, if it goes the other way, who cares? But the thing is, it's actually more on your side, that thing, because it's more Trump having to concede. He can hold on to power, it's not like Biden can just walk into the White House and just kick him out. I don't know, we'll figure it out.

American Hodl: Yeah, and the inauguration doesn't happen until January, 18th or something. I think we may have to just wait until the inauguration.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, we'll wait until that.

American Hodl: They re-swear in the current President, do they not? So that's what we'll have to wait for.

Peter McCormack: Phil, there is a void, so if Trump pulls out for any reason, health, death, whatever, the bet is void. To me, I still think that's a defeat, I think that's him admitting defeat. But you know...

American Hodl: If he dies? You think that's him admitting defeat?

Peter McCormack: Well, not die, if he pulls out for health reasons, I think that's him knowing he's going to lose.

Phil Geiger: In which scenario do I get the pot?

Peter McCormack: If the libertarian wins.

American Hodl: I'm going to have to think about that.

Phil Geiger: If a libertarian becomes President, then I get the pot!

American Hodl: That would be amazing.

Peter McCormack: I'm all right with that one. All right, cool, so what happens now? You're going to just send me some instructions?

Phil Geiger: Yeah, let's do it.

American Hodl: We're going to do it right now. That way if you have an issue, Phil can talk you through it.

Phil Geiger: Peter, I'm going to send you a line in the chat.

Peter McCormack: I think this is less exciting for the listeners.

Phil Geiger: All right, so everyone, go to this page.

American Hodl: Yep, I'm already there. Phil, we're going to do an address, not a wallet, right?

Phil Geiger: Yup, we're just going to build a single address, so Caravan lets you build a full wallet, where you would have multiple addresses, but for a bet like this, we just want one address, so from the help page, we'll select address, and then on the right side, let's change the address type to P2WSH. So that's the most up to date native Segwit address and then what we'll do is we'll contribute, or plug in our devices and produce public keys that we'll then share.

American Hodl: I'll go in public key slot 2. Pete, you can go in public key slot 3, does it matter?

Phil Geiger: No, it doesn't matter because you'll be sending me your actual key, and I'll use them to build the address.

Peter McCormack: Hold on a second, what am I doing here? Am I meant to be on the same screen as you?

Phil Geiger: Yep, so select address, and then down on the right side, select this P2WSH button, and now all you have to do is select this drop down, whatever you're using...

Peter McCormack: Hold on, but I don't see, which one am I doing? The public key one, two or three?

Phil Geiger: It doesn't matter, just do one.

American Hodl: Just pick one, one is fine.

Phil Geiger: I'll name it when you send me the data. All right, and then this method here, so select this drop down, and I'm using a Trezor, you guys might be using Ledgers, you just select whichever one you're using, then you hit import public key, so since I'm using a Trezor, I'm taken away from Caravan and I'm now speaking directly with Trezor.

Once this loads, I'll enter my data, so Trezor understands that I'm just sharing a public key. So we're never sharing private key data, that always stays offline. But public key data is okay to share with people you trust. I don't really trust you guys, but in this event it's okay!

Peter McCormack: Right, so make sure your Bitcoin app is open, your Ledger will display a message to reveal... Failed to sign in, so I'll try again.

American Hodl: Pete, if you have Ledger live running, that can sometimes cause that failure.

Peter McCormack: I've just got a thing popping up here saying confirm address. Is that correct? Do I confirm the address?

Phil Geiger: Yep, so go through, the Ledgers can get a little bit cranky with multisig, so they ask you like, "Hey, what are you doing? Is this okay?" You just have to click through and accept.

Peter McCormack: So the following public key was imported.

Phil Geiger: Yep, so that's your public key. So what you'll want to do now, is copy that and then share that with me in the chat.

Peter McCormack: All right, done it, all right here we go.

Phil Geiger: I just grabbed your key from the chat, so this is how you can collaborate with different people around the world, but Peter just sent me his public key in the chat box. I will enter it as text here, so I'll just paste this in, and then hit, just name this one Peter, and hit add. So the top one is my public key that I got from my Trezor, this is Peter's public key from his Ledger, and then the third key will be Hodl's key.

American Hodl: Mine should be in the chat for you, Phil.

Phil Geiger: All right, let me grab it from the chat. All right, there's Hodl, copying it, and then I'll just paste it as text and then I'm going to sort these, so there's a standard order that the public keys are sorted in, and here's our address, guys. So now, this address was produced using data shared from all three of us.

Peter McCormack:  Okay!

Phil Geiger: All right, so this is the information that I'll share with you guys but really now what we can do is we can send Bitcoin to this address for the bet.

American Hodl: Yep, if you could just post that in the chat and then Pete, you're going to want to keep all the stuff that Phil gives you. So you want to keep this witness script, BIP32 pass etc.

Phil Geiger: This is all of the address details, so this is how we constructed it and then you'll need that in order to be able to spend from the address. All right, so here I'm posting that information here, and that should all be kept. So the address details it's your financial information with the address details and without two private keys, you can't move the Bitcoin, but this type of thing should be secured in an encrypted document or in a password manager or somewhere behind a password.

Peter McCormack: What could someone do with it?

Phil Geiger: So what somebody can do with this is they can see the address, and they can see how the address is built. So what I'll show you now on Caravan is when we go through and we want to spend from the address, will just move this thing out of the way...

Peter McCormack: But they can't do anything with it? They can't steal the funds, right?

American Hodl: Not really, no.

Phil Geiger: Not steal the funds, but here, so I'm going to paste, let me just choose P2WSH, I'm going to paste this script in here, and what this script contains is the address we all built together, and it also contains all three of the public keys. So these are the three public keys that we submitted from our devices.

So it's quite a bit of financial information, they can see what's happening with the address, they can see how it was built, they can see that it is two out of three multisig address, but they can't steal any funds without having two private keys. So that's what's really nice about multisig is it separates the idea of, I like to just say it's the treasure map to be able to find the Bitcoin address, and to understand how to spend from it, from the keys to unlock the treasure, or launch the missile.

Peter McCormack: But me looking at this now, what you've shown me now, this to me is like a nerd toy, there is no way I would figure this out or even dare to use this on my own.

American Hodl: It's pretty easy actually Pete. I'm not that technical, I'm not like a Matt Odell or something, and I've set up my own multisigs using this tool, multiple times. It's very easy.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but there's going to be far easier ways of making something like this usable. All this stuff should just be abstracted away.

American Hodl: Using Unchained's service or Casa's service or one of the multisig providers' services is the easier way to do this.

Phil Geiger: The point of this tool is to be very transparent about everything that's happening. So yeah, you're right, it's not a streamlined service, but the three of us built a multisig address without ever meeting in person. That's pretty powerful right there!

Peter McCormack: That is neat, yeah.

Phil Geiger: And what you should do now, is with this redeem script, so I sent it to you guys, go to the script explorer page, and then paste it in and we'll confirm ownership of this address. So before we spend funds, we just want to make sure that our device does in fact hold one out of three keys. So now I'll confirm the ownership from my device and you just type confirm ownership and you select the type of hardware wallet you have.

Luckily for us, this pathway is the default for what we're building, so you don't have to paste anything else and then you just hit confirm. You go through on the Trezor stuff, and as you can see, there's a green check mark. So I know that my Trezor controls one out of three keys for this address.

Peter McCormack: Yeah cool, that worked! Okay, cool, so we're on. So where am I sending the Bitcoin to?

Phil Geiger: To this address. If you want, you can click on this button here and it takes you to Blockstream if you want to use their QR code to scan it.

Peter McCormack: No, I'll just do a... Do you a test send or you just do the whole thing?

American Hodl: Just do the whole thing bro, live a little!

Peter McCormack: All right, here we go then.

American Hodl: I got to make sure I actually typed in 50 million sats and not more than that.

Peter McCormack: So it's this BC1 address?

Phil Geiger: BCQAXMPUET and then the last digits are 5FSDTGDX0.

Peter McCormack: All right man, let's do this yeah. Okay, send. This shows how much of a fucking useless bastard I am!

American Hodl: I'm using Blockstream's green wallet and I have SMS two factor auth enablement and it's being slow as fuck.

Peter McCormack: Maybe you got some weird tool to steal all my money because you know I don't know what I'm doing.

American Hodl: This is an elaborate theft happening right now, we just Ocean's Elevened the fuck out of you bro for five grand!

Phil Geiger: If Bitcoin does what I think it's going to be doing, I think the bet will be worth a lot more by the end of the year.

American Hodl: Phil, what's your price prediction for the next two years? That's always fun.

Phil Geiger: Well early in March, when the price was at $5800 bucks, I said, "If Bitcoin doesn't at least triple by the end of the year, there is no objective reality." So by the end of the year, if Bitcoin's not at least $15,000 I probably will just get of the face of the planet.

American Hodl: By the way, it's not my sats, can I tell you that I was the guy who was like, "When Bitcoin is $100,000 I'm going to get up on the table wherever I am and scream, 'Eat my dick. I was right.'" Now with the current state of the world, I am going to be fucking silent as a church mouse, I'm not going to say anything to anybody! Except on Twitter, where I'm going to go super hard of course.

Phil Geiger: I don't own any Bitcoin except for when I steal the funds from this bet.

Peter McCormack: All right, cool, I've sent mine as well. Well listen, I think this is done, we're in place and we've got this going. Just before we close out, because I've got another interview after this, but Phil, you deserve the opportunity to tell people how they can find out more about Caravan and I appreciate you setting this up for us.

Phil Geiger: Sure! Caravan is free to use for anybody, so if you're just looking to try out multisig, or want to get a full wallet set up, I can send along the link and hopefully you can post it in the show notes. Otherwise you can find links at the Unchained Capital website, so unchained-capital.com and just for your listeners, we're a Bitcoin Native Financial Services Provider, so we use multisig as the custody solution to then be able to offer financial services and we use multisig in somewhat of a similar way, where keys are distributed, so as a client, you get to contribute key data and you can always know that your Bitcoin is super secure.

So we have custody, we have lending and then we also have the ability to buy a Bitcoin over the counter directly into your multisig vault. So definitely check us out if you are looking for Bitcoin services, and yeah, Caravan's free to use, try it out and give us some feedback, we'd love to see your suggestions.

Peter McCormack: Awesome! Hodl, thanks for the five grand in advance, appreciate it dude! I really appreciate you giving me that.

American Hodl: There's literally no way you're going to win dude!

Peter McCormack: We're not going to shut the fuck up about this.

American Hodl: As a long time What Bitcoin Did listener, I appreciate the rebate for all my attention I've given you!

Peter McCormack: All right guys, listen, this has been cool, we're going to get this out, I think people will enjoy listening to this and I think we've got a few months of shit stirring and shit talking before this is settled. So I appreciate it and take care guys.

Phil Geiger: Thanks a lot!

American Hodl: Take care!