WBD217 Audio Transcription

Bitcoin World #8: Bitcoin in Zimbabwe with Anita Posch

Interview date: Monday 3rd March 2020

Note: the following is a transcription of my interview with Anita Posch from Bitcoin & Co Podcast. I have reviewed the transcription but if you find any mistakes, please feel free to email me. You can listen to the original recording here.

In this interview, I talk to Anita Posch, Bitcoin podcaster, speaker and author. We discuss Anita’s recent trip to Zimbabwe, free speech & freedom of expression, scams & MLM, hyperinflation and if and how Zimbabweans are using Bitcoin.

“I’m into Bitcoin because of the possibility to support human rights and support people’s lives.”

— Anita Posch

Interview Transcription

Peter McCormack: Hello Anita, how are you?

Anita Posch: Hi Peter. I'm fine thanks and you?

Peter McCormack: Not bad, thank you. Just getting used to this new world of being locked to the house, inside a personal prison. So you're in Austria, how are things there? How are you coping with all this?

Anita Posch: I'm coping quite good because I'm really used to work from home, so it's not very much different for me. We are still allowed to go outside to do small walks, only alone or with your partner or the people who live in your house. The supermarkets are still fine. From this week on, it has been said that we may have to use masks when we go to the supermarket and I think the curve of new infections has slowed a little bit down, but we'll see. I think it will take longer. We're coping fine here, home office is okay as long as I'm allowed to go outside. We are two weeks now in, and I think it will be some more weeks.

Peter McCormack: Okay. You and I previous to this have both been zigzagging across the world. I was out in South America and you were in Africa, getting into the weeds, trying to meet people and using Bitcoin in places outside of our, let's say, more cosy, Western, first world lifestyles. Actually seeing how people in developing countries are doing, I've had some experiences and you've had some experiences, but let's start where this all started for you, the decision you made to travel out to Africa. Why did you want to do it?

Anita Posch: Yeah, that goes a long while back actually. I can remember when I was about 20 or something, I always thought about going to Africa to do, I don't know what, but to do something there I was always interested in. Then many years ago I met a friend and she went to Zimbabwe. She's living half of the year, the year there for the last three years, and she was there in the '90s. I always thought, "It would be nice to go to Zimbabwe to see how the life is there and how the living situation is there and stuff."

Then when I got into Bitcoin, of course the topic of Zimbabwe and Venezuela, countries with hyperinflation, that this would be the countries where Bitcoin would make the most sense. I always thought to myself, "Yeah, that's interesting, but do people really use Bitcoin there?" I just wanted to see for myself, you know? End of last year I thought, "Maybe now is the right situation or time to go there." So I started this project actually, to do this audio documentary.

Peter McCormack: Okay and how did you choose the actual places you wanted to go to?

Anita Posch: To be honest I've chosen it by chance, or how do you say that, where my friend took me. She lives in Harare, because you can't travel alone there, or I couldn't, as you can't rent a car. Like you think you go somewhere and rent a car, that's not possible, there is no public transport. There is public transport, but it's not for people like me.

There are no signs on the street, you don't know where you would have to go. Okay, there's Google Maps, but you have no road signs. So actually you really need someone to take you somewhere. She took me from Harare, which is the capital of Zimbabwe, to Bulawayo, which is a city north of Harare, and then we went to Victoria Falls.

Peter McCormack: Lovely!

Anita Posch: That was great, yeah. So I saw something from the countryside too, because being only in the city is quite different to see the country.

Peter McCormack: Okay, did you also only go with an interest in Bitcoin, or were you out there also observing other things? I'm pretty sure you have an interest in LBGT rights globally, was that another thing you were also observing, or was it just Bitcoin?

Anita Posch: I wasn't really observing that. I'm living in that.

Peter McCormack: I know! We've spoken about that before.

Anita Posch: Yeah, I can talk about it. In my first episode, in the first part of my Zimbabwe documentary on my podcast, I'm also talking about the situation. When Robert Mugabe still was president of Zimbabwe, he was a homophobe, and he said that homosexuals are worse than pigs. So the situation in general for human rights and free speech are disastrous. Zimbabwe as a country, there is no free speech. As such it's also for LGBTIQ people difficult. But people live it.

My friend is a lesbian too, she didn't really hide it because in the surroundings, her friends, they all know it. Also, I don't know, I asked her how she's dealing with that, because I also thought that might be difficult in a way, but she said it's not that difficult. How shall I say that? We have to live with that everywhere. In many countries in the Western world it's better, but we are just a minority actually.

Peter McCormack: Is that a fear for you when you travel? I know things are very different in the likes of the UK, the US, most of Europe, things have changed a lot. There's a lot more acceptance, a lot more equality with regards to your own personal freedom choices, free speech etc. But as you travel into different parts of the world, is it something you personally have to have a different kind of awareness of, or careful about or think about? If the question is ignorant, apologies! I'm not even sure how to word it.

Anita Posch: No, it's okay, it's everywhere. It starts when you're a woman, you're looking at the streets in another way. When you walk the street at night, you always think about, "Okay, there comes a guy, he's alone, that's weird." I go to the other side of the street. So it starts with being a woman and then, yes, of course... To be honest, I still don't really dare to touch my girlfriend when I'm out, also in Austria, but that's my personal thing. I'm... how shall I say? Maybe I'm too scared, or I'm just too aware of the bad things that can happen, and I don't want to put myself out.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I understand that.

Anita Posch: And of course even more in countries where you know that the LGTB rights are not good, of course I'm more aware there too. For me it's normal in a way, as I'm not used to touch my girlfriend outside and I wouldn't do that even more in Zimbabwe.

Peter McCormack: Okay, interesting.

Anita Posch: That's a stress permanent, actually.

Peter McCormack: All right, because I was actually meant... You know I was meant to be going out to Africa as well, at a similar time, ended up going to South America. But one of the places I was going to be going to was Uganda, which obviously has an issue with regards to gay rights as well. So I wasn't aware whether this is something you are observing at the same time when you're traveling. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Okay, so you went out to Zimbabwe, you had three weeks out there, talk me through some of the things you did, the people you met, some of your experiences.

Anita Posch: Okay, so most of the time I was in Harare, and then we took this road trip. In the last days I went then to Botswana. So in Harare I was learning by doing, in a way, because I wanted to know and to learn how people have to live there, and to see and also learn from them in the end how they are using Bitcoin at the moment, if they use it, and what would be something that we, as Westerners, could learn from them so that Bitcoin can be adopted better in Africa or in Zimbabwe.

So I did talk to many people, like I talked to a human rights activist, I talked to two Bitcoin traders or cryptocurrency traders, I talked with a woman who's a teacher and headmistress and also she's into digital... How shall I say? She calls herself a digital entrepreneur. Yeah, all of these people showed me different aspects of life and how it is. The situation, it starts with water. There is no water. In some areas of town you have water, but that's when you live close to the hospitals or close to the areas where the political elite lives, then you have water and electricity.

If you don't live there, you don't have water, so you have to save the rain water and shower in that one, or you have to buy water and every two weeks with a tank the water comes to you. But still, you have to pay the water bill, the same with electricity. Where I lived, we only had power from 11pm to around 4/5am in the morning. That means that people have to work by night, because if you cannot afford a solar panel and an inverter, you have to work by night, you have to cook by night, you have to iron by night, whatever.

Peter McCormack: What does that mean in terms of their phones? Do they have to be very prepared with charging their phones?

Anita Posch: Yeah, sure. You have to charge your phone overnight, otherwise you don't have power and the same with the internet connection, you never know when you have internet or not and it's expensive, not everybody can afford internet. That's also very interesting actually, because for Bitcoin wallets, most people don't have the money to buy an open internet account, meaning to use everything.

They can't surf the web because they only have WhatsApp bundle, for instance, or a social media bundle. So most people have those bundles and they are just not able to download a Bitcoin wallet, for instance. So that's a big thing, actually. Coming back to the situation, the living situation, when I was there and the months before, and I'm quite sure it's the same now, you can't get petrol.

So everybody's depending on cars, because you don't have trains or something like that. Everybody's depending on a car, and there's no petrol, so people queue for hours. They queue over night in front of the petrol station, never knowing when there will be petrol again.

Peter McCormack: But it's a supply issue, not a price issue?

Anita Posch: It's mainly a supply issue, yeah. The question is... Or maybe it has two reasons. One is that they don't have US dollars to buy petrol from outside, and the second assumption is... I mean, that it's on purpose. That there is like a political mafia, and I was told that they drain everything out of the country. All the natural resources, everything this country has, is going to the political elite.

That's the same with medical supplies and stuff. I read a Tweet today where somebody said, "Our government has more Land Rovers and SUVs than we have COVID tests" and with this corona crisis even more, it's even worse. People have nothing there, and now this comes in.

Peter McCormack: We'll come to that. I've actually got a show coming out today on Defiance about coronavirus in Kenya, and the rural time bomb that's about to hit Africa. Just talk to me about what's the state of the economy now, post-Mugabe? Has the currency stabilized in any way at all?

Anita Posch: No. When I came, the official exchange rate from the so-called RTGS, so that's the Zimdollar, it's the official currency at the moment, is called RTGS, which is actually a little bit funny because it's really called Real Time Gross Settlement, so it's the money on your bank account, to US dollar. When I came was the official bank rate was 1 to 17, and the rate on the street was 1 to 23. Two and a half weeks later, the rate on the street was 1 to 40 or 35 or something.

So only in two and a half weeks, the currency lost a lot of value in just this short time, which leaves people who only have RTGS behind of course. If you have access to US dollar, everything gets cheaper. If you only have RTGS, everything goes more expensive day by day. The average income is about $200/300 a month, but I also got to know people, and that's the bigger part of Zimbabweans, they don't have any formal job. I think 90% of the people in Zimbabwe don't have any formal job, so they live from hand to mouth.

They use EcoCash. EcoCash is something like M-Pesa, it's mobile money on your phone. The great thing with EcoCash is you can use an old Nokia phone or a smartphone and you don't have to pay in advance. So you can earn EcoCash on your mobile phone if you have nothing on your phone, you know what I mean?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, but what is the currency itself? Is it its own currency or is it...

Anita Posch: Yes, so they have the currency which is called RTGS or Zimbabwe dollar and the other thing is when I came it was said it's only allowed to use RTGS. But when I went to the border and got my visa and I had to pay $40 for it. So government fees...

Peter McCormack: Of course, they want the dollar.

Anita Posch: Yeah, exactly!

Peter McCormack: How dollarized is the economy? Because it sounds very similar to my experience in Venezuela, in that there is the bolivar, which you have to have and you have to use the bolivar, but a lot of people are using the dollar. I imagine the government used the dollar quite a bit, certainly in East Caracas, in the wealthier area, people want the dollar. So people want the dollar, but they also have to have the bolivar and use that as well. Is that similar?

Anita Posch: Exactly, yeah. People want the dollar. They know the differences, they know that the dollar can retain its value and they've lived through so many changes in their currency, like in 2016 or something, I may be wrong with the year now, the government said, "No more US dollar, you're not allowed to use US dollar anymore" and they changed the US dollar accounts of people into RTGS accounts at par, at 1 to 1. They said, "It's 1 to 1, don't worry." But of course people knew that these RTGS will lose its value, and now it's just 1 to 43.

So they are forced to use RTGS because they have to pay school fees in RTGS for instance, or public transport with these small minibuses. But of course they would rather have US dollar, but US dollars is more a thing of the middle class, the people who earn more. The general public, they won't never get US dollar. Dollarization, I wouldn't say... I have more the feeling that there are no dollars around. They don't have dollars to buy stuff from abroad.

Peter McCormack: And if most people don't have a formal job, did you say the percentage?

Anita Posch: Yeah, I think it's 95% or something.

Peter McCormack: Okay, so what does the daily survival look like? How are people coping, getting by, making money, getting food?

Anita Posch: They hustle.

Peter McCormack: It's all a hustle?

Anita Posch: It's all a hustle. Every day a hustle. People buy handkerchiefs in the supermarket and then go outside on the streets and sell it there or they roast corn cobs on the side of the streets, or something like that. It's really a hustle, day by day.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay and is that just street markets? Is it similar to almost any developing country I've been to where a lot of kind of street markets pop up and there's a lot of person-to-person trade?

Anita Posch: Yes, of course. It's person-to-person street markets, people are standing on the side of the street, selling fruits and stuff or things that they've collected and rebuilt. I also saw people selling... How is it called in English, small swimming pools, that you can blow up, they sell it on the side of the streets. Yeah, I think it's comparable. What I want to say also, to the currency, one of the problems is also you can't get hold of bond notes.

Bond notes is the paper money, and you can't get them. It's difficult, people queuing in front of banks to get bond notes, as there is no money in the ATMs, for instance. Up until 2015 there was money in the ATMs, but now they are empty. Also people don't use credit cards because it's so difficult to get money out of the banking system again.

You can collect money with a credit card, like if you are a pizzeria or a restaurant, you can use it to get money, to earn it, but the hassle to get the money back out as paper money or as US dollar is so high that they don't do that. So credit cards are not accepted in most of the shops or restaurants. Nobody's using them.

Peter McCormack: Wow, what about the elite? Again, when I went to Venezuela, there is the majority of the population and then there is the middle and upper classes who are coping and getting by. Are the elite government workers, or is there private businesses that also are not struggling such as these kind of lower classes are?

Anita Posch: This is just a guess, but yes, it's true, there's also the big part of the general population hustling every day. Then you have a middle class, I think they also hustle, but most of the time I think they have jobs with bigger corporate companies or banks and stuff and there are many people, I think, who live from money from outside, like international workers, workers or employees from agencies like the UNO or health organizations. Then there is the political upper class and I think they really live off the people and they rip them off.

We were at a vegetable stand and bought some fruits, and there was a guy and I said to him... Because it's also a thing, 85% of all transactions are digital, and the government takes a 2% fee on every digital transaction. If you're rich or poor, you pay this 2%. This guy said to me, "They are ripping us off." So the government is ripping us off. I think that's the thing that happens.

Peter McCormack: It sounds so similar to Venezuela in that you have a local currency which is struggling and losing value due to inflation on a weekly basis, you have people wanting the dollar, but struggling to get access to it, but they definitely want it. You have a huge amount of inequality. You have an elite who are essentially corrupt and using the nation, but you also said, which is something that surprised me in Venezuela, is that the majority of the economy is digitized in terms of the money. Most people are using digital money and not physical money.

I think one of the reasons that exists is... Well, maybe it's similar in Zimbabwe, is that the money is inflating so quickly it's too expensive to keep reprinting and chopping zeros off the notes. So it's much easier to digitize the money. It sounds a really, really similar situation. Okay, so based on that, what was your experience specifically with Bitcoin? Where is it being used and how is it being used?

Anita Posch: My experience was that everybody I talked with almost, knows what Bitcoin is. Let's say it that way, the white people I talked to, some of them also have a history with Bitcoin. They went into it in 2016, 2017 when there was the hype, they know about it, some of them also hold it. I have not met someone, to be honest, from the white people now, from the Europeans or Americans, who told me that they would use it to buy something or to pay something. But I've met with those two to three people who already used Bitcoin.

There is one online entrepreneur, he told me he got into Bitcoin 2013 or something, when he was researching about possibilities to earn money online. He's doing online marketing now and he also has a very good knowledge about Bitcoin. I also have interviewed him. He's using it to earn money, yes, he's doing digital work, affiliate marketing for companies abroad, and he earns in Bitcoin. He also wants to earn in Bitcoin because of course he knows about the differences of Bitcoin to the local currency.

What I found interesting is that the usage of Bitcoin there, of course people need US dollar or local money to buy things, to pay their rent. I think you also talked about that, in South America it's the same. People need the US dollar, they can't hold Bitcoin, they can't save because they need it for their daily lives. So the possibility to exchange Bitcoin to US dollar or local currency is very important.

People do that peer to peer, because in Zimbabwe the regulation says, "Cryptocurrency is bad." It's outlawed, actually. They shut down the only exchange that there was in Zimbabwe, which was called Golix, they shut it down. So people exchange in peer-to-peer groups, they have WhatsApp groups or Facebook groups, and there they exchange Bitcoin to US dollar or local currency.

Peter McCormack: So what is the profile of the people using Bitcoin though? My experience in Venezuela is that it was not used by the poorer, the lower class, almost entirely. Now it's not to say there aren't, I just didn't meet anybody. It was the middle class who were using it as a way of earning money. They would use it to earn money, whether it's trading or mining and they would hold their wealth in Bitcoin and every week they would transfer out what they need in terms of bolivars, on a weekly basis. But it was a tool of the middle class. What was your experience?

Anita Posch: Yes, actually the same. I think that really the poor people, they can't afford... I mean you also have to have the education, you know. As I said before, they have EcoCash and they're using EcoCash on their phones because they can't afford internet access. When you earn $10 a month, how can you pay internet access for $30? It's not possible. So it's the middle class and also people who are more educated, people who like to do digital stuff, like programmers or online entrepreneurs like the people I met. And yes, the elite in a way, who have heard from Bitcoin many years ago and definitely use it as an asset.

Peter McCormack: Do you think there's any opportunity for Bitcoin with the lower class and the poorer people? I'll tell you my view on Venezuela afterwards, but did you think there's any opportunity?

Anita Posch: I think yes, but it's difficult. I think the first thing that there should be is a possibility to earn little amounts of Bitcoin, like earn Lightning. There's a great project, I think it's called Stack Work, you can earn Lightning doing click work, like micro tasks on your smartphone. I've seen many, many people, also the poorer ones I think, with smartphones. So I think the higher problem is the internet connection. This Stack Work project, for instance, you do not have to know anything about Lightning or Bitcoin, you can just use it and then you go and pay out the sats you earned over Bitrefill into airtime for your phone.

In Zimbabwe and also in Botswana it's possible to send the sats you earned over Stack Work to Bitrefill and your phone gets a new refill. People need the airtime and they sell everything, so you could also sell your airtime, I guess. So I think it's a possibility, but Bitcoin projects have to think about the properties around. The developers, I think, need to know that it's not possible to have internet and that people have to earn money. They can't buy Bitcoin, they have to earn it in a way. So I think that would be the way to adoption in a way.

Peter McCormack: Okay, so my thing about it is that I noticed in Venezuela a couple of things. People are living on less than $5 a month, so one of the issues is transaction fees and the base chain fees are almost unusable. Also, there's a high risk if they buy any Bitcoin, the volatility will be very damaging to them. A 10% fall in... For example, over the last month, that would be devastating for somebody on a monthly basis.

Obviously it can be good when it goes up, but devastating when it goes down. There really needs to only be Lightning based Bitcoin for most of these people just because of the transaction fees. The other thing I noticed is there's no culture of saving because most people are living hand to mouth every month, barely scraping by.

To even consider trying to teach them about what is now really the most common narrative, is that Bitcoin is a savings technology, the hodl, to try and teach some people about this new volatile currency that is a savings technology is kind of alien to people who are really struggling month by month to get by. The problem in somewhere like Venezuela, it is the majority of the population.

Anita Posch: Yeah, I see that too. There is another thing in Africa or in Southern Africa that we Westerners or Europeans are not used to. We always say, "Bitcoin is freedom money, it's self-sovereignty, it's individualism" but this doesn't work in Southern Africa. People have a community sense and the community is the first and foremost thing. They are... How shall I say? They are responsible for their community. Everything you do, you have to share it with your community. All the money you earn, everything, you're responsible.

So the branding for Bitcoin, in a way, or also in the opinion of people there, not be: it's money for individualists or a hedge against the system. It should be more like it's supporting the community, it's good for the community, it's helping the community to buy machines or to build a borehole because we need water. I think the naming or the branding, in a way, if you can say so of as people who try to get Bitcoin knowledge out and about, should be more like it's community money, it's helping, and not more of these alternative, like the we-don't-need-the-government stuff.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so when people talk about Bitcoin saving Venezuela, what the people in Venezuela need is better governance and a removal of a leadership which is essentially controlling the guns and controlling the country. That's what the people need. I know the libertarians don't even believe in democracy, but I believe the next step for Venezuela's democracy and good governance and a removal of corruption, that's the most important thing for the people of that country right now, not Bitcoin.

Anita Posch: Exactly and it's the same in Zimbabwe. But I guess, with all those currency controls and money-sending controls, people immediately understand what you're talking about. They want to try it. The interest is there in the sense that people want to get educated. The problem is in 2017, there were so many scams that were built on Bitcoin, I mean we know we always talk about these scams, so that people really relate to Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as something bad.

So there is so much education and awareness needed before it could really set off in a way, that I think that it's really important to do some educational stuff there, support people because they also can't watch YouTube videos. Everybody says, "Yeah, watch a YouTube video to learn about Bitcoin." People can't watch YouTube there, it's not possible. If we want that people in Zimbabwe and other African countries to use Bitcoin, we maybe should support them in that way, that we collaborate with them, ask them how they feel it could get more awareness and work together with them.

Peter McCormack: Yeah and also, by the way, one thing I should say is that even though I'm dismissing its practical use for people who don't have very much money, that's not to say we should ignore the fact that there are middle and upper classes in these countries. We shouldn't demonize anybody who has escaped poverty. If they've escaped poverty and living under inflation, they too should and deserve the right to use Bitcoin to battle against that themselves.

My view on it is that these numbers of people are very, very small. Also, I do think there is the opportunity for some form of remittance. People who are leaving Venezuela or Zimbabwe to go out and earn money, they can potentially use Bitcoin to send money back. That is an opportunity. But like you've said, people don't have the mobile phones or the data contracts or the ability to receive it back.

So I think the nuance of it is really important. Did you notice any other blind spots with regards to Bitcoins? I'll give you one example. I think a big blind spot globally, especially in third world places is key management. When I was in El Salvador, we had people living in mud huts, so I can't see them having a BillFodl hidden where they live. So I think key management is a bit of a blind spot. Did you notice any other blind spots?

Anita Posch: I would say yes, you're right, key management is really difficult. There is also a thing in Zimbabwe, even the guy I talked with who's into Bitcoin since many years, he has never seen a hardware wallet before. I brought some hardware wallets and card wallets and a Raspiblitz to Zimbabwe and Africa, and this guy, he has never seen a hardware wallet before because you can't get it there.

For most people, of course, it's much too expensive, but I think this is also a blind spot, that we don't support those countries with hardware or things that they can even afford. How do you want to buy a hardware wallet when you only earn $10 a month?

Peter McCormack: So key management and... Because one of the things is, even if you manage to give it somebody and they saved up a bit of Bitcoin, it could at some point be worth quite a bit. But if in that process you haven't had the ability to put in place your own secure procedures for key management and security, you're running a high risk.

Anita Posch: Yeah, that's true. I've been to such a place, where I talk about the mud huts, we bought a chicken there and first and foremost I couldn't imagine actually that people there use Bitcoin now. I mean for what?

Peter McCormack: In terms of you run a couple of classes, you ran a couple of introduction talks...

Anita Posch: Oh yeah.

Peter McCormack: What kind of people came to that? Did you have a chance to chat to any of the people come in? Was it a broad spectrum of people coming?

Anita Posch: To be honest no actually, because the first thing was in Harare it was at the co-working space, and when I got there they had Facebook-developer meetup on the Saturday and they said, "Okay, it's fine, it's great that you're here. Yes, talk about Bitcoin." So actually I think this group was 60, 70 people, mainly very young people, developers, people interested in digital stuff, people interested in start-ups. So it was a very digital native community.

They liked it a lot, but they also... I mean there was one guy, he said, "I would like to have such a hardware wallet. I can't afford that, how can I get that?" But I also had the feeling that there are some people who use it, who are educated about it, but it's really just a handful maybe, because people don't trust it. They don't trust it. They've heard from so many scams. I had the feeling that these young people who are working digitally are really interested because they can also earn from abroad. There's a website, it's called afriblocks.com, where you can find freelancers from Zimbabwe and you can then pay them digitally. So that was one of those meetups.

The second meetup I did, that was in Gaborone, in Botswana, the town where Bitcoin lady Alakanani Itireleng is doing her Satoshicentre since 2014. She's doing meetups there regularly and is educating people about Bitcoin. So those people there were already interested in Bitcoin and did know a little bit about it, but we still, we installed Bitcoin wallets on their phone and Alakanani then sent them small amounts of money to their phones, and they really liked it. They were very enthusiastic. There were also people from Zimbabwe who are now living in Botswana. I think the young generation really knows about the positive sides.

Peter McCormack: Right, okay. Was your experience here in Zimbabwe... Do you believe that's a lens for much of Africa with regards to Bitcoin?

Anita Posch: Yes and no, because I think in Zimbabwe, the situation, what people have lived through, is worse than in other African countries. But I have to say I have never been to many other... I've been to South Africa 10 years ago, so I can't really say that, to be honest. But from the currency side, from this changing of currency and ripping people's money off, like stealing their pensions and stuff, I think people are really more sensible there to money and to understand that Bitcoin can be a hedge against in that way.

Peter McCormack: Okay, can you talk to me about the scams that you're aware of there? Because I've heard about quite a few scams proliferating through Africa with regards to cryptocurrencies. Also naturally, I'm also aware because of the OneCoin show I did, there was a lot of exploitation across Africa.

Anita Posch: Yeah OneCoin is definitely a thing there. I think a big thing in Zimbabwe also was MMM. In 2017 there were many people scammed by MMM, which is a pyramid scheme I think. The profiteers of this pyramid scheme, of this MMM, then seemed to have used Golix as an exchange and then...

There's a story about a website which is called BeForward, there you can buy old Japanese cars, and that's interesting because nobody here in Europe buys a car over a website, but most people or many people in Zimbabwe do. So they paid in Bitcoin there and many people used Golix to change to Bitcoin and then they bought cars there. Through the scams, through MMM, many people reported these scams to the police and the central bank then said, "You're doing that on your own risk."

Then they closed Golix down. I think there might be two reasons. The one reason is, okay, they really didn't want their people to lose their money to the scam, but on the other hand of course the central bank does not want people to use cryptocurrencies because they know it's used to send money outside the country. If they can't get a hold of it, then they don't want it in the country.

Peter McCormack: I understand. You also went to Botswana, right?

Anita Posch: Yes.

Peter McCormack: How was the experience there different?

Anita Posch: I've only been three or four days to Botswana and only to the city, but there's a big difference. Botswana is, how shall I say, it's more solid. It's better off than Zimbabwe, there is not so much corruption and the average income is a little bit higher, I think. So I think life is a bit better there, but only relative to Zimbabwe. People still struggle.

Peter McCormack: So similar but different.

Anita Posch: Yeah, a little bit better, I would say.

Peter McCormack: Okay, how would you summarize your whole experience? What were the biggest takes you had from it? Also, let me add that has it changed your thinking with regards to Bitcoin at all?

Anita Posch: Hmm, I was not aware of the problems people have with the internet connection there, so that it's not so easy to install a wallet, for instance. I of course wasn't aware... I mean I was always told, "We don't have water, we don't have petrol", but it's different when you see it for yourself or you have to live through it. It really changed my perspective on Zimbabwe in a way, because now I really felt this depression, you know?

Peter McCormack: Yeah, I know exactly how you feel.

Anita Posch: People are depressed there. There is mass depression, I was told, because since 40 years this country has only gone worse. The colonization, of course is a bad thing in a way yeah, but in the '80s, in the '90s, this country had everything. They had hospitals, they had rails, working trains and it was the breadbasket of the whole Africa and now everything is different.

Peter McCormack: Well the parallels with Venezuela are so similar, because Venezuela was at one point the richest country in South America, so the parallels between the two are quite clear. For me it's a real highlight of how poor governance can destroy a country, how a dictator can destroy the hopes and the dreams of millions of people.

Anita Posch: Yeah definitely, because this teacher, she also told me this corruption is now a part of the society. It's everywhere. To get that back to a less corrupt society, is difficult. It's sad because people... That's the upside, people are so nice, so open, so kind. As soon as you are there, you're a part of their family, in a way. That's really the point, that's also what many people told me when I asked them, "Why do you stay here? If you have the possibility to leave the country, why do you stay?" Because of the people, and the climate of course, but mostly because of the people.

My friend also told me, when I said, "Why do you stay there? It's so hard, why?" She said, "Yeah, it's hard, but on the other hand you don't have so much regulation like here, so you can try out new things all the time. You can or you have to invent yourself." People who hustle have to invent themselves every day new. That's one of the things, the people and the country and the resources that are there. With this now corona, I mean... what shall I say? It's only getting worse.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, so what was the status when you left? Because we were at similar times... I'm trying to remember, but as far as I remember where at the point where we were starting to see the first few cases of coronavirus outside of China. I think we had the first one of these cruise lines that was having quite a spread, I think it was in Japan, perhaps Taiwan, but we were starting to see the first stories. But there was no coronavirus as I'm aware at that point in... And I'm not sure about the whole of South America, but certainly not Venezuela. But now things are very different. What was the situation when you were there?

Anita Posch: When I came, at the beginning of February, in Europe on Twitter we already had this discussions, that it's coming and it will be difficult. So when I got there, my fever was measured twice, once in South Africa in Johannesburg at the airport, and then also at the airport in Harare.

Peter McCormack: Let me ask you, did you have anything in Austria when you got back?

Anita Posch: No. That's the funny thing, when I got back, three weeks later... I flew from Harare to Gaborone and in Gaborone I had to fill out a form also, so that was one step up, but when I left four days later, there was nothing.

Peter McCormack: I had the same. When I got to El Salvador, my temperature measured and I had to fill in a form. When I got back to Heathrow, there was nothing. Look, the government said that these takings of the temperature are not useful for stopping the spread, but I don't know. There was something here... I don't know either way. I was just surprised that we weren't doing anything.

Anita Posch: Yeah, me too. But on the other hand, when I got there, nobody was talking about that in Africa. People wondered, "Why are there no cases in Africa and Zimbabwe?" I thought to myself, "Yeah, there are no test kits, how would you know? How would you know how many cases there are in countries like that?" Even we don't know.

Peter McCormack: Have you followed up? Do you know what the status is now? Because I know they've started the lockdown, right?

Anita Posch: Exactly, they started the lockdown and I think from today on for the next 21 days. But I think it's very difficult in a society that lives from hand to mouth to close people in. Off what should they live now if they can't work? I've seen it's also in India, it's the same, people are leaving the cities, like thousands of them, going home to the countryside, to the communities where they come from.

So I guess this will spread the virus. Also, the other thing where you again see that this is not a free country, they don't have free speech. Not a minister, but the Secretary of Information has stated also on Twitter a statement by the government that it's illegal, or you can have a fine up to one year in prison, if you say something what's not right about corona online, on social media and stuff.

Peter McCormack: Yeah, that's concerning! We've seen something similar in Hungary with the change to the laws there. The lady I interviewed in Africa, like I said, the thing she said to me, again, which stood out, was that people would rather die of starvation than from the virus and this is because I think Africa is used to viruses and illnesses a little bit more than say we are in the UK. I don't know the exact country specifically for Ebola, but Ebola is something that's left a scar and a fear across Africa.

But there's cholera, there's AIDS, there's various things that spread. So there is this kind of natural fear, but she said, "Look, these people have got nothing, you can't tell them just to go and self-isolate for a month without having any food." It's not like us, they can't just go to the supermarket and stock up on some food and just sit in their house or take their daily trip to the supermarket.

Anita Posch: Yeah exactly and you can't buy stuff online. I mean you can't buy online food. We have delivery here, but they don't.

Peter McCormack: I have a huge, significant fear for what's going to happen in third world countries now, with people told... I mean people will just have to defy the stay-at-home orders because they will not have the ability to eat. We're talking about potential starvation here, so I think people will just defy it, and we'll see a lot of social unrest, a lot of clashes between security forces and the people.

We've seen essentially quite a civilized response in the West. I've seen some outbreaks of social unrest in Italy and I'm certain we'll see more. We've seen some in China, but I think the social unrest in third world countries will be on a different scale to what we're experiencing.

Anita Posch: Maybe, I don't know. But the hoarding has started yes, so people were allowed last week to go into the supermarket only in blocks of 20 people and stuff. Mealie meal, the basic staple diet, was sold out again. You can't get it anyhow, but now it's even more difficult. So there are people who buy mealie meal if it's available, go outside the store and sell it for three times the price or something.

Peter McCormack: Just back to one of my other questions, sorry, I'm not sure if you fully answered it, but has this experience changed your or shifted your worldview on Bitcoin at all?

Anita Posch: Not really, because I'm into Bitcoin because of the possibility to support human rights and support people's lives, so it actually has strengthened the idea of that it is a good tool for that, or it would be. Of course it gets you a little bit on the bottom when you realize that's just a handful of people maybe, or 200 or 300 people in a country of 16 million that are using Bitcoin at the moment.

They tell you they trade with it and I think, "Okay, hmm." But on the other hand if it's a possibility for you to earn some money, then that's fine too, I hope you do earn some money and not lose. But actually it just has strengthened my idea of that being a good tool. But, yeah, it will take time, yeah.

Peter McCormack: Cool. So what is the plan next. Where do you want to go next? Do you think about anything else?

Anita Posch: At the moment I can't think about anything else because we don't know when this will stop. But actually I was invited to a conference, to speak there in November, in Zimbabwe, and I would really love to go. Also the plan would be maybe to do a conference with Alakanani Itireleng in Botswana.

She wants to invite the government people also, to educate them about Bitcoin, but yeah, we'll see. This would be the next bigger thing. Now, since all the conferences and everything are cancelled or postponed, I have no plans at the moment, actually. What are your plans?

Peter McCormack: Well, the same! I'm just stuck at home, so focusing everything on doing the things from here, which is disappointing because I've obviously done my first couple of films and I was getting quite into making films now, so I can't do them right now, which is a shame. I'm not sure if you've seen either of mine yet, but I...

Anita Posch: Oh, I have seen one or two of yours, they are great I think. It's the same for me. It would have been yesterday, I think, I would have had my first talk on a big Bitcoin conference, the one in San Francisco. So I'm really like, "Wow" and now I did this huge effort of this travel and this report and stuff, and now everything is cancelled. But I mean we're all in this together, so yeah.

Peter McCormack: Okay, fantastic. Well listen, look, it's been pretty good to know you over this last... it's about a year now, right?

Anita Posch: I think it's longer, isn't it? I'm not sure.

Peter McCormack: Even longer? I can't remember, Bitcoin years are funny, they are hard to measure. But I've known you for quite some time now, we've hung out a few events and it's been great to get to know you. I think you do fantastic work, and I appreciate you going out into the actual field to see what's going on in other places.

I think it's really important that we do that and it'll be nice to see more of that. So I really appreciate everything you do, and I'm glad I've got you as a friend. But yeah, so tell people how to find out more about what you do or you were about to say something? Have I interrupted you?

Anita Posch: Yeah, I want to add something. I can only say the same back to you. Thank you very much and also you were the reason why I could go there because you were the first one who said, "I pay the flights, I pay the flights for you." I'm very thankful for you because this was the reason why this all really took off. Thanks for that.

Peter McCormack: No worries, I think you would have found a way anyway!

Anita Posch: Maybe. But you know sometimes you need people who support you in the right moment, and that was that.

Peter McCormack: Well I've had a lot of people support me, so it was not a problem. I knew it was important for you to go out there. So look, I appreciate what you're doing, I'm glad to have you as a friend, tell people how to find your work Anita.

Anita Posch: Great thanks! They can find my podcast on every big or also small podcast player. It's Bitcoin & Co, and the website is also bitcoinandco.com. They can also write me an email to hello@anitaposch.com. I'm also at Twitter and on all the other platforms.

Peter McCormack: Brilliant! Okay, well listen, look, good luck with everything you do, stay in touch, stay healthy, stay safe and anything you ever need, you know you can reach out to me.

Anita Posch: Thank you very much Peter. Thanks for this time!